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Bikerdude

TDM versus TDS

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Just looking at the screenshots of the upcoming TDS compaign "The Cabal" and the TDM mission's myself and Melan have been working on - on a cursory glance TDM clearly looks better -

 

- http://translate.goo...F&sl=auto&tl=en

 

TDS:

 

screen10.jpg

screen11.jpg

CABAL_FF_001.jpg

CABAL_FF_002.jpg

 

TDM:

 

screen002.jpg

screen003.jpg

screen004.jpg

screen002.jpg

screen001.jpg

 

 

 

screen003.jpg

 

ps. the first few TDM shots are from Melan's new WIP...:wub: and the last 3 are from my expansion/upgrade work on Return to the city.

Edited by Bikerdude

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The first + second pics of TDS are very good - intense feeling - but that's it - the third seems so artificial. In TDS everything is so blue.. It looks nice but not realistic. It would be cool if someone would build a very small TDS map in TDM so we could better compare it.

 

EDIT2: I hate the compass in T3 - ugly!! so little polygons

 

 

 

 

 

I like the grafics of The dark mod more than T3 - they have more polygons (but sometimes the texture resolution could be better - TDM)

 

EDIT: Return of the return of the city? More space? more sidequests ;) ?? PLEASE ;) - everywhere on the map more ways to go ? ;)

Edited by Berny

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To be honest , T3 still looks better to me because its a lot more coherently lowres :D While in Tdm its still a mix of great to not so great.

For example that stonebrick texture on the last picture could do really good in a t1-2 like game where imaginary works a lot more compared to detailed graphics of nowadays..But here it just looks plain boring and screams at you to forget immersion.

Point is ,not much but some of the textures still remind me a lot of ' high-res texture pack ' stuff..( old tech texture in high res with some detail filters on ) if these were to be replaced tdm would look so much more professional. Now if only you had a dozen of texture artists...:)

 

Ps: altough in effort TDM still rocks the crap out of t3:)

Edited by _Atti_

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Ouch, that last picture is the second thing I ever built for TDM after the obligatory room-and-a-corridor. Please have mercy!

 

I'll note: those are some neat textures Tiens is working with.

Edited by Melan

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First of all, I think both games look of comparable graphics. I mean they BOTH look good.

However, remember that this is not necessarily a TDM-TDS graphic comparison, but more of a mapper style comparison.

 

In my eyes it looks like this Tiens keeps moderate detail level in his map. Basically his pictures contain the essential objects to relay the scene. He does not seem be much into tiny details. The scenes seem to be intentionally built relatively low-poly to insure smooth performance at all times.

 

We all know Melan from his Return to the city, which is full of detail everywhere. His style is to pay attention to the minute details.

 

These two are different kind of mapping styles.

 

I appreciate greatly Melan's style, but my personal preference leans more to Tiens-style, because too much details results in poor performance. Having a zillion thingies in the scene is not good if it results in choppyness.

 

EDIT:

Yep, those textures Tiens has are wonderful.

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I appreciate greatly Melan's style, but my personal preference leans more to Tiens-style, because too much details results in poor performance. Having a zillion thingies in the scene is not good if it results in choppyness.

Fortunately, the chop in my FM is more related to poor visportaling/compartmentalisation and to an extent light than polygons. The same or higher level of detail can be achieved with significantly better performance as long as people aren't making the same errors I did.

 

Also, the Rocksbourg shots are brilliant. That second one is particularly effective with its stacked rooflines. Wow. :wub:

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And the winner is... Thief 2!

 

Good god. My first impression was that why someone has image manipulated thief HUD on an old post card image.:wub:

 

And probably those scenes run 1e3 frames per second on modern hardware. :laugh:

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Also, the Rocksbourg shots are brilliant. That second one is particularly effective with its stacked rooflines. Wow.

I actually thought the last shot was T3, DrK is a genius when it comes to manipulating the dark-engine.

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the unreal engine always seems to cover textures in something resembling clingfilm so they always look plastic and fake or unreal like the name of the engine.

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Now how do we get these people mapping for TDM? A clever scheme is vital here.

Bloody hell on toast, that castle looks bloody awesome.At some point Im gonna build another castle mission, but have it like this where is a central courtyard et.

 

Translated version - http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fthief-forum.ehost.pl%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D4%26t%3D3578&act=url

Edited by Bikerdude

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Now how do we get these people mapping for TDM? A clever scheme is vital here.

One thing I am absolutely sure of: not by talking down T1/T2/T3. In fact, that tends to bother me, and I am one of the already convinced. <_<

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Now how do we get these people mapping for TDM? A clever scheme is vital here.

 

no how.some people thats make amazing missions in dromed-never do that in another editor

 

anyway every darkmod missions looks monotonous and boring (I'm sorry)

Edited by Shadowhide

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And the winner is... Thief 2!

:laugh:

 

Fair enough and partly true. However that is with the caveat of hundreds of hands and hours contributing simply gorgeous texture packs to T2. If they'd contribute the same level of effort to TDM...

