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ungoliant

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I would say that when he says "boring", he actually means "frustrating and therefore not fun".
woops, there goes that theory spring.

Well, I was talking about LongShad, who said: "Most FMs are boring for me because they often get stuck". You posted a quote from Alex-X-x, who has a different opinion.

 

And many are also impatient to wait, for really huge and interesting FM's are out, and they have to blame, most small and boring FMs we've got until yet.

 

Most of the missions released so far have been contest missions where there was a two-month deadline, so that's the reason they tend to be small (though I would argue that even small missions can be a lot of fun...try Glenham Manor if you haven't already). There are a good number of larger missions, however. Have you played the 3-mission campaign, "No Honour Among Thieves"? There is also "Heart of Lone Salvation" which is fairly large.

 

Also, if you're waiting for missions that rival "Shalebridge Cradle", you might be setting your standards just a bit high. That mission was one of the best ever released for Thief. If we were already producing things of that quality within a year of our release, I'd be shocked.

 

I think it's cool of the darkfate people to actually come over here and offer their opinion, despite the language barrier.

 

Same here. :)

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Yes but if my player notes work then you can have the best of both worlds. Set a cvar and they won't show at all for those who don't want help. Even if they show you don't need to read them but can try to solve it yourself. If you get stuck then you can refer to them at different levels. Finally, if you have no interest in reading clues you can just read the player notes on the last page for a fairly explicit direction what to do for those that want it.

 

In Nightwatch I was limited by trying to squeeze player notes into one readable; now I'm using separate ones so unlimited. And you can throw away any you don't want. And you can bind a key to scroll through them exclusively. Plus they will be part of the game - the character you play notes them down so they are normal readables; you consult your own notes to remind yourself.

 

Adding a player voice I would have thought would make it more difficult for non-English speakers plus some people hate it when Garrett suddenly exclaims aloud.

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Most of the missions released so far have been contest missions where there was a two-month deadline, so that's the reason they tend to be small (though I would argue that even small missions can be a lot of fun...try Glenham Manor if you haven't already). There are a good number of larger missions, however. Have you played the 3-mission campaign, "No Honour Among Thieves"? There is also "Heart of Lone Salvation" which is fairly large.

These missions play a different role and there is a place for both. Sometimes, I want to delve into something epic and spend an evening or afternoon playing. And sometimes, I want a 20-30 minute diversion (Special Delivery and Thieves are missions I have replayed about five or six times each, precisely because they fill a small time period perfectly). Small missions shouldn't be seen as lesser work, just different - hors d'oeuvre vs. the main dish.

 

Variety is good. :)

Edited by Melan

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Aprilsister

The FMs don't get stuck. You get stuck.

Yes, it is.

STiFU

which PARTIALLY contain useful information
Yes, partially. Need all translate, and not all reflect that understand next goal.

 

visual clues

and

hints in the form of new objectives

Is better that just many pages of text. Even after dictionary and auto-translation unclear left. And not easy find important info in text.

 

Fidcal

Adding a player voice I would have thought would make it more difficult for non-English speakers

But clear what he said something important for pass.

 

Sorry, tldr, not all read, many words. :wacko:

Edited by LongShad
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though I would argue that even small missions can be a lot of fun...try Glenham Manor if you haven't already

 

:wub:

 

Glenham Tower, sir. ;)

 

On FM size:

I'm the kind of junkie who hates to leave a FM for a break. The mission needs to be completed in one run, a break makes me forget what was happening. Plus it breaks the immersion somehow for me.

 

Therefore small/medium FM the size category of choice for me and that's why I always build this size. Players can expect roughly 1-2 hrs of fun, which is the amount of time typical person can reasonably spend at their computer in one session.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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1) There are people who want more complex maps from TDM, with more object interaction, something that would take hours of play to solve.

 

Damn yeah! ;)

As for me this is the main... hmm... "problem" for now in most of TDM fms, I really like almost everything in the mod (i mean sound, graphic, gameplay etc), but most of fms are like a small part of one really complex huge mission, but I understand perfectly, that the main thing there is time for the mappers to learn how to use TDM tools on full capacity... So - wait, wait, wait... :)

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Damn yeah! ;)

As for me this is the main... hmm... "problem" for now in most of TDM fms, I really like almost everything in the mod (i mean sound, graphic, gameplay etc), but most of fms are like a small part of one really complex huge mission, but I understand perfectly, that the main thing there is time for the mappers to learn how to use TDM tools on full capacity... So - wait, wait, wait... :)

 

What are you waiting for? Santa Claus? Just fire up DR and build it! We work our butts off for over 5 years[0] to give you a complete toolset, and all you do is waiting for someone to build more stuff for you? Unbelievable!

 

Tels

 

0: I have not been 5 years with the team yet, but you know what I mean...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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...you have to appeal to the stupid masses, so that's just the way to go.

 

No.

 

This what pisses me off. It's not the way to go. It's wrong. Fact established. Done. We neededn't be arguing this anymore. It's. Not. The. Way To. Fucking. Go.

