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Things that could be improved


Berny

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As for point one, right now this is all up to the mission creator's description and how a player understands it. There is no general gameplay related way to distinguish the two kind of items and I was just suggesting one.

 

 

If you can think of a gameplay related way to distinguish between the two kinds of items that is 1) actually easier to understand than the current system, 2) equally flexible for mappers and 3) doesn't break the way things already work, feel free to propose it.

 

. But I agree with you, space in the menu is too limited for explanations of that kind. But then the training mission is only a small mission among hundreds of others and I played it a long time ago! Maybe there could be an integrated help page or something explaining the most basic things that are not obvious? I don't like to visit a Wiki or some other online page to figure things out.

 

 

The next update will include random tips that will remind players how to do some of the more commonly forgotten things.

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If you can think of a gameplay related way to distinguish between the two kinds of items that is 1) actually easier to understand than the current system, 2) equally flexible for mappers and 3) doesn't break the way things already work, feel free to propose it.

I though I alread did that ;). My suggestion was to play the "Not here" sound effect when people try to use an inventory item that can't be used. Provided there is a flag or something already marking quest objects compared to e.g. keys, loot, weapons and others, this should be easy to implement and it should automatically work on all existing missions as well!

 

As for the random tips, great :)! I was thinking about proposing exactly that, but I thought it would be to difficult to do. So when do these tips appear? While loading a mission like in other games, e.g. my favorite Bloodines?

Edited by wesp5
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I though I alread did that ;). My suggestion was to play the "Not here" sound effect when people try to use an inventory item that can't be used.

 

 

And how would that solve the original case you presented? You go to put the bottle in the chest, you hit the use key, and the "not here" sound plays, because the bottle cannot be "used". How is that any different than the red flash that you said was confusing?

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How is that any different than the red flash that you said was confusing?

You are righr, for this to work it must be explained somewhere! Then it's probably easier to add a "put or place or drop item" means dropping it using the drop key to the random tips...

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The purpose of the random tips is to make sure players know the different mechanics. I think it should include a lot of the ones we get questions about a lot ... shouldering bodies, rope swinging, dropping off ropes, dropping objects, object manipulation, and maybe other questions we get sometimes just so people will be on guard, like that windows sometimes open, doors are sometimes fake...

 

The thing is the "place item here" mechanic is actually not all that uncommon. The first time might throw people, but I think the more people play, they'll catch on to a lot of mechanics just by sheer repetition.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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The purpose of the random tips is to make sure players know the different mechanics.

When and where do you plan to display them? On the left side in the main menu while the characters are cycled? Maybe it would even make sense to display tips not at random but connected to the characters, like when the undead is shown there are tips on how to handle the undead!

 

On a similar note, I just played the FM "The Builders Influence" and noticed that during loading of the mission the background image changed! So would it one day be possible to show the mission intro during loading in a similar way? I guess there could be other solutions to buying stuff and setting difficulty that would work with such a process.

 

I also noticed something else that has been bothering me for some time and should be easy to fix in the next update: Opening and closing chests sounds exactly like opening and closing a door! This makes no sense really and I often "look over my shoulder" to see if someone opened a door at the same time I opened a chest because of this.

 

Last but not least I also noticed again what I already listed above: maps can't be closed with the FROB key unlike all other readables and they can't even be closed with the USE key if they were opened with the MAP key. This is another small UI fix that should probably be easy to implement and would make the handling of the game more consistent.

Edited by wesp5
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"The Dark Mod" is a game which in my opinion offers already most of the requirements I would think about. The game mechanics works fluently, the graphics are quite fine and most time the requested atmosphere is achieved.

 

From my point of view, alt-tabbing should be better supported (in a native way) and there should be more models for a bigger variety of enemies. Most times you will just see the same used over and over again because there seems to be a lack of alternatives.

 

Another great implementation would be the possibility to replaces the usual saving method with checkpoints (in a optional way for increasing difficulty or at least harsher preconditions).

 

Overall I am quite happy with what it offers, native alt-tabbing would be the first change on my priority list!

Edited by Silverd
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Another great implementation would be the possibility to replace the usual saving method with checkpoints (in a optional way for increasing difficulty or at least harsher preconditions).

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Altering_the_savegame_behaviour_of_TDM

 

No mapper has yet used Inconvenience Mode, but you can always iron-man it as a self-imposed challenge if you want to.

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Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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When and where do you plan to display them?

During map load.

 

Last but not least I also noticed again what I already listed above: maps can't be closed with the FROB key unlike all other readables and they can't even be closed with the USE key if they were opened with the MAP key. This is another small UI fix that should probably be easy to implement and would make the handling of the game more consistent.

