Things that could be improved

[Deadlove]

What do you mean? Every Thief game has changing background music. It is only appropriate for TDM. Even Thief 2 and Deadly Shadows has loops meant specifically for one or another area of the same level. Like in DS the music that plays at your rented apartment and the one that plays in South Quarter - but it's the same track in the OST:

 

And it also plays in the end of the game: https://youtu.be/i8gyw1dDY9Y?t=2m47s

 

 

And I'm pulling the blasphemy card in that I turned off Thief's ambient for my own selection of music even when I played Thief.

 

Actually, for most of the time, Thief is still so rich in sound effects that ambient isn't necessary.

 

Also, I don't agree that TDM should be as close to Thief as possible. TDM is its own game, with its own authors, and its own design. It shouldn't mimic the Thief series. Thief was already done and it was done right. Until the community gets off the Thief cock, the spectators are never going to see TDM as something different.

[Jon Irenicus]

And I'm pulling the blasphemy card in that I turned off Thief's ambient for my own selection of music even when I played Thief.

 

Actually, for most of the time, Thief is still so rich in sound effects that ambient isn't necessary.

[Melan]

And I'm pulling the blasphemy card in that I turned off Thief's ambient for my own selection of music even when I played Thief.

That's a legitimate preference, but not one shared by most of the Thief community. Hence, probably not something that will ever be addressed.

[Oktokolo]

So I can safely say there's some kind of issue with regards to scripted killing of npc's through plot and script usage.unfairly punished for optional objectives in these cases.

The problem here is, that AI detects bodies lying around, raising alertness level. The AI reaction is right but the resulting stealth score points should not count.

A solution that might work for most cases might be to add a "do not count for stealth score" flag by script before programmatically killing AI. That flag would have to be honoured by the game engine when deciding whether alert level changes caused by found bodies are counted for stealth score or not.

Whether such flags should be erased when the player moves the body around i am not sure about though. Do people intentionally place bodies to be found by AI to trigger a change of behaviour?.

[demagogue]

@Deadlove, ambient music is done by mappers and isn't a mod issue anyway. But the good news of that, for you, is that it'd be very easy for you to open a mission up in DR and simply delete the ambient music info, or substitute your own music. See the wiki entry for location_settings to see what to do. This is a quintessestinal Do It Yourself issue for personal taste when it differs from the norm.

 

I don't think you'll have much luck popularizing the idea since sound is such a big design element. But some mappers use ambients more than others. I sometimes like ambient minimalism too. I can appreciate both styles.

 

Edit. The Stealth Score issue should be handled by code, and we have a feature request registered for it. So at least it's in a pipeline somewhere.

[Anderson]

 

 

Also, I don't agree that TDM should be as close to Thief as possible. TDM is its own game, with its own authors, and its own design. It shouldn't mimic the Thief series. Thief was already done and it was done right. Until the community gets off the Thief cock, the spectators are never going to see TDM as something different.

You are correct, yet TDM is also an analogy and an alternative that never happened for the Thief series. It shouldn't copy/paste Thief, but continuing the tradition with the Thief feel is what everyone reasonably expects from TDM as well as from Thief FM's.

In short - what would TDM be without Thief serving as an example?

Edited November 17, 2015 by Anderson

[Agent Jones]

Edit. The Stealth Score issue should be handled by code, and we have a feature request registered for it. So at least it's in a pipeline somewhere.

I already posted a solution on the bugtracker here , but I don't know whether I should mark it as resolved or not since it hasn't been added to the SVN yet. What's the bugtracker etiquette in this case?

[V-Man339]

The problem here is, that AI detects bodies lying around, raising alertness level. The AI reaction is right but the resulting stealth score points should not count.

A solution that might work for most cases might be to add a "do not count for stealth score" flag by script before programmatically killing AI. That flag would have to be honoured by the game engine when deciding whether alert level changes caused by found bodies are counted for stealth score or not.

Whether such flags should be erased when the player moves the body around i am not sure about though. Do people intentionally place bodies to be found by AI to trigger a change of behaviour?.

Always assume so, in my experience.

Half the beauty of stealth is that the AI actually is that complicated and manipulable.

[Deadlove]

You are correct, yet TDM is also an analogy and an alternative that never happened for the Thief series. It shouldn't copy/paste Thief, but continuing the tradition with the Thief feel is what everyone reasonably expects from TDM as well as from Thief FM's.

In short - what would TDM be without Thief serving as an example?

 

I get your point, but...

 

What is any stealth game without Thief serving as an example?

 

Thief is to fantasy stealth what Doom is to Satanic violent action, they were the first to *really* do it. All the games after are clones. The initial play scheme won't change for TDM because it's designed with the same game play values in mind, to offer a fun experience.

