Things that could be improved

[wesp5]

Actually, you may not want to hear this, but zombies and revenants are currently much _easier_ to defeat with swords than they're supposed to be, due to a bug that makes every third or fourth hit do more damage than it should.

 

Well, this bug will certainly be fixed in 2.03 if you already know about it !

 

The idea of a holy sword is a neat one, and would certainly fit some types of missions. But it would have to be a mapper-created thing, not a default tool.

 

I disagree. I'm not a sword fighter at all but if someone wants to have this option, why not give it to him? It's consistent and logical, but making this a mapper-created tool would make people wonder why it works in some missions and not others. And as Taffer418 said, it wouldn't unbalance missions either because any water you use on a sword is lost for arrows.

Edited July 15, 2014 by wesp5

[Springheel]

Well, this bug will certainly be fixed in 2.03 if you already know about it

 

Actually, no. It's a variation of a bug that's been known for a while, and it's not an easy fix. Sometimes the engine doesn't properly detect the surface type when there is a collision. Undead flesh takes far less damage than normal flesh, but if the code doesn't detect the surface type, then full damage is done.

 

I disagree. I'm not a sword fighter at all but if someone wants to have this option, why not give it to him?

 

Because, as was already pointed out, adding this to the core tools could change the balance of existing undead maps. Currently, mappers can control how easily players defeat undead by limiting the number of water arrows. Also, part of the tension of undead maps is deciding whether to use limited water arrows to create shadows, or save them to deal with undead. Changing the way holy water works messes with that balance.

[nbohr1more]

I agree, we shouldn't change the default sword behavior but a weapon slot for a new "holy sword" as part of the core mod does sound good.

I would love to see what mission authors do with that.

[wesp5]

Because, as was already pointed out, adding this to the core tools could change the balance of existing undead maps. Currently, mappers can control how easily players defeat undead by limiting the number of water arrows.

 

Isn't the number of holy water bottles the real limiting factor in most of the maps and not the number of water arrows? I can't remember ever having played a map where I ran out of water arrows before I ran out of holy water...

 

Also it seems to me this kind of change would be really minor in changing the balance of missions compared to the new audio system changes you just released !

Edited July 15, 2014 by wesp5

[SteveL]

Isn't the number of holy water bottles the real limiting factor in most of the maps and not the number of water arrows? I can't remember ever having played a map where I ran out of water arrows before I ran out of holy water...

No, they're different. Holy water has no other purpose. Arrows have two uses and so players have to make a decision how to spend their resources. I've seen lots of spots where I've had to make that decision.

 

Also it seems to me this kind of change would be really minor in changing the balance of missions compared to the new audio system changes you just released !

The sound propagation was a fix not a design change. Hearing had been carefully calibrated at the fixed level, not the broken one. And it doesn't really matter whether a change is minor or not, it'll only get done if it's desirable!

[wesp5]

And it doesn't really matter whether a change is minor or not, it'll only get done if it's desirable!

 

I only mentioned the sound propagation because Springheel argued that existing missions could become unbalanced by core changes which could happen by fixing core issues as well, so this argument wasn't valid IMHO.

 

And I will now playing devil's advocat again to get some bashing, please remember I'm a stubborn newbie and know little about the TDM development , but when was the last time a real core change or addition was actually implemented? Everything suggested in this thread that looked like more than a fix of already existing stuff usually got turned down for whatever reasons. Could it be that you are all pretty well pleased with how TDM is at the moment and have no interest at all to actually add new features? Maybe because it is closest now to the original Thief games and you want to keep that?

Edited July 16, 2014 by wesp5

[Springheel]

Could it be that you are all pretty well pleased with how TDM is at the moment and have no interest at all to actually add new features?

 

Please do some research. We post the changelog for each of the twelve updates we've made to TDM since it was released, including the one two weeks ago, which added at least two new features.

[New Horizon]

Could it be that you are all pretty well pleased with how TDM is at the moment and have no interest at all to actually add new features?

 

Do you just keep adding more and more and more for the sake of adding something new though? That just turns into feature creep...adding features out of boredom. There has to be a point in every project when you take a look at it and say, ok...THIS is the core mod. From there on there may still be some smaller new features, optimizations and refinements but any major game changers that aren't bug fixes are likely to be mapper dependent.