Please raise a tracker for this.

 

From my point of view, alt-tabbing should be better supported (in a native way)

Yeah, we know :) The reason it hasn't been done yet is we lack Windows experts. NagaHuntress has given us a fix for Linux which will be in the next release, so that gives us another motivation to try to fix it for Windows too.

 

Another great implementation would be the possibility to replaces the usual saving method with checkpoints (in a optional way for increasing difficulty or at least harsher preconditions).

This was implemented in the most recent release. No mappers have built a mission around it yet, but I expect it'll happen.
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Remarkable how you guys are ahead in time! I mean, if alt-tabbing is actually solved I could not really find mentionable flaws anymore. This fact is quite astonishing - well done! Overall TDM feels like the best free software game out there in terms of quality - even trumping most commercial oriented games these days.

 

Okay, there could be more models for enemies like the undead (There are two widely used models which are present in nearly every undead campaign - there could definitely be more diversity!) and as always the more the better - but to sum up it is a quite remarkable game!

Edited by Silverd
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There are three undead models (zombie, regular skeleton and revenant), though the zombie and skeleton act pretty similarly. Plus various experiments in skinning existing models for use as ghosts.

 

Aside from undead, there are a couple of models awaiting rigging at some point: a werebeast and a pagan (I'm guessing that's the female pagan; there are a few assets for her in the core mod, and more in The Heart of Lone Salvation).

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Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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First time post, so be gentle. I have some suggestions here about additional equipment and skills related to
escaping after being detected, and some purists may not like them because they aren't stealth-oriented enough. I'm
anticipating, perhaps unnecessarily, being taken to task for my suggestions, but they are just suggestions, don't take
them too seriously.
Infiltration always carries with it an element of risk. No matter how good a thief you are or how well planned a
particular job is, there is always a chance you will stumble into a guard or something like that. In response to being
detected you have two options, fight or flight. While fighting is an option, flight is the better option as fighting off
one guard while three or four more guards come running to join the fray usually spells disaster. The following will help
make escape more likely and fun.
My suggestion for a piece of equipment for the Dark Mod that has helped thieves escape in our own history are
caltrops, little pieces of metal with spikes coming out of them contructed in such a way that when thrown on the ground
there is always a spike pointing straight up, waiting for someone to step on it. Make it so that they can be dropped
while running, ie. being pursued, and make it area-of-effect that persists for the length of the mission. Caltrops do a
small amount of damage and, most importantly, slow movement speed. If you, the thief, double-back for some reason and
step on them yourself it has the same effect, light damage and reduced movement speed, health and movement speed can be restored with a health potion. If a heavily damaged guard steps on the caltrops and they do enough damage to kill him,it does not count as a kill by the thief.
Next is sprinting, an all out run that requires recuperation time. You can sprint for as long as you like up to a
maximum of, say, 5 seconds. Immediately after the sprint your movement speed would be reduced to a walk for the same
amount of time the sprint took. So, for example, if you sprinted for 3 seconds your movement speed would be reduced to a walk for three seconds. The sum total of the distance travelled while sprinting and walking would be a little greater
than the distance travelled if you were just running for that amount of time, and sprinting would allow you to jump
larger gaps than running and jumping. Sprinting would also allow you to vault over objects, basically to jump over or
onto objects you would normally have to mantle over or onto. Sprinting doesn't increase maximum jump or mantling height. Sprinting would also allow you to slide under objects you would normally have to crouch under. Some very lightly armored guards might be able to sprint.
Finally, another piece of equipment that would be helpful in creating new escape routes would be the tightrope
arrow, a carefully and ruggedly constructed (ie. expensive) rope arrow that embeds itself in wood on the far end and
that you can either fasten to a pipe or drive into wood on your end, (both of which take some time, so not something you
can use with with guards nipping at your heels). You can then cross on the rope. If you start to step off the rope the
game lets you know by tilting the game image, letting you know to correct your direction, no correction and you fall off
of the rope. This is all easier the slower your moving, so you have a greater chance of success if you're walking
instead of running, greater still if you're creeping instead of walking. Paradoxically, if you hit the rope at a full
sprint you never fall off, as you traverse the distance of the tightrope before being able to fall off, though there is
a small recovery time in which you can't move at all to recuperate from such strenuous activity (careful, some guards
carry bows). Although, most guards will not follow you over a tightrope, one or two might, though they are rarely
successful in crossing. The tightrope arrow can only be used once and is unrecoverable.
There you go, my suggestions for expanding what's possible in the Dark Mod. These suggestions wouldn't necessarily
make the game better, just expand what's possible, allowing more varied styles of play, and enabling more creative level
design. Caltrops, for me, are a no-brainer, I'm surprised they were not in the original Thief game, and the tightrope
arrow is just a logical extension of the rope arrow. Sprinting and all that goes with it seems the most out-of-place.
Sprinting is more like a free-running type of skill that doesn't really fit the stealth theme of the game, but if you've
already been detected where you shouldn't be then stealth is out the window anyway. It just gives you more options for
escape, and can make escapes more exhilirating and fun. For those who feel that such skills have no place in a stealth
game, don't use them. If you were really a thief in someone else's home and got caught, are you telling me you wouldn't
sprint as fast as possible to escape?

