Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

TDM Is The Now And The Future


Aprilsister

Recommended Posts

And... while all of these codez and notez are interesting and fun and certainly useful to read through... TDM + DR is where any real time and effort should be placed.

That's the TDM point of view of course - but not everybody is regarding TDM as an option to spend his free time on. Obviously there are a couple of knowledgeable coders around TTLG, but only a few of them have found their way to TDM or didn't have time or whatever. They rather want to spend their time exclusively on Thief-related coding projects, which is their choice.

 

I'm curious how many coders the TTLG Thief community will be able to spawn to work on that. I'd personally feel a tad bitter if all of a sudden 10-15 coders start working on the Thief source code, when TDM was desperate for help over the past 6 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 90
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

They rather want to spend their time exclusively on Thief-related coding projects, which is their choice.

 

TDM is a the Thief-related coding project.

 

Yeah.

 

I don't know that we are arguing here, it seems I'm arguing for you and TDM, and you are telling me things that are self-evident ("not everybody is regarding TDM..." " "it's their choice"...).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the TDM point of view of course - but not everybody is regarding TDM as an option to spend his free time on. Obviously there are a couple of knowledgeable coders around TTLG, but only a few of them have found their way to TDM or didn't have time or whatever. They rather want to spend their time exclusively on Thief-related coding projects, which is their choice.

 

I'm curious how many coders the TTLG Thief community will be able to spawn to work on that. I'd personally feel a tad bitter if all of a sudden 10-15 coders start working on the Thief source code, when TDM was desperate for help over the past 6 years.

 

I can just underwrite this. Seeing the old code surface is cool, but if suddenly a lot of resources get devoted to that, that would be sad for us. (Of course I won't tell anybody where they spent their time on. Its their time. Am just expressing my wishes.)

 

It would of course show the "true" focus of these people "keep thief alive, not get soemthing different/better/whatever" and that we can basically never "win" them for our side, so at least we know we shouldn't spent energy winning them over anymore.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but if suddenly a lot of resources get devoted to that, that would be sad for us.

 

It'll be sad for the whole community. It's a terrible waste of time. It's got a lot of downside. The legal issues being just the beginning (and a beginning that will probably drag on and on and on as silly bullshit arguments get repeated and repeated)... then once that nonsense is not dealt with there is the even sadder element that should have been dealt with by now... that TDM has been the best way to go all along.

 

Yeah, it will be sad for you. It will be sad for the whole community. And it is going to happen too.

 

All this because not enough people are willing to stand up and affirm that TDM is clearly where all the talented people in the community should be focused.

 

Of course you can't tell anybody what to do; of course it's their choice; but for fucks sake you can be a little more openly and honestly passionate about TDM.

 

...

 

"Oh no no no I hope to see people working on T2 FMs forever!"

 

Bullshit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Of course you can't tell anybody what to do; of course it's their choice; but for fucks sake you can be a little more openly and honestly passionate about TDM.

 

Rest assured, I personally have no inclination to stop working on TDM, and if you see the v1.03, you will see that not only it is good, it also will be getting better and better :) Whoever wants to "better us" will have to make up for a year-long headstart from our side :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey, if it's not obvious I'm already on your side. I just wish that there wasn't such an "our side" thing going on. The community shouldn't be at these odds. There has been too much bullshit let fly. Too many concessions to stick-in-the-mud, narrow-minded mulishness.

 

You guys have got more than a year on T2, you've got about 8 years(?)...

 

This messing around with T1/T2 ought to have been served with a figurative cease-and-desist consensus by now.

 

Not que sera sera! hey hurrah hurrah! y'all keep it up "understanding" attitude.

 

...

 

I am positive 1.03 is going to be great. I mean 1.03? There's some 70+ documented enhancements. It really deserves more than a .01 bump -- I'm sure of that too.

 

And I'm especially excited by the new tdm_update I anticipate. Which, combined with whatever you guys have further smoothed out behind the scenes along those lines, may just make it so that the 116MB of textures Serpentine and Melan have just submitted (but missed this 1.03 cutoff) will be able to be rolled out -- "voila!" -- so quickly as to shock even the most optimistic of us. ;)

Edited by Aprilsister
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Oh no no no I hope to see people working on T2 FMs forever!"
Bullshit.

Bullshit indeed. They ought to be working more on proper TDP/Gold missions.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Precisely. -_-

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's kindof funny that people are still trying to do something with the source code.

 

Over the years there have been what, 5 people total who could script/code for T1-T2. And even those people were concerned with releasing scripts and whatnot.

 

So what will people do with the code if they can use it? Re-write the engine so it can handle more polys on screen? Still stuck with all the old low poly models, still can't animate the characters easily, etc...

I don't think any of the old school scripters there want to get involved in that.

It would probably take tons of work to make any improvements that would only show up in new FM's?