[wesp5]

We post the changelog for each of the twelve updates we've made to TDM since it was released, including the one two weeks ago, which added at least two new features.

 

I checked the last one before I posted. What would you call two new features there? The most basic change for me would be the AI noticing being robbed but that still is only a minor AI adjustment compared to e.g. new weapon suggestions...

[wesp5]

Do you just keep adding more and more and more for the sake of adding something new though?

 

No, but some suggestions here were really "things that could be improved" as the thread name suggests. The holy-water-on-sword-idea for example would have improved the game for some without hurting others.

 

There has to be a point in every project when you take a look at it and say, ok...THIS is the core mod.

 

Maybe, but is TDM already that far along? Adding new stuff keeps a mod alive and I'm speaking out of experience here. In my Bloodlines patches I am often fixing small things like you did in 2.02 that most people won't even notice, but every now and then we restore a new map or similar major thing which gets people exited! A negative example would be the fantastic The Babylon Project game. For month the guys there are working on details like turrets firing through walls and similar but they don't release their work to the public, even while the space combat sim hype is going strong. I know TDM isn't doing that yet, but if you refuse to include new ideas, how soon it will be that there's nothing more left to do? Okay, there'll always be new bugs, but you know what I mean !

 

...but any major game changers that aren't bug fixes are likely to be mapper dependent.

 

And here I see a big problem! Like if someone included the holy-water-on-sword-idea I would wonder why it doesn't work elsewhere. Wouldn't it be better to offer the broadest base of features so mappers don't have to divert from the core game features?

[New Horizon]

Read my post above. Major sweeping changes should not be expected as part of the 'core' Mod at this point. There are always exceptions to the rule of course, but I don't believe features need to be added just for the sake of adding new features.

[Springheel]

I checked the last one before I posted. What would you call two new features there?

 

You can now increase the AI's suspicion level if you aren't careful during pickpocketing, which is a new gameplay feature. AI now have a new series of behaviours if you interrupt their door handling in a non-stealthy manner. Both of these change the way gameplay works, in admittedly minor ways (making major changes to gameplay would obviously be out of the question at this point). The new door-handling feature being considered for the next update was already discussed in this forum. This alone should be enough evidence that the suggestion that we "have no interest at all to actually add new features" is false.

 

Holy swords will not be implemented (IMO) in the core mod for the following reasons:

 

1. Reduces the resource spending tension currently in place.

2. Potentially damages balance mappers have set in existing maps.

3. Encourages player to deal with opponents using direct combat, which runs counter to our design philosophy.

4. Gives the player no new gameplay options--simply makes an existing option easier.

 

The player can already fight and kill AI with the sword. This idea would not add anything new to the player's range of options, and has potentially harmful side effects. This makes it a bad candidate for inclusion into the core mod. I don't think I can break it down any more than that.

[esme]

One possible change I've seen mentioned in another thread, it doesn't affect gameplay but would help keep missions up to date.

 

Use MD5's to verify PK4 files are up to date.

 

In order to keep the load at the server and client down, missions.tdminfo could have an extra field defined for MD5 information and a MD5 is computed once when a mission is uploaded to the servers.

 

If this field exists in missions.tdminfo then the value is used as the local MD5, if it doesn't exist a MD5 is computed for the PK4 and added to the missions.tdminfo file.

 

Then, if the local MD5is different to the servers MD5 the mission gets added to the available download list, on download the servers MD5 entry is copied to the local MD5 entry.

 

Araneidae came up with this one http://forums.thedar...post__p__350111

[wesp5]

(making major changes to gameplay would obviously be out of the question at this point)

 

This is basically all I wanted to hear, so you consider TDM finished right now except for details. I can understand that because you also want to stay true to the original Thief games. But is there a chance to do a plus version of the mod featuring new stuff? I choose that road with my unofficial Bloodlines patch...

 

1. Reduces the resource spending tension currently in place.

 

Probably, but normally the holy water is the limit, not the water arrows.

