Darkness_Falls

In case anyone new or adventurous wishes to try their hand at mapping and didn't know, Springheel made several cool tutorial videos a while back to get you up and running TDM New Mappers Workshop I thought this might be a good thread to remind folks of the existence of those tutorials

Suprisingly, the early Thiefs (at least Thief 2, that I know of) puts the ambient music *and* several environmental sounds in the Ambient Volume slider. Turn the 'music' down or off and you're, effectively, losing out on a lot of environmental sound color. For example, lower that volume slider and you won't hear several sounds very well or at all, like fire crackling, crickets chirping, tesla-like machines whirring, wind blowing, droning white noise in mansions (like when you first enter the mansion in Running Interference), etc. Yes, the sounds in Thief games were vital and nothing short of stellar, but the implementation wasn't perfect since we can't turn off ambient 'music' without removing environmental sounds that are there to help make a realistic soundscape. I've always wished the volume of the 'music' in Thief 1/2 could be controlled completely separately from the environmental sounds. When I first started playing Thief, I really hated that I couldn't turn the music down or off (since I'd lose out on environmental sounds). Like in 'Shipping & Receiving' and 'Framed', the music can be pretty overwhelming when playing for the first time. In retrospect, though, I'm really glad I didn't miss out on Eric Brosius & company's wonderful music/ambient gems. They are such a huge part of the experience for me now. For instance, the music in Framed has some of my favorite sounds of the game... but I once hated them, as they were grating to the ears. That is why I cringe when blind "Let's Play"-ers on YouTube substantially decrease the Ambient Volume slider on Thief 1/2 in order to lower the music volume a lot; they often don't realize they're losing out on various environmental sounds... and they maybe don't realize the music/ambients can be crucial the overall enjoyment of the game as they help define the atmosphere and mood quite well. Dangit, I wish Brosius and the Thief 1/2 audio crew would make more audio like that as side projects. Maybe for fan missions... or for the community... or just for fun... or to sell... etc. Re-acquire similar synth equipment they used and crank out more ambient goodness.

Thanks for the info, Petike! I put some simple audio to my logo video, so when I find it, I will share. I didn't have access to much free audio, couldn't really create my own, and I was looking for a quick audio fix... so, don't expect much Also, come to think of it, I think my splash Broken Glass Studios logo video idea was maybe more a thought for putting as a front bumper or end bumper to teaser trailer releases, but with the obvious possible side benefit of putting in the game startup sequence. Been a while; can't remember exactly. But please have comfort in knowing it was never seriously considered as a possibility for the game startup and not discussed much (at least during my time in the TDM weeds) In my mind, yes, it was (seriously considered), since I've always loved splash screen logos and videos for games, TV shows, and movies. If done well, they resonate with me and become nostalgic goodness. For most others in the world, though, I think it's probably an eye-rolling experience to have to endure or click through such things Admittedly, I also, eventually, grow tired of having to click through such splash screens for games. Regardless, the Dark Mod logo, gears, banners, and other visual delights in the game and in trailers was and is, arguably, enough awesomeness to please the soul. EDIT: It wasn't easy, but I finally found the test videos! The audio was the best I could do at the time; I didn't find very many sound options on the interwebs, lol. I've uploaded them here tonight. Remember, I did these back in probably the mid- or late-2000s and was new to 3D modeling/animating and it was just for fun or inspiration. I think the crackling fire sound was meant to be a crackling torch, if I'm not mistaken; and I probably wanted to have firelight dancing on the glass/lettering, but had no clue how to do that back then. The coloring of the glass was also supposed to try and be somewhat representative of a moonlit night... Splash Screen v3 - Splash Screen v1 - Same as above, but is longer and has footsteps and a blackjacking thud mid-way through: Splash Screen v2 - A more subtle version, in terms of glass hit strength:

I never knew that spyglass story regarding LGS. Pretty awesome! To be honest, I never knew that a looking glass was *not* a spyglass; but now I know, thanks to the LGS logo debacle, lol I tried to find the video for my logo tonight, but couldn't locate yet. Will try again tomorrow in some other places. I have it somewhere. I was envisioning a splash screen or video while the mod loaded sort of thing for my eventual logo or video. Knowing the modding community, though, I felt a splash screen/clip would not be received very well and the idea quickly nixed (i.e., "Why do we have to sit through or click past a promotional logo or clip?? This isn't nVidia or EA. Take me to the game already!") I was very new to doing 3D stuff back then, so my attempt was mainly just for fun. Although, I really wanted a BGS logo. HMart's re-design of the logo posted earlier is pretty sweet for a quick test

No need to get upset My bubble isn't burst, since I have no idea what that campaign is, never played it, never heard of it, wasn't on my mind or subconscious when I thought of it, never discussed it, and was never brought up in any Dark Mod discussions prior to me proposing it, etc. I, honestly, have never heard of the name ever being used anywhere except for The Dark Mod at any point prior or since me bringing it up; and I was involved with or read pretty much every non-coding Dark Mod discussion thread there was early on. I'm not upset because word combinations and wordplay exists for practically everything. And going from Looking Glass Studios to Broken Glass Studios is not that far of a stretch, to be honest. Perhaps it's just a simple case of, "Great minds think alike." It's difficult, if not impossible, to have a 100% truly unique/original idea in this world. Is there a chance you thought of it and used it in 2000 before I did in 2004 or whenever it was? Of course. Just as it's possible someone else did before you. But, like I said, I have no idea what that campaign is. I've seen and played very few mods compared to what exists; and that name alone, "Tricksters Gem Mine," I can assure you I would not have played or given it any time of day. I'm not saying it's a bad name, don't get me wrong. It's just that it's implying a map/level/story design that I wouldn't have found appealing back then or pre-Dark Mod. So, as it pertains to The Dark Mod, and the origins of Broken Glass Studios as it pertains to The Dark Mod -- which this thread is about -- I can, unequivocally, say that the original thought/concept/impetus/derivation was not a broken spyglass. And it was not brought up in any discussions I ever saw; and not brought up in the thread where we were talking about naming our team until I mentioned it; and I doubt it would be found in any TDM developmental thread prior to me bringing it up. (Current mod members could probably easily confirm this through searches of the forum.) If you conversed with Fingernail, it was probably after we took our vote to use the name. Fingernail was very rarely ever involved in our discussions, and perhaps after we chose Broken Glass Studios, maybe he or someone other team member did a Google search and found your campaign -- or knew of it based on their experiences -- and so thought to ask you about it. Hard to say. I can only speak from my perspective on my proposal for how the team got named. Fingernail never asked me about it or suggested it to the team as a whole before I mentioned it. It's really cool you thought of the name for your purpose. Very nice! Looking Glass Studios seems to have inspired both of us in our own unique ways. I'm glad we can pay tribute to them, as you and I have separately done with our naming homages.

Not a problem! Thanks for double-checking Trust me, you have contributed so much more to this mod than me, have 37,000+ posts to my measly 2,500, and have been a gateway for and a participant in so many more conversations than me over the years that I couldn't imagine being able to keep track of every little detail like that. Much easier for me Can't believe it's been 15 years!? Did you *have* to write *that*?!! Hahaha. Wow, time flies. Regarding stumpy's comment of, "It was supposed to be a broken spyglass"... I'd have to say, "No, it wasn't" It wasn't as simple as that, and that's not the thought process I went through, from what I can remember. It was probably one of the side adventures my mind went through or visions I saw when I thought of the various benefits of the name, but it wasn't really the trigger for the name. The name has always meant several different things encapsulated in the one name; never just one thing like solely "a broken spyglass."

Not true, I'm afraid I thought of the name, actually. I proposed it along with other possibilities, we held a vote, and it was decided to be the one we would go with. I don't have access to the dev forum anymore to dig up that post and the ensuing discussion where we finally had a name that most everyone on the team was agreeing with, but you should be able to find it pretty easily. (There wasn't a good consensus on any proposed names until that one, so we all agreed to go with it.) I've been given proper credit for devising the moniker on the The Dark Mod's website for a long time now: "Darkness_Falls (Concept Art & Audio) – Ideas, concept art and audio for the mod. Created the name ‘Broken Glass Studios’." For what it's worth, in case of any curiosity out there, I also made and posted in the dev forums an early 3D logo / splash screen test long ago when I was still on the dev forums side, whereby the glass logo flies toward the camera. My 3D skills are improved since then, so I may try a new version soon; for fun, if nothing else. But here are some stills from that video test... PS: I'd say Broken Glass Studios was more just a play on words of Looking Glass Studios. There was more to the thought process than that... and it was originally conceived in a partly non-serious way, as I recall; but it sounded too decent to not propose as a serious consideration. It, inherently, had several different meanings, including homages to LGS, which made it more interesting. For example, a team member at the time commented something like, "Picking up the pieces left behind by the broken LGS", or something to this effect, as one inherent meaning. But there's, of course, broken glass in thieving sometimes... etc.

And I think TyroT made that video, didn't he? Or played a big role in its creation? Like he maybe did the clock and the music, and edited the vid, etc. Unless I'm confusing this one with another early trailer that he played a decent role in creating.

Just stumbled upon this and thought it was neat. Light detection in UE4: https://youtu.be/P1j7lwvGRWk Here's the page I saw the link on. They said they were inspired by Dark Mod https://www.reddit.com/r/unrealengine/comments/9ieroj/github_light_detection_method_inspired_by_the/ Wasn't sure if it'd been posted before.

Fair enough, Stumpy! It does seem like a normals issue of some sort (regarding the ductwork screenshots I posted about a short time ago), like you say

SH - I looked, but didn't see one. I will keep looking around later, though. If you or others are sure it exists, that helps to know I'm not chasing my tail Destined - Is what I thought was maybe happening, but the prefab mansion door seems like it's comprised of several models grouped together. In which case, shouldn't a "RMB > Ungroup Selected" work for it? However, it's not an option (grayed out, as I recall). All this made me think that maybe the artist has the ability to manually lock down a prefab so it can't be ungrouped; like if they don't want people messing with the their prefab or reverse-engineering it.

Is there a way to ungroup prefabs? I want just one of the cubes in this section, for example, but the section is three cubes long and seems indivisible. I wonder the same for Springheel's prefab mansion doorways. Sometimes I want to take one of the columns in the prefab doorway and translate it over, but, again, it seem indivisible.

The ductwork tunnel I chose was a prefab model in the dark mod library of assets. Are you saying I can ungroup it and do some stuff to fix it? I will try to understand better what you're saying when I have DarkRadiant in front of me Thank you for the advice! Also, tangent here: is there a way to use a local axis for actions (i.e., the axis of the object or brush you've selected)? I duplicated a room, then (from a top-down view) rotated it to about 45 degree angle. As I recall, when I selected and tried to extend a brush using the QE (q) tool, the brush would only move along the typical 90-degree (grid patterned) axis; so, it was moving the brush edge at a funky angle (relative to how it was originally constructed) and, thus, screwing up my room shape. Seems odd that I wouldn't be able to make and edit the size of a rotated room very easily. I assume it's my lack of knowledge than a tool limitation.

Getting more used to the controls/hotkeys, which makes map-making quite a bit easier and a lot more fun! Such a powerful map authoring tool. Had a good time building a vent tunnel to the main room of my secret area, and making it a more refined area with proper walls/ceiling and trim. (It was just going into an unfinished area before, where you could see sealing geo and the back side of walls from a different room.) The ductwork tunnel I chose (one with a bend in it) had a weird trianglular chunk missing. Is that normal? It doesn't show up in the editor. I had to build some brushes on the other side of it (wood boards) so it wouldn't reveal the blank room through it. See screenshots. Also, for stairs, should I just cut a chunk out of the ceiling to make a hole that leads up to an upstairs room? See screenshot. I'm also tossing in a view of the main (first room) I built a while back.

Right on. I had a similar question before regarding water arrow FX. I kept getting two splash cycles when I only wanted one. I don't think I ever fixed the issue, but when I get back to it, I can try the func_fx type of thing, and/or look into what Obsttorte replied with in my old post, "The number of cycles is defined in the particle file," and also taking his words above into consideration

I finally successfully de-leaked my map, so I can move forward again, lol. What really helped was re-watching Lesson 5, as Springheel does a lot of sealing in the latter half of it... and changing decorative brushes to func_static was the ultimate blessing that helped me see a few gaps I had more clearly. Once I got those squared away, I thought all would be well, then somehow the ceiling of my player equipment room that is off in no-man's-land got deleted so there was a leak there. I was confused at first, since there was no line to be found in the rooms I was building. But I remembered there's that player equipment stuff far, far away. Took a quick look, and sure enough, there was the red line, and a ceiling missing Thanks Obsttorte! That's encouraging to know. I agree there's much room for improvement in my sealing work. The words here from everyone, and Lesson 5 goodness, etc. makes me hopeful that it will become easier over time I'm embarrassed to say I only have a main room with decorations, candles, lights, fireplace, etc.... a hallway with a door in-between... a secret room... some ambient music playing... some customized moonlight color thru windows... some readables... some loot... and the first room duplicated (inaccessible at the moment). I think I have most of the basics down now, so building out and adding rooms should go easier. I will add another room or two, then do some outdoor area. Sorry I am only this far in the process, but life tends to get busy, and other priorities and interests yank at me. I might try to make an upstairs or downstairs room as one of my rooms to build.

Thanks! Those info nuggets should help, and I will take another look at it this weekend So, if I understand correctly, don't worry about the line bouncing all over, ricocheting a few times... just wait for its final straight line, and follow only *its* path backward to where it, apparently, got through? (I.e., all the bouncing angles before then are pretty much irrelevant.) I'm pretty sure this is what I've been doing, but confirmation is good. I will re-read this thread regarding my seal questions and your answers, too, as I know I've struggled with it since the beginning.

Leaks are incredibly annoying, and yet again possibly a reason why I might set map building down for months again. I lose 90% of the zeal toward map building when I get leaks, as trying to see what is wrong and fix them is a nightmare. I put seals around what I decipher as *maybe* the problem but *not sure why exactly but do it anyways* ... which sometimes resolves the problem, but often not. And if my actions accidentally resolve somehow, another red line will likely pop up somewhere else that also doesn't make sense. Bottom line: The pointfile red lines are incredibly vague. I can build seal brush after seal brush, seal box after seal box, yet the red lines still seep out somehow, somewhere, some way. I wonder if it's possible to someday make the red lines more precise... more specific... more explanatory... and maybe give some messaging as to what the engine is seeing as the problem? Maybe through experience I will eventually find them to be incredible and beautiful... the best feature of DarkRadiant(?) But as a newbie, they are about as clear as mud in what they point to and try to say... resulting in sealing nightmares. I feel like I just spin my wheels for hours when leaks occur.

Most excellent info. Thank you!

I stopped getting email notifications when there was a post in this thread as of the new year. I'll see if I can subscribe to it again. I might've accidentally unsubscribed, or temporarily did so on purpose... but I can't fathom that I would've done so on purpose. Either way, my apologies for not seeing these recent posts until now. I actually loaded up DarkRadiant tonight for the first time in a long time. I'll need to get a foothold on the hotkeys and such again, but that part shouldn't take too long. I'm hoping life feels less hectic relatively soon, and I think it will. I remember my stumbling block was and will probably continue to be the sealing of rooms (...and gaps, like above a prefab window alcove that maybe doesn't have a top). For some reason, I don't think I have a good foothold on that concept yet. Are there more tutorials or examples I could look at on this topic? Maybe a number of different scenarios where we need to seal, and see how a veteran uses the brushes to seal and where they put them? Sealing/caulking is my Achilles heel. I think it was a big barrier to my progress before, to be honest. Maybe it's just me, and if so, I'll just watch and re-watch the bit of training that is already available. (Note: I remember there's a Wiki. I will read through that, too.) But if it's not too much trouble and if others agree, I think I could use a training video dedicated exclusively to sealing stuff. Just bust through a number of common use cases, one right after the other. Cutting from one scenario to another, focusing just on sealing. I know some of this info already exists, scattered across multiple videos in some way or another. Since it's my Kryptonite, though, I'm hoping pity can be taken I really believe a video dedicated to this would help a lot. And hopefully it wouldn't only help me. I'd want your time spent to be worthwhile... so if I'm the only one struggling with it, and the perception is that not many people ever will, then I can't ask you to bother. Here are some scenario ideas for the video. In each case, it's okay -- and actually desirable -- to just jump to the part of the process where you have to seal (i.e., don't show you placing a prefab; just cut to the prefab already being placed and you have to now extend the seal or whatever). I'd want to see you physically make the seal in each case: Sealing a basic room. (I know it's fairly easy, but it's just a starting point.) Adding a window alcove prefab to the basic room, which causes the first seal to not be big enough. What to do? What if that window alcove prefab doesn't have a top on it (no top geo), as I think one or more of the alcoves are? Will that cause leaks? How to seal? How to fix that prefab geo? Adding a hallway or another room next to the room that is already sealed. What to do? Have a room fully built that you think is fully sealed, but it leaks. Zero in on where the leak is and what is causing it, and fix it. Have a room fully built, then duplicate the room and move it over a few meters, making a gap. With two non-connected, individually sealed rooms, are you able to test the map, or does the test find leaks? How to fix? If a hallway is later placed between the two rooms, do we make a 3rd sealing, or extend the 1st sealing so it butts up to the 2nd sealing, or connect/bridge the 1st and 2nd sealing to create one long, continuous seal? Having a room beneath the first room. Extend the first seal, or make a brand new seal? Have an outdoor front lawn connected to door of first room. New seal? Connect seal?Explain some useful factoids about seals, like: Do we need to use grid size of 8 (nothing less) for sealing? What adverse things will happen if we use less than 8 and why? Sometimes I position walls, floors, and ceilings while using a grid size of less than 8. Does that lead to problems when trying to seal with 8?Does a seal need to be within a centimeter, millimeter, or nanometer of floor, ceiling, or wall, otherwise it won't work? Or can it be 5 meters away and have the map still function without leaks? Are there drawbacks to putting it 5 meters away if you know the map won't be built out in that particular direction?Other critical pieces of info that might be helpful, if anyI know these examples would just be guidelines and there will always be gray areas; that the solutions you do won't work in every situation. And your earlier videos have some of the use cases. But I think it would give me a better foundation of knowledge to work from if the info was more direct, and viewable as one focused video. And seeing more examples rather than copy/pastes of what earlier videos show will round out the education on sealing. Is just a thought, if your or anyone has time and think it's worthwhile, SH...

Above, only because TDM is unreliable when aiming directly at the torch. I wasted a fair number of water arrows (and/or did a bunch of reloads) early on because shooting at the source failed so many times. I didn't know for quite a while that aiming above could douse torches. Once I learned that, I thought it was cool and enjoyable to do so, but I still prefer direct hits. Seems like the torch holder or torch model bounding box gets in the way of the water doing its thing. Dousing from above should be an option, as I like doing it sometimes, but not a near-requirement, imo. Sometimes there's no wall directly behind a flame, or convenient ceiling above, to pull off a water douse from above.

I didn't see any recent discussions about Underworld Ascendant here or at TTLG.com, so figured I'd update this one. I saw they now have pre-alpha gameplay footage of the training level. Cool! And their channel has a few other videos from the past month I have to watch still... Youtube: "Underworld Ascendant Training Level" Here's a link to their news updates page (where I found the video link): https://otherside-e.com/wp/update-crafting-an-immersive-sim-pax-east-more/ Although I'm sad this isn't a Thief game or Thief spinoff, which I would far prefer, it does intrigue me. Is awesome to hear Stephen Russell! I never played the game(s) that inspired this (Ultima Underworld?). I plan to buy this game when it comes out because of the emergent gameplay aspects, the setting, etc. Casting magic spells from hands turns me off a little in games (Dishonored, Bioshock, etc.), but it's okay. Not every game can be Thief I wonder if they got Eric Brosius on-board for the ambients/music, too. That'd be amazing

I tried it again, but it is a hard situation to replicate perfectly. When I did get fairly close to replicating the original situation, the error does not happen. So perhaps all is well. I will try again later and if I'm able to reproduce the error, I'll post here. Otherwise, assume it was just a one-time thing Now I may need help with one of the objectives. I can't find:

Pretty sweet mission so far. Love the vibe, music, and sounds of home. I just encountered a bug, though. Got a "Visual Studio Just-In-Time Debugger" pop-up saying, "An unhandled win32 exception occurred in TheDarkMod.exe [6956]" Here is what I was doing:

Epifire, I wonder how much more game you have left to play? The graphics were pretty cool, for sure