 

Guess I just don't see the point. TDM is already a level up from anything Dromed could probably ever be imo.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's kindof funny that people are still trying to do something with the source code.

 

Over the years there have been what, 5 people total who could script/code for T1-T2. And even those people were concerned with releasing scripts and whatnot.

 

So what will people do with the code if they can use it? Re-write the engine so it can handle more polys on screen? Still stuck with all the old low poly models, still can't animate the characters easily, etc...

I don't think any of the old school scripters there want to get involved in that.

It would probably take tons of work to make any improvements that would only show up in new FM's?

 

Guess I just don't see the point. TDM is already a level up from anything Dromed could probably ever be imo.

 

Back in 1998 (or so it feel) I reverse engineered the file formats for Thief so I could build a Perl script that automatically builds a mission for Thief (basically a GUI-less replacement for Dromed). It never went off because:

 

* it is hard to use for non-programmers

* i never could figure out the format completely

 

So, say 6-8 years ago, I would have been excited, because I could finish my script. But these days? I have enough work to "complete" the D3 engine used in TDM, anything that has *less* features than D3 would be a (massive) step back, so I am not interested anymore. (guess I am repeating myself :)

 

Anyway, it is still a historical event and if there are lonely winter nights, I might look into the old code for an amusing read.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Tels/OT: Xarax claimed to have build huge parts of his missions using CowGen ;)

 

I know, I worked closely with him. See my .sig? :) Btw, does anybody still have a contact for him? Did he release a full FM? His website disappeared when Yahoo pulled geocities, I think.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Wow, seriously cool. Shame I can't try them (no Thief here installed). Anybody has screenshots?

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That brings back memories, Varyx Obelisk was the first mission I ever betatested. I still have fond memories of some of this level, the keeper compound in particular.

 

I believe the outside city section was done using CowGen which I thought was pretty cool at the time, but I guess it would be difficult making anything 'organic' looking with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've been reading the T2 source code and it's sort of fun, like reading an old book.

 

Their sword code allows short and long swipes, then the held big swipe, damage as an inverse function of distance and oblique angle to the target, solidity just when it's hitting a hittable target I think (I always wondered why it swiped through BSP) and pending action & solidity to deal with equipping & sheathing, then you see how the blackjack was appended into the sword code but a bit hackish and there's apologies (if I understand the "i suck" part right, lol). A lot of the comments are self-deprecating, but funny too... You feel for them and their problem & time constraints. You like these guys; they're like us. This is why the source code is awesome to have. I don't see a rivalry because I feel like we're carrying on the same spirit they did and we should keep it up, with their source code as a great inspiration.

 

Edit: I do very much support the effort to make sure T2 FMs can continue to be played far into the future on new OS's and hardware, and across OS's. As for improving the game, that's to the personal desire for anyone wanting to work on it. If it makes them happy then that's a good thing.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the outside city section was done using CowGen which I thought was pretty cool at the time, but I guess it would be difficult making anything 'organic' looking with it.

Random generation works best when you supplement the results with your imagination. It is often very inspiring for me since it takes step I would never consciously make - it builds a creative tension that can be used to create something new and unexpected.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow, is there a way to use it somehow? I dig random generation.

Not sure it's random generation per se, I think you just run a perl script with some parameters and out pops a file containing architecture that DromEd can import. Tels can clarify if I'm totally off, but I think that's how it worked.

 

Random generation works best when you supplement the results with your imagination. It is often very inspiring for me since it takes step I would never consciously make - it builds a creative tension that can be used to create something new and unexpected.

That's the weird thing about level design, it's drummed into your head that you need to plan everything ahead of time, build 'cleanly', avoid odd intersecting angles + shapes, but sometimes a haphazard approach to building ends up with a more rewarding outcome. Similar to how old cities are often more visually appealing as they seemed to almost come to life naturally before proper city planning largely replaced this kind of situation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's great that the old and the new can exist side by side. They're equally valid in my opinion. It's just a matter of what kind of canvas you'd like to paint this particular idea upon. I'd rather see an improved and easier to handle editor that an improved engine really. Often constraints are freeing in art.

Where are the REAL brits?! The one's we have are just brit-ish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the weird thing about level design, it's drummed into your head that you need to plan everything ahead of time, build 'cleanly', avoid odd intersecting angles + shapes, but sometimes a haphazard approach to building ends up with a more rewarding outcome. Similar to how old cities are often more visually appealing as they seemed to almost come to life naturally before proper city planning largely replaced this kind of situation.

Exactly.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recent Status Updates

    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 1 reply
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
    • OrbWeaver

      I like the new frob highlight but it would nice if it was less "flickery" while moving over objects (especially barred metal doors).
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      Please vote in the 15th Anniversary Contest Theme Poll
       
      · 0 replies
×
×
  • Create New...