 

2. Potentially damages balance mappers have set in existing maps.

 

Only valid for a few undead maps compared to e.g. the sound fix which affects much more maps.

 

3. Encourages player to deal with opponents using direct combat, which runs counter to our design philosophy.

 

I agree to that. In fact I never yet killed anyone with a sword and didn't know you could kill undead that way at all.

 

4. Gives the player no new gameplay options--simply makes an existing option easier.

 

I don't know, it would indeed give you a new gameplay option, e.g. in case you wasted all your holy water arrows ...

Edited July 16, 2014 by wesp5

[Springheel]

But is there a chance to do a plus version of the mod featuring new stuff? I choose that road with my unofficial Bloodlines patch...

 

Anybody can make any new stuff or branches they want.

 

 

Probably, but normally the holy water is the limit, not the water arrows.

 

This has already been explained by at least one other person besides me, but the tension comes from deciding whether to use water arrows for attacking or for creating shadows. It has nothing to do with a holy water limit.

 

 

Only valid for a few undead maps compared to e.g. the sound fix which affects much more maps.

 

Are you being obtuse on purpose? The "sound fix" is a FIX. This has ALSO been explained already. There is a difference between affecting maps by fixing a bug, and affecting maps by adding a new feature.

 

 

I don't know, it would indeed give you a new gameplay option, e.g. in case you wasted all your holy water arrows

 

No, it does not. You already have the gameplay option of fighting undead with your sword.

[Sotha]

You can always make a holy sword, a holy hand grenade or whatever for your own mission. That makes TDM special, the mappers can add what they want. Not everything needs to be in the core mod.

 

You can even implement your ideas and release them in as a TDM mod. A separate .pk4 that people put in their tdm folder, which replaces the player sword with a magical chainsaw or whatever. Often, it is just our imagination that limits us, so go forth and create!

[Obsttorte]

What is always a bit tiresome in this thread is that if suggestion gets not accepted, people are starting a long and tiresome argument.

 

You should not forget that you ask other peoples to invest their time in doing something you want. In addition, it is not like it has been said that your idea is just dumb. We have brought up arguments to explain why this is not feasible as a core feature.

 

It has also been said that this is something that can be done mapperwise, it does not need any changes in the source code. So if you really want this feature, you can modify your tdm installment yourself to get the desired behaviour.

 

It's not a problem if you want to bring up arguments to convince other peoples of your opinion. But at a certain point you should learn to accept a no.

[wesp5]

It has also been said that this is something that can be done mapperwise, it does not need any changes in the source code.

 

Okay, I'm a complete newbie here but what would a mapper need to do to e.g. create a new weapon? I have only played about two dozend FMs yet, but I can't remember seeing anything like this. Can you point me to some FMs that do this?

 

But at a certain point you should learn to accept a no.

 

Yeah. that's my problem . But somehow since I am following this thread I have the impression there never has been a yes to any suggestion that's wasn't about some minor AI issue! Or did I miss something? Don't get me wrong, your mod is a fantastic work and you do it for free as well. But I'm kind of dissappointed that answers in this thread normally go like let the mappers do it. And just for the record, the holy-sword thing wasn't my idea and I would never use it as I don't fight in TDM at all, I just got annoyed by the usual quick dismissal !

Edited July 17, 2014 by wesp5

[SteveL]

It wasn't that quick a dismissal. I chipped in and supported the idea before others who'd thought about it better came along and convinced me otherwise. There are some ideas that get brushed off quickly, but that's because they've been debated so many times. You must have noticed by now that once or twice a month, someone will post a detailed proposal for giving tdm a mission hub that connects all fms. And ideas are very welcome, if they fit the current game. TDM is a mature project so the fundamentals are fixed, but there's plenty of work going on. Just look at the assigned and recently completed issues on the bugtracker to get a flavor of the work that does go on.

 

Another idea that we both supported, consolidating some shortcut keys, wasn't bad at all imo, but that one probably had the opposite problem: too small a change to generate much interest or make it to the top of anyone's to do list. I liked it but I have 8 or so other issues assigned to me on the tracker all of which are more interesting to work on.

 

Ps To make a new weapon: instructions are on the wiki in the Inventory article.

