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Fiasco at Fauchard Street


Melan

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Hello, folks! Back to the mission; hopefully more luck today than on Tuesday. ;) Let me start with that garden...

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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@Melan: I love your diary style and also how you explain things you do, this is perfect for other mappers!

 

About the AI freezing the game, did you report this on the tracker? That sounds like a serious bug we should fix. Freezes or crashes are never good to have in the code.

 

Edit: And your source, just wow! http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?div=t17160517-32 There are so many gems in this one, it would take weeks to just browse it.

 

2nd Edit: However, from the old bailey online you can also see how fucked up the current copyright is. They say:

 

Commercial exploitation of original page images from the Proceedings from 1674 to October 1834, Ordinary's Accounts, and other images on the historical background pages is prohibited without licence from the Library or Record Office which holds the original work, as explained below. For the Proceedings from November 1834 to 1913 the relevant copyright owner is the Old Bailey Proceedings Online Project. Map images found on this site are reproduced under licence from Motco Enterprises Limited. Commercial use of these images and text is prohibited without the permission of Motco Enterprises Limited.

 

Commercial exploitation of the transcribed text and the design and content of the webpages, including use by television programme makers and examination boards, is prohibited without licence from the Open University, University of Hertfordshire and University of Sheffield

 

So apparently court proceedings (aka public affairs) from 16xx are still copyrighted and cannot be used by everyone freely...

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Tels: as noted, the freeze was actually the AI getting stuck on badly laid out terrain -- so probably not a bug per se. I am still scratching my head over the changed light textures, but as long as it don't repeat in someone else's mission, it may not be worth reporting either.

 

The copyright claim is bizarre, but most likely unenforcable. I am not a lawyer and don't know much about British law, but it would probably not stand up if it was brought before court (even the Old Bailey).

 

post-2023-130272079341_thumb.jpg

Progress: the garden, plus surrounding buildings, including the back wall of Lendermann's house. This looks like a fancier scene, but like so many things in this mission, it isn't. There is a roughly cylindrical (8-sided prism) brush with retextured prefab awnings stuck on the top and the sides, and walls cut up with trim, with the additions of windows, windowframes and awnings, plus a few things scattered around the garden. The trickiest bit is actually the big bush/overgrowth-like thing: a treetop made non-solid and sunk into the ground.

 

Time to take a break, iron some clothes etc. When I get back, there will still be ample time to finish an office complex -- getting ever closer to finishing the mission architecture.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Commercial exploitation of original page images from the Proceedings from 1674 to October 1834, Ordinary's Accounts, and other images on the historical background pages is prohibited without licence from the Library or Record Office which holds the original work, as explained below. For the Proceedings from November 1834 to 1913 the relevant copyright owner is the Old Bailey Proceedings Online Project. Map images found on this site are reproduced under licence from Motco Enterprises Limited. Commercial use of these images and text is prohibited without the permission of Motco Enterprises Limited.

 

Commercial exploitation of the transcribed text and the design and content of the webpages, including use by television programme makers and examination boards, is prohibited without licence from the Open University, University of Hertfordshire and University of Sheffield

 

 

 

:angry: You'd better not sell this FM Melan! :angry:

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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Tels: as noted, the freeze was actually the AI getting stuck on badly laid out terrain -- so probably not a bug per se. I am still scratching my head over the changed light textures, but as long as it don't repeat in someone else's mission, it may not be worth reporting either.

 

Well, still, the AI code should not simply freeze the game just because something is not right, it should degrade graceful, and throw some sort of warning. Such freeze usually hint at deeper bugs that will sometimes later be triggered even when everything is different. And if you got a clear way of reproducing the obscure bug, than that is worth a lot!

 

The copyright claim is bizarre, but most likely unenforcable. I am not a lawyer and don't know much about British law, but it would probably not stand up if it was brought before court (even the Old Bailey).

 

Lol, you are probably right :)

 

Btw, does anybody know what the word "Pat" (As in "he was hit in the right pat") means? I couldn't find it in a dictionary.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Well, still, the AI code should not simply freeze the game just because something is not right, it should degrade graceful, and throw some sort of warning.

 

Absolutely.

 

Probably stuck in an endless loop somewhere in the pathfinding code, since changing some brushes fixed it.

 

Melan, did you keep a copy of the bad version? I could look at that.

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Tels, grayman: Very well, I will upload a copy for you.

 

Also, back to work. B)

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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post-2023-130273108138_thumb.jpg

Looks like the office will stretch into the next editing session - getting close to midnight now, and too sleepy to go on. This isn't going to be anything complicated, though - we've already got a few desks and stools for draftsmen, the more fancy desk of the overseer with a hourglass, storage cabinets and even a door leading to the bosses room (which will probably not be accessible). Some more objects here and there, maybe a decorative item or two, and the room is completed.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Evening! Let's see about that office complex. :)

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Progress report before a hour-long break: finished with the office complex (a relatively simple place spruced up with readables) and two extra small locations that were easy to build but will offer extra exploration opportunities. Also, here are the beginnings of Lendermann's house, roughly occupying the rectangular area in the centre of the image:

post-2023-130280711392_thumb.jpg

I am still contemplating the pillars with the statues -- they will probably go, as they are too grandiose, too rich. The owner of this place, although a rich man, keeps his wealth to himself - so the exterior needs to be more sparse, less obviously prosperous.

