What you think about ingame readables

[etdarkb]

I usually like reading books if they are short and to the point.

[Lusher]

"Oh, no! A book. Now I must see the trouble skimming it through for clues the mapper placed there.."

^

After far too many FM, this is my reaction.

 

And any random note is enough to destroy any atmosphere built by the map until that point.

"Mmh, what I was doing before reading this poem of the fan mission's author about a guard's boots? Oh, right, I need to evade the dangerous zombies patrolling the nearby hall."

 

Clues: can't you use different kind of clues for the different levels of difficulty? This way you can just give them away on normal and hide them in a encyclopedia on expert.

[Fidcal]

This is why I keep saying "Player Notes" over and over. I think people have some strange concept of what they think they are. At minimum anyone who hates readables need only open a book, glance at it, and close it. If a player note doesn't appear in the inventory immediately then drop the book - there's no essential clue in it. Then if you want it easy just go straight to page 3 of the note which probably says "Reckon I need to get the blue key hanging on the wall near the door in the study. It must open the back gate." Easy peasy and short.

 

For other players there are other options. They can totally disable the notes. Or they need only refer to them when stuck. Or they can just read the hint on page 1.

 

I'm even working on a way to put them in a single folder so they don't clutter the inventory. Maybe I can make an option so they go straight to the folder so they don't even alert the player to a clue at all but are there if they need them.

 

The alternative is to quit the game and ask on the forums then wait for someone to paste the player note.

 

Did I mention they are free and optional?

[STiFU]

I think it's a good concept, but I for one love extracting information from readables, so I would definitely disable it. I'd sometimes just like to know, whether it's worth reading a long text or not. Maybe you could also implement a subtle hintsystem. Like a different pickup sound is played when you pick up a readable with clues in it. Maybe even a simple "interesting" voice-over.

[MoroseTroll]

Voted for the fourth.

[Partol]

I love Builder Scriptures. Would like to see more pagan writings in missions. I voted for 4.

 

My favourite FM's include a well-written introduction/story/plot/dialogue. I enjoy both mission related and mission unrelated readables. Readables are a good way to compensate for a lack of eavesdropping .... which was very enjoyable in Thief 1/2/3. How about a FM which requires obtaining information as the main objective? sounds fun to me.

 

Though, there is a problem if TDM players do not speak English fluently, especially Victorian era English. Personally, I enjoy the challenge of trying to understand words which are not in my vocabulary. Non-fluent English speakers may appreciate some highlighting or any way to focus on important text and ignore superfluous text. But please do include superfluous text for people who enjoy it.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Partol

[Fidcal]

Maybe you could also implement a subtle hintsystem.

 

<sob> I thought a note going in the inventory was a subtle hint. Just don't read it. Maybe players think it would be too difficult to resist so they prefer to exit and ask on the forums.

 

However, your idea of a different pick up sound is very easy to do if anyone wants that. But I don't think it's so story-based as the player character writing a note after he has read the readable.

[ungoliant]

Maybe players think it would be too difficult to resist so they prefer to exit and ask on the forums.

 

truth (for at least 1 player). I do not like player notes being used for game hints at all on any difficulty.

[Baddcog]

I think notes is fine as a toggled option, but I'd rather play without them.

[Sotha]

[notes] I'd rather play without them.

 

Same here. We could have a toggle for big red arrows pointing towards objectives, too.

[DeTeEff]

The more I read in these threads, the more I suspect that my upcoming mission will be disliked...

[demagogue]

Rule of thumb: If you really like your own FM (and you're being honest with yourself), then there's going to be people out there that will like it for the same reasons you do. So I usually think you can't go wrong making it the way you'd most like it. Just be sure you actually play through it as a player and not just assume you yourself would like it.

[nbohr1more]

Yes, and any speculated "rule" that you can come up with that says "if you do this your mission = bad" can be violated and yet produce an enjoyable experience.

 

Thief itself was this kinda violation. Everyone was saying "nobody will enjoy all that sneaking around" yet here we are enjoying it.

[Mortem Desino]

I like to reward those who take the time to read.

 

Example:

 

"Oh my Frederick,"

"I'm so worried about your younger brother. Oft every night, he's been having night terrors."

"But in the morning, he claims to be fine. Yet I've spied him going out to the pond and climbing the trees. What if he falls? I think he is even secretly hiding things among the branches."

""

"I'm not able to climb trees anymore, but I'd give anything to find out what he's hiding. Maybe it would give me a clue about what's causing him to awake screaming in the middle of the night."

 

Investigate, and discover vials of holy water. Tada! Those who dare say "tl;dr" miss out on free equipment.

[ungoliant]

I'd be interested to learn how many people skipped or briefly skimmed through MD's example readable for X reason (and missed out on all that glorious holy water)

[Fidcal]

Yes, read it. Good double clue and clear and short.

[Sotha]

I'd be interested to learn how many people skipped or briefly skimmed through MD's example readable for X reason (and missed out on all that glorious holy water)

 

I found it maybe a bit too obvious. But that is a good starting point and a good example.

[DeTeEff]

Well, well, my mission should fit nicely in a readables contest as well as a seasons contest

 

In other words, you won't get the whole experience unless you read the readables...

[Sotha]

Well, well, my mission should fit nicely in a readables contest as well as a seasons contest

 

In other words, you won't get the whole experience unless you read the readables...

 

Well luckily, most of the community seem to enjoy readables. If someone is daft/silly enough to not read the briefing nor ingame readables, it is their