[Sotha]

On quick dismissal.

We should be happy that the team has a clear vision what TDM should be and what it shouldn't.

 

Considering TDM is a free time project by many people of different countries, backgrounds and personalities, it is a miraculous feat how well-thought and well-constructed TDM is.

 

The team has done almost every right decision on the way up to this point. If the vision had faltered along the way, I think, TDM would never had made it so far. It would have succumbed to feature creep and been lost into the dead projects buried in the sediments of the internet.

[wesp5]

I chipped in and supported the idea before others who'd thought about it better came along and convinced me otherwise.

 

Yeah, but some of these arguments still make little sense to me. But enough of that, it wasn't my idea in the first place .

 

You must have noticed by now that once or twice a month, someone will post a detailed proposal for giving tdm a mission hub that connects all fms.

 

Yes, and quite the same I like the idea and don't get why you don't do it. The arguments about different characters or themes could easily be circumvented, but I do understand that nobody has the time and nerve to do it, because there is the unfinished campaign too...

 

I liked it but I have 8 or so other issues assigned to me on the tracker all of which are more interesting to work on.

 

Well, maybe it will be done one fine day in the future whenever you are finished or bored with the other stuff .

 

To make a new weapon: instructions are on the wiki in the Inventory article.

 

Okay, but has anybody ever created one?

[wesp5]

Considering TDM is a free time project by many people of different countries, backgrounds and personalities, it is a miraculous feat how well-thought and well-constructed TDM is.

 

Yeah, I'm probably misjudging the effort of creating such a big and beautiful project with many people in their free time. How many members are there in development anyway?

 

It would have succumbed to feature creep and been lost into the dead projects buried in the sediments of the internet.

 

Yes, and to me TDM looks quite finished now! So why not risk a little more feature creep now that the core is solid ?

Edited July 17, 2014 by wesp5

[SteveL]

The arguments about different characters or themes could easily be circumvented

 

Maybe, but that's not the main argument against it. The big thing is that you can't possibly, ever, allow the player to accumulate equipment to take into the next FM. That would break every existing map, and make the game trivially easy. You could accumulate as many gas arrows as you liked, by reverting to an earlier save if you used any in an FM and making a new save if you come out of an FM with more than you started with. Without equipment continuity, the hub would just become another FM, one that you have to load before starting a new mission, and that would be tedious.

 

This isn't a TDM problem. Many games become trivial towards the end because of it, like TDS did. Others introduce harder enemies or bigger bosses to compensate, but obviously that can't work in a game where the player has the freedom to play any mission at any time, and anyway it's not what TDM is about.

[wesp5]

The big thing is that you can't possibly, ever, allow the player to accumulate equipment to take into the next FM. That would break every existing map, and make the game trivially easy.

 

I agree with that, but I never assumed this was the main reason for people asking for a hub. To me it is more about making TDM a "real game" (you probably remember the discussion) by including a hub with the training mission, so there is no way people could argue that TDM is only a tool kit for fan missions ! Right now the training mission is just one amongst many and it doesn't even register as being completed, unless you manually change the text file of it.

 

Without equipment continuity, the hub would just become another FM, one that you have to load before starting a new mission, and that would be tedious.

 

See above, for beginners it could be used as training mission, but you are right, later on you'll waste loading time for nothing. Maybe there could be a new menu option called "new game" (main hub with training mission, st.lucia and later the campaign) and "new mission" renamed into "fan mission"? Still it would be more of a cosmetic thing and somebody would have to create it while it seems everyone is busy with their own missions or the too long going campaign!

Edited July 17, 2014 by wesp5

[Obsttorte]

Okay, I'm a complete newbie here but what would a mapper need to do to e.g. create a new weapon? I have only played about two dozend FMs yet, but I can't remember seeing anything like this. Can you point me to some FMs that do this?

Ps To make a new weapon: instructions are on the wiki in the Inventory article.

Okay, but has anybody ever created one?

I've shown how to create a custom arrow in my Let's Map videos (see signature). In addition, I've never said it has been done, I just say it can be done.

 

Holy Water arrows are using a stim, and undeads are responding to it. So all in all you just have to add a holy stim to the player sword.