 

If any of this results in the slightest dumbing-down then another battle is lost.

 

What Fidcal is doing will hopefully work for those FM authors who want to make things easier for the people that can't be bothered to read and think. But if it results in FM authors wasting any of their otherwise valuable time and, worse, becoming bored themselves with the task of setting up these signposts, then, again... idiocy has triumphed.

 

Not one whit to the witless! :P

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No.

 

This what pisses me off. It's not the way to go. It's wrong. Fact established. Done. We neededn't be arguing this anymore. It's. Not. The. Way To. Fucking. Go.

Just to make sure you got me right there: It was irony!! I am totally of your opinion... Buzz off stupid console gamers! ;)

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What are you waiting for? Santa Claus? Just fire up DR and build it! We work our butts off for over 5 years[0] to give you a complete toolset, and all you do is waiting for someone to build more stuff for you? Unbelievable!

 

It is not necessary to be so nervous, there was a proposition in the first post of the topic to share opinions from darkfate, I state one of them, and not only mine, but also of many people from there. Thats all.

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It is not necessary to be so nervous, there was a proposition in the first post of the topic to share opinions from darkfate, I state one of them, and not only mine, but also of many people from there. Thats all.

 

You are right, it is just your opinion. However, I am a little bit sick of the so-called "critics" that come and only complain:

 

* the missions are too short (do you also complain when an author supplied with free paper and pens by his publisher only writes short stories?)

* the textures are too clean

* the missions are boring

 

etc etc. It seems that no matter whatever we do and how hard we work, people always want more, they want 6 hour missions, 2 of them, and even if we build that, they want a campaign, and if we make that, a DVD and a box, and of course it should be easy to install etc etc etc.

 

(Edit: And half the criticism is about the missions, which is something TDM isn't actually concerned about. We deliver the background, the code, the tools and the engine. We don't do FMs. But somehow their "perceived quality" is reflected back badly at us. End of edit).

 

From here it just seems you can never please. And that get's tiring after a while.

 

Now excuse me, I have to fix a bug that I introduced while fixing another bug. But maybe tonight I get to sleep early...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Dear friends,

 

Be civil. As others have stated several times, there is a language barrier to overcome within some of these critiques. Sometimes words are not used in the context we would expect them to be used, and that can cause huge misunderstandings...and hurt feelings.

 

If there is one thing I know we are all capable of doing, it is trying harder to be patient and understand each other.

 

We can all do much better than this, and I include myself in that statement.

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STiFU

 

:laugh:

 

Alright. As long as we don't start "understanding" the marketplace beyond "understanding" that it is an abject blight.

 

Things have gotten so bad that it's long past the time that this is confined to console-gamers. I'm pretty sure 90% of "gamers" won't complete a game without a walk-through these days. So what is the point of playing RHEM 4 with a walk-through? You're not playing the game at all.

 

And so we get tons of truly monotonous and boring shit churned out... splatterfest after splatterfest after splatterfest... and this mindlessness has crept into other, once better, genres as well, resulting in dreary and unchallenging disappointments such as "Black Mirror", Grey Matter", "Still Life", and much worse, those that don't even pretend to be more than a Disney flip-book or first-rate, third-grade Where's Waldo?

Edited by Aprilsister
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One of the nice things about TDM is that the engine is very open for tweaking... and cheating if you're into that sort of thing. If you have trouble finding a way past a portion of an FM, you could noclip through it and continue. Sure, it is cheating, but at least you're going to continue enjoying the mission, (provided the mission doesn't break from noclipping). There have been T1 and T2 FMs that I just had to quit because I couldn't find a key or a solution to a puzzle. "The Vigil" comes to mind here.

 

I've also had cases where I had to reverse-engineer the map to find my way through it. "I know I'm supposed to get in that room, but I don't know how, so I'll just no-clip in, find the correct way in, and then reload and proceed the right way".

Edited by lost_soul

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.

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I am a little bit sick of the so-called "critics" that come and only complain

 

You're directing your frustration at the wrong person, then. "Holy Thief" said:

 

I really like almost everything in the mod (i mean sound, graphic, gameplay etc), but most of fms are like a small part of one really complex huge mission, but I understand perfectly, that the main thing there is time for the mappers to learn how to use TDM tools on full capacity

 

He wasn't complaining at all. In fact, most of the comments from our DarkFate visitors have been positive. The kinds of reactions they have been getting, on the other hand, are not.

 

People need to relax a bit.

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In fact, most of the comments from our DarkFate visitors have been positive.  The kinds of reactions they have been getting, on the other hand, are not.

 

While this might be debatable, one thing is for sure: We are still waiting for LongShad's sheer awesomeness:

 

 

 

Do not believe me? Let us show you! Only it's not for a DarkRadiant, for DromEd.

 

Tomorrow I'll go more for popcorn.

 

 

 

 

(I'm actually really curious. I'd really like to see some nice screenshots or something that excites me.)