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We've talked about caltrops before. I'm somewhat in favour of the idea, though I think the reception has been luke-warm overall. If you do a search for the term you can read up on the arguments for and against.

 

Welcome, btw.

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Hi and welcome to the forum! None of that sounds out of place to me. TDM is a hard stealth game, but players are not required to ghost. I end up running away a lot :) We already have tools with the same gameplay uses as caltrops: flash bombs which you can drop at your feet as you run away, and mines that you can plant at strategic spots. Caltrops were fun to use in assassin's creed. A mapper could invent them whether or not we had them in the core mod, but both would probably hinge on whether we have appropriate animations and AI vocals to make it look good.

 

I like the idea of rope bridges too, but mappers would probably have to design levels with them in mind. I don't know whether the AI chasing you over them would be possible given the pathing system... but I'm not sure. grayman would know.

 

Sprinting: that would be a realistic feature, although I suspect the player not being able to outrun AI easily is a design feature that mappers have built around. You can already dive into water or leap over a wall or into a hole to escape pursuit (but only if you can find one!)

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Walking across a rope arrow bridge sounds possible. We'd spawn a variable length solid object using a rope model across the span. Not sure how you'd tie off the rope, though. I suspect the current rope arrow could be used, with some test for how close to horizontal it's being fired, then automatically tie it off at the player's feet. But then this presents a problem if the player's firing into a beam near his feet with the idea of climbing down the arrow onto the floor below. Might need a new arrow type, but since we're out of arrow slots, adding another arrow type presents all kinds of other problems with key assignments and menu changes.

 

No guard will follow you across a rope arrow bridge. All pathfinding AAS areas (used by AI) are created at dmap time.

 

I'm not sure about the 'tilting' bit. Atm you can walk across strung ropes and clotheslines, and we don't provide any tilting feedback. The player uses an invisible bridge that the mapper has built coincident with the rope, so there's no sense of tilting if the player strays close to the edge of this bridge.

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I think an ambitious mapper could get at least the caltrops and a sprint mechanic working for their own maps, that other mappers could take.

 

The rope bridge idea might allow some cool scenes, but I think it's trouble in the end. I don't think it'd be as handy as you might think anyway. You'd need an elevated wooden bit over there you can't already rope arrow to, at the perfect elevation and distance, with the right equipment on this side, etc.

 

At that point, the mapper may as well just fake it with a gimmick machine that looks like it's shooting one and a modified clothesline appears you can walk across. Actually, that sounds kind of cool. Someone should try that sometime. That'd go off better than a new tool.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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I don't like the idea of sprinting, it simply clutters the control scheme some more! I always assumed you were running at your top speed already and I sometimes escape guards by running away and mantling up somewhere where they can't follow which basically is what you suggested with the parcouring.

 

I like the idea of the caltrops, but I wouid suggest to have them stop the guards completely for a time until they can remove them. I don't think anybody will still follow a thief with a nail in his boot ;)!

 

I'm not sure about the tightrope. As has already been explained this seems to be only useful in specific maps that are made for it. In many cases using a rope arrow and then jumping onto the dangling rope should give the same result.

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In my opinion, there are several things that could improve the Mod, but the first 2 that come to my mind are:

1. Subtitles.

A good part of the custom conversations the mappers add is lost, because you can't hear them well enough unless you turn the volume very high (and even then, steps/noises may interfere). It would be a great storytelling tool for mappers, that until now have to rely mainly on readables.

2. Multiplayer.

A new game mode adds variety. We have already a lot of maps, it would be very fun to play them as a team of 2/3 players; it could also draw more people into the game.

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The tightrope has been covered sufficiently, I think. Good idea, but to specailised and I think the problem with the arrow slots may not be worth the effort. Or you would have to exchange one arrow type, which then again would be missing.