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I honestly think T3 and TDM look pretty comparable graphics wise. You have to look pretty damn close to see any real differences imo. (though stock T3 does do the bland + blue alot)

 

Seriously, maybe TDS has some better textures, but stock I do feel alot of them are a bit bland. But they do have great windows (which we need really badly). But the points were made that alot of the screenshot comparision is Melan vrs Tiens. All those screens look pretty good to me.

 

Then only thing that bothers me with that brick in the last shot of Melan's is the bricks on the wall in the light have that really thin sliver there, adjusting the brick back so it's a nice thick brick profile at the corner would help alot. (mainly just because it catches so much light)

 

I don't really get the non-cohesive' stuff though. Sure alot of things by different people may have somewhat different styles, but nothing stands out like 'that's photo realistic, that's cartoony.

In fact I think that the differences in styles help to a degree. It's medieval, there aren't large companies stamping out clones. everything is hand made by different people all over.

 

Those T2 shots do look great no doubt. Dromed was a great lighting engine (for baked lighting) and with higher quality textures it changes the looks alot.

But if that scene was done in TDM it could look 3 times as spectacular imo. It could have the same tex, higher res, plus alot more detail. So I wouldn't say it wins, I'd just say that those are great examples of how good it CAN look. Unfortunately it's using my old candles (which look like crap) and those fire particles that I absolutely abhore. (Sorry Eshaktaar).

Plus there is the vaulted ceiling which is very cool to see in Dromed, but most likely an object so the collision is borked and you can probably shoot arrows through it.

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For me, TDS is too cartoony and fake looking. Even shots without bug-eyed bad-proportioned AI still look like cartoons. TDM textures have a ways to go but at least they're on the right track for better realism.

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With the original (XBOXified) TDS textures, I would say "Of course TDM looks much better". However, if you use the enhancement pack for TDS from John P, it is a more interesting fight. That is obviously cheating though.

 

I don't understand why the TDS crew couldn't have made high-res textures for the PC version and then just downsized them for the XBOX version.

 

With TDM, we also get things like shimmering, refractive water and larger/more open areas.

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I don't understand why the TDS crew couldn't have made high-res textures for the PC version and then just downsized them for the XBOX version.

 

I'm guessing because there wasn't an xbox version...they were one and the same. They didn't have the development power to maintain both texture repos. I'm guessing it was also necessary at the time since most machines at the time couldn't really handle TDS anyway...even the higher end cards at the time struggled.

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You are having yourselves on.

 

T2 looks washed out and monotonous. Not even close to the other two...

 

As for the other two, TDS beats TDM. Not overwhelmingly and (importantly) not insurmountably, just in the coherence and such as been mentioned.

 

But besides all that (the joke about T2, the slight edge to TDS). Neither of them holds a candle ( ;) ) to TDM in gameplay, which is the very most important thing of all.

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anyway every darkmod missions looks monotonous and boring (I'm sorry)

...but plays damn fantastically! :P

 

I'll say that the visuals of TDS tie together better than the very widely useful textures of TDM. In that concern, TDS's graphic appeal is cleaner.

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I'm guessing because there wasn't an xbox version...they were one and the same. They didn't have the development power to maintain both texture repos. I'm guessing it was also necessary at the time since most machines at the time couldn't really handle TDS anyway...even the higher end cards at the time struggled.

 

My Geforce 4 TI 4600 ran TDS quite well. It was almost two years old when the game came out, but I'll admit it wasn't a mainstream card. I'll bet it could even run TDM, but the performance would not be good. That was the first (and only) time I will ever spend more than $300 on a video card. It doesn't matter how powerful a card is: once a new 3D API like Directx 9 or OpenGL 4.0 comes out, that expensive card won't hold a candle to even mid-range cards released with said features.

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Wow, every TDM mission looks monotonous and boring! What a broad based statment.

 

I haven't found that to be the case. Maybe MY mission for the contest was a bit boring, but I've had alot of fun in almost every mission that's been released.

True that the first missions were small, and not complicated scripting wise. Of course you could say that for the first couple T-FM's too. Also alot has changed since the first few were released.

 

NHAT was boring/monotonous ? Heart ?

Those are probably the two most decorated, largest, most involved missions yet. I wasn't bored a minute in either one. Heart might look more monotonous throughout the level (it is one building although there are some strikingly different areas throughout it so I don't think so), but NHAT certianly can't qualify, throughout the series you have an ocean scene, a city street area, a large church... So even within that mission I couldn't say it's monotonous.

 

And considering how close the actual gameplay is to Thief's if you find it boring and monotonous you surely must feel the same about T2 FM's (compare anything from 2000-2004 to TDM as those were early and TDM missions are still early in development, takes people awhile to figure out all the hard stuff so people can come along later and pull out all the stops easily)

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My Geforce 4 TI 4600 ran TDS quite well. It was almost two years old when the game came out, but I'll admit it wasn't a mainstream card. I'll bet it could even run TDM, but the performance would not be good.

I'll take that bet. :) You're right, it will. I spent my first 3(?) years on TDM with a TI 4600. Does a decent job, not spectacular, but fast enough to enjoy. I then upgraded... for $18 (GF6800). Not a bad price for doubling framerate.

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