 

One example off the top of my head... There is no time out in TDM when you read a book, the world keeps going, the guards continue patrols, etc. Thief lost tension by the readables pausing the game play. Different, and IMO better design. Taking it to the next level. Time doesn't stop in real life to read so why should it in game?

 

The game itself shouldn't change even though the uniforms have gotten more fancy.

 

QUAKE is essentially a clone of DOOM. Like a DOOM on nightmare hallucinogenic steroids.

[Anderson]

 

 

 

QUAKE is essentially a clone of DOOM. Like a DOOM on nightmare hallucinogenic steroids.

Doom in 3D!

[Deadlove]

Doom in 3D!

 

Pretty much.

 

Id Software was wise enough to see it themselves when they released Quake 2.

 

And what the hell does Quake 2 have anything to do with Quake 1? Strogg? Aliens? Laser pistol? Where are nightmare creatures, nails and castles?

 

Why is it still called Quake? That game should've had a different title.

 

I feel the monsters from the first Quake got jacked pretty hard that all the revisions of DOOM and Quake2 storyline / enemies but no love for the most twisted and badass from the most badass bestiary in any of their games had (Quake1).

 

I'll stop ranting.

[Anderson]

 

Pretty much.

 

Id Software was wise enough to see it themselves when they released Quake 2.

 

And what the hell does Quake 2 have anything to do with Quake 1? Strogg? Aliens? Laser pistol? Where are nightmare creatures, nails and castles?

 

Why is it still called Quake? That game should've had a different title.

 

I feel the monsters from the first Quake got jacked pretty hard that all the revisions of DOOM and Quake2 storyline / enemies but no love for the most twisted and badass from the most badass bestiary in any of their games had (Quake1).

 

I'll stop ranting.

Such is life I guess. And the consequence of making games closer to the 2000's rather than the gloomy, moody 90's.

I guess that's why Thief 1 was darker and more gothic than Thief 2's steampunk. Maybe.

 

If I'm wrong correct me. That's how I felt about it.

[Deadlove]

Builders have a cast, symbol, etc. whatever you want to call it. It's all over there structures, a flag for example has a Builders hammer/gear on it.

 

Bridgeport should have an official caste to place on flags at city buildings.

 

Maybe city watch should have their own seal, on a flag too? Lots of those places too.

 

Maybe a prideful thief would have his own purple flag with an "R" on it. Oh wait, Ramirez already did that one.

 

The point I'm getting at is taking existing assets and modifying them. Flags for divisions of law, country, town, would add immense depth to areas other than Builder chapels, which already have flags.

[grayman]

City Watch already has a banner.

 

I made a new banner for Cleighmoor.

 

Other authors have probably done the same.

 

New things we make sometimes find their way into the core mod, depending on their potential for widespread use.

[Deadlove]

That's a legitimate preference, but not one shared by most of the Thief community. Hence, probably not something that will ever be addressed.

 

I already have solution I've been using for years, it's run music(deep ambient music) on playlist repeat VLC or WMP in background while I game with music in game disabled.

 

I like the style of ambient of Thief missions, I just prefer an even more subtle drones and minimalism than what Thief has.

[demagogue]

Yeah I do the same thing ... in real life walking around with my earphones plugged in.

[Anderson]

I do as well sometimes too but I got to stay on my toes all the time. I kind got used to it and headphones might get in the way.

In-game I tend to never add music of my own because it breaks the intended atmosphere of the game/level that the creator intended.

[Deadlove]

Windchimes?

[Deadlove]

How about a vocal set for a character who mumbles and uses minimal to no words. Like R2D2 from Star Wars, Cousin it from Addams family, Kenny from South Park, etc.

[VanishedOne]

For e.g. having an AI kneel before an altar it would be nice to have start and stop kneeling animations, which could be used with replace_anim_* and the sitting behaviour; the kneel_down animations have a fixed duration between kneeling and rising, and I think the same is true of Sotha's prayer animation.

[Springheel]

Yes, I've wanted something like this for a while. It could potentially be a very versatile system.

 

 

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/16497-using-sitting-and-sleeping-behavior-for-something-else/?do=findComment&comment=353121

[Nico A.]

I think the AI searching behavior could be a little bit better: when they search me, I would expect they would go into unlit areas rather than stay in the well illuminated ones.

 

I don't know if this was mentioned before.

[demagogue]

Not only has it been noticed before, but just wait until version 2.04 rolls in and you may be very happy to see some improvements in that area.

[Nico A.]

Woohoo! Am looking forward to it ^.^

[Ankai]

Is there a way to get into water more quietly? It could just be clumsiness on my part but I tend to make a racket like I jumped in with both feet even in shallow water.

 

My kingdom for like reverse mantling.