 

The stairs were trimmed down with the clipper - a bit more complex than a simple setup, but still very easy to do. Of course, there remains a lot to do here; this will be the last single interior area of the level, and that is always an effort - even if I intend to stick to easier building techniques.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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post-2023-130281862918_thumb.jpg

And the entrance was indeed revised. I completed a bunch of minor things that aren't particularly notable by themselves, with one exception, placing func_portals to cut down on unnecessary rendering by closing portals based on distance. This didn't produce a radical speed increase, but it added about 4 to 10 FPS based on the area in question, which, when it goes from 14-15 to 18-20, is not that bad. There are a few places where a lot of VPs are open, and one portal doesn't even work yet (it will be tricky to fix it even if it can be fixed).

 

I also started adding some ambient sounds, but I will discuss that next time (or maybe on the weekend) since right now all I've got is some preliminary places.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Don't know yet; location separators are neat with the crossfading, but I'd like to wrap up the map on the weekend and start beta so learning a new subsystem of DR may not be feasible (and I'm not looking for help with it since this thread is partly meant to prove a point - so if I can do something with a simple approach, I will go with that). It depends on how much time I have left.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Don't know yet; location separators are neat with the crossfading, but I'd like to wrap up the map on the weekend and start beta so learning a new subsystem of DR may not be feasible (and I'm not looking for help with it since this thread is partly meant to prove a point - so if I can do something with a simple approach, I will go with that). It depends on how much time I have left.

 

If you are skipping the "info_location_separator"/info location system, you are creating actually more work for you, and also miss out on an important part of TDM!

 

Location zones not only can give you varied ambient (with fading) on locations, but they also provide handy points for script execution (player leaves/enter zone X => call a script, no matter HOW or WHERE the player entered the zone), it also makes it possible to have names for locations (I think currently the player cannot access this info, but later it might be possible that f.i. a map shows "you are in: kitchen"), plus the best thing is, it allows you varied ambient light levels for each zone!

 

Give it a cool blue for outside, a sickly green for the sewers, and a warm glow for the kitchen, f.i. and neutral grey for the zones in between. That is an effect that is hard to emulate otherwise, except if you place many ambient lights (which is the "more work for you" part :)

 

Edit: There are are more important things that zones can provide (and which might automatically make your mission better later: setting temp. (automatic breath puffs depending on temp.), EAX settings etc. Some of these do not yet work, but if you create the zones now, it becomes much eaiser to update your mission later with these things. So IMO a map that doesn't use zones isn't complete :)

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"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Tels +1.

 

I never even considered the possiblity that some of our mapping heroes are NOT using info_location sound system.

Wow..

 

It is really easy, elegant and nice method. It takes 10min to learn and afterwards you are probably not interested in the other methods. At least I've not found any kinds of problems with the method, only good sides.

 

Is it true that if you make ambient musics with ordinary speakers, the tdm menu ambient volume slider does not change the volume? This works for info_location sounds.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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If you are skipping the "info_location_separator"/info location system, you are creating actually more work for you, and also miss out on an important part of TDM!

The reason why Melan and others don't use info_location is that the sound from one zone dosent overlap with the next zone (at least it didn't in 1.04, I will have to check 1.05). the only way to achieve this is to have overlapping speakers, so as you open a door from one zone, so to go outside you can hear both the inside and outside ambient's at the same time. Melan's method provides continuous sound, where as as of 1.04 there was always a small gap of silence between one sound fading out and the second fading in.

 

Now if we have proper cross-fading in 1.05 w/infoi_location then this will remove the need to have ambient speakers all over the place. So on that subject I am going to make a test map right now to test this out in 1.05...brb

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There are work arounds.

 

For instance, not every location HAS to have a sound tied to it. So you can have a few zones outside that fade in/out. Then you have a regular speaker in the first doorway going into a building and that sound should overlap...

 

They can also be masked by having a loud machine or something in the fade/in out area.

 

And sometimes having a bit of silence is a good way to make the ambient more striking imo.

 

Like have ambient in the streets, but fade out one portal before the main objective building so everything gets quiet. Then wehn you enter the objective building the tense ambient comes in and makes it feel creepier .

 

Also, not every portal has to define a new zone. a zone can cross 4 portals if you don't seperate them with info_locations. So a street can have 20 portals but still be just one zone.

Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

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Evening! Some bad news, folks: I have come home with work to finish, so tonight's time will be put to a much less glamorous use than editing. :(

 

See you tomorrow morning.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Good morning! Yesterday evening was lost to RL work (on a break, I read up on the zone aproach to ambients, and they don't sound all that hard - so I will take a stab at it), but the weekend is fortunately free - and I intend to finish the project unless another notable bug comes up. The first area I am going to work on will be the Groasse & Swill factory; that will mean another section completed.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Noon report: the main room from the factory is ready; the other one, and the connecting passage will be small, so that's not much.

 

post-2023-130295255792_thumb.jpg

The machinery consists of a retextured liquid tank prefab wupplemented with a few pipes; cube brushes textured with machinery (this is from my newest pack, and will be included with the mission), metal crates that are just brushes, and combinations of objects and brushes to create a crowded and run-down mechanical environment. There are differences of opinion about the technological level TDM machinery should follow. I prefer the slightly more advanced look that was also found in Thief 1, which is reflected here; others are proponents of a cohesive early 19th c. style. In any case, an industrial scene tends to be less easy to create than a street or even a living room: there are fewer assets and textures that are perfect for the job than other areas of TDM.

 

post-2023-130295298364_thumb.jpg

A little touch by the wall: vent shaft with fan. This used a more advanced building technique than the baseline for the mission - a bevel patch turned into a cap, cloned and rotated. Still, this work only had to be done once, was fairly easy, and I can now use it throughout the factory - and maybe I will put one or two elsewehere in the level as well.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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