 

 

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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You're directing your frustration at the wrong person, then. "Holy Thief" said:

 

 

 

He wasn't complaining at all. In fact, most of the comments from our DarkFate visitors have been positive.

 

But he is still "waiting" for somebody else to do things for him (release longer missions). But see below:

 

The kinds of reactions they have been getting, on the other hand, are not.

 

People need to relax a bit.

 

Yes, you are right, I was a bit harsh. I am just sometimes feed up with the "give us more" responses while I'd like a "how can I help" response. But maybe I am expexting to much of people who just want to enjoy the game, but do not want to contribute at all.

 

Te"going to bed now"ls

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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why don't you like critics? What does mean, we are waiting, but not doing big FMs by ourselves? Why if i'm a Dark Mod fan, i should be a mapper?

 

If i'm listening to my favorite music band for example, i might also like and dislike some things and have some wishes, how the music could be etc., and might want to discuss about that with someone, but  i should not be a musician at all.

 

If you cant stand critics, just ignore them, but you might miss something important, what could change your mind, and you might say: hmmm, why i didn't though about that earlier, how could i miss that?

 

I understand if you're reading something like that: "This mod sucks", it doesn't bring us further at all, but if people are sharing their opinions, in more clear and friendly form, why should that be bad at all?

 

 

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why don't you like critics? What does mean, we are waiting, but not doing big FMs by ourselves? Why if i'm a Dark Mod fan, i should be a mapper?

 

From the point of the team: yes, you should become a mapper :) If all we got players, then we get no new FMs :) Of course, it is okay if someone just plays, because not everyone has the skills, patience, time or whatever. But:

 

If i'm listening to my favorite music band for example, i might also like and dislike some things and have some wishes, how the music could be etc., and might want to discuss about that with someone, but  i should not be a musician at all.

 

Yes, but you probably shouldn't discuss this with the musician, unless you can do really proper criticism. If you "just don't like his music", well, bad luck for you :)

 

If you cant stand critics, just ignore them, but you might miss something important, what could change your mind, and you might say: hmmm, why i didn't though about that earlier, how could i miss that?

 

I understand if you're reading something like that: "This mod sucks", it doesn't bring us further at all, but if people are sharing their opinions, in more clear and friendly form, why should that be bad at all?

 

Because we are the wrong people to talk to in this case, and (I personally) get tired of hearing the same and same things over and over and over. Let me try to give you an example:

 

* there is a group who build a kitchen, they include all the things (pans, cooking pots), light the fire for you, they even give you ingredients (meat, bread, sauce, salad)

* there is another groups, who makes meals with the provided kitchen (some of the first group also do some testcooking in the kitchen)

* the third group enjoys the meals, but then goes on to say to the first group who built the kitchen:

 

* "some of the meals are a it small" Beside that I think that always amounts to telling a short story author "heh, write some longer books, maybe a triology would be nice", that is also amounts to telling the chef "heh your appetizer was a bit small". Duh! Maybe it is meant to be small!

* some of the meat was cold etc etc.

 

The point is, he who builds the kitchen doesn't really have anything to do what others cook - except in extreme cases where the kitchen is so bad that the chefs must fail or can't work properly.

 

I hope I did make clear that there is a form of critic (pointing out things that are obviously broken) and another from of critic (pointing out what you like or not), but the latter is usually not going to change anything, esp. if you talk to the wrong people in the first place.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Because we are the wrong people to talk to in this case, and (I personally) get tired of hearing the same and same things over and over and over. Let me try to give you an example:

Why are we the "wrong people" - this is the TDM forum, or am I missing something? What do you want them to do, do you want them to bugger off and shut up already, just because you are tired to read that people don't like this and that? That's not their problem, if you don't like it, don't frickin' read it, as Alex said - and no you don't have to answer it, just like a musician isn't forced to answer fan critic, as in your comparison. There are a shitload of positive "thank you" threads around here, don't you see them at all?

 

It's a public forum, nobody is directing his critic to you personally or the team in general, there are plenty of other people who read and discuss these things around here. If you have frustration cumulated on your chest, don't load it off here in the public forums, directed at a friendly forum member. Go open a thread in the private forums to write it off your chest, but please stop shooting the messengers here.

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That's weird that you demand he not speak in a public forum while defending the right of those he is speaking to to speak their minds...

I'm not demanding anything, I'm saying that letting off personal frustration on actual fans of the game is not very helpful for public relations.

 

Almost everything in this thread is bound to go wrong somehow, so I'll better leave it.

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If you have frustration cumulated on your chest, don't load it off here in the public forums, directed at a friendly forum member. Go open a thread in the private forums to write it off your chest, but please stop shooting the messengers here.

 

You most definitely are directing him to take his response to a public discussion and hide it in some private corner.

 

It's ridiculous because you seem to understand that free and open discussion is a very valuable thing, going so far as to make a plea for the rights of others... only to, in the very same breath, order the person you are addressing to restrict his speech.

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