 

Regarding sprinting: It would maybe be interesting to have a kind of stamina bar (maybe even the air bar for diving) while running, showing that you run out of breath, so you cannot run indefinitely. Of course, you should not drop dead as soon as you're out of breath from running...

 

Caltrops: sound good, but I agree with SteveL: Any mapper can make them, if he wants to. For me the main problem would be the models. I played around a bit with Blender, but did not get very far... Although the form of caltrops should be quite easy, so maybe it would be a good project to begin with. I am not sure, which animations are available right now, but maybe there is some, that can be used. But I would not let them do any damage. I think it would be silly, if a guard drops dead, just because he has a little sting in the foot. And maybe they should be retrievable. Maybe I will look into it a bit, just for fun. But my time is quite limited right now, so I don't want to make any promises.


 

In my opinion, there are several things that could improve the Mod, but the first 2 that come to my mind are:
1. Subtitles.
A good part of the custom conversations the mappers add is lost, because you can't hear them well enough unless you turn the volume very high (and even then, steps/noises may interfere). It would be a great storytelling tool for mappers, that until now have to rely mainly on readables.
2. Multiplayer.
A new game mode adds variety. We have already a lot of maps, it would be very fun to play them as a team of 2/3 players; it could also draw more people into the game.

 

Both your suggestions have already appeared before.

Regarding 1.: I am not 100% sure, how they can be implemented, but it is possible. Currently it is up the mission authors to include them. For existing missions you would have to find someone to include them. That means someone has to take all the audio files, listen to what is said and write the subtitles. That is a lot of work for all the missions.

Regarding2.: Mutliplayer is something many people would like to see, but it needs extensive coding and is a real buttload of work. A small group has started quite recently to try to make it possible, but this is still in the earlyest stages.

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Caltrops: sound good, but I agree with SteveL: Any mapper can make them, if he wants to. For me the main problem would be the models.

 

 

The models would be the easiest part. AI reactions would be the tricky part. You'd need to decide under what conditions the AI can "see" the caltrops or just blindly walk into them. You'd have to keep the AI from stepping on them over and over again to maintain any sense of believabilty. You need some kind of believable reaction when the AI step on them, which probably means new animations. You'd have to figure out how the caltrops effect the AI's behaviour (do they stop what they're doing, do they walk slower after, etc). It's not a simple task if you want it to look half decent.

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The models would be the easiest part. AI reactions would be the tricky part. You'd need to decide under what conditions the AI can "see" the caltrops or just blindly walk into them. You'd have to keep the AI from stepping on them over and over again to maintain any sense of believabilty. You need some kind of believable reaction when the AI step on them, which probably means new animations. You'd have to figure out how the caltrops effect the AI's behaviour (do they stop what they're doing, do they walk slower after, etc). It's not a simple task if you want it to look half decent.

 

You are right, I haven't even thought about half the things you mentioned. My idea at the moment would be: AI should not see them when alerted and chasing the player, so you could couple that an the alertness level. Otherwise maybe it is possible to use an algorithm similar to unconsious bodies etc. In bright light, they would notice them and pick them up, otherwise they step into it. When they step into it, it would make sense, that they stop (maybe hop around shortly, but that would require a new animation) and bend down (or sit down on the floor) to remove the caltrops from their feet (also may require new animations). After that they move slower for a time (also new animation: hobbling, if possible) and after a couple of minutes just behave as usual.

So you are right. Especially with the new animations required (and given the fact that I have no experience with animations whatsoever, let alone software to make them) it is most likely quite a bit above what I can do :(

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Yeah you often see sprinting limitation in games. Im not against it, actually. I wouldnt like to see a bar, though. Just some heavy breathing and inability to sprint for a while, once youve done it too much.

 

The thing is, in a game like Stalker, it makes a lot of sense. You are usually crossing big distances (so the question of speed vs carrying tons of equipment or loot arises), and in firefights you need to really run around trying to dodge the bullets and look for cover, so mobility is key (again, vs carrying lots of weapons and loot). In TDM, running already has a negative aspect to it (huge noise, and making you visible), if you can run because nobody is listening, then the map is clear and it would be boring to be forced to walk around bare rooms because you are getting tired all the time. Its single missions (even in campaigns), so the matter of carrying excess equipment or loot for later is not applicable. Also, I just competed in a 5k run in a speed that most would call sprinting and thats really no problem for someone as fit as our thief. And if you think about the people who won first places, those guys were sprinting throughout the whole thing. Even if our thief is not a professional athlete, he would obviously be fit enough to run confortably and fast when needed. But it could be interesting, gameplay wise, to have him tire out eventually. It would be something to beta test for a while and see if any fun aspect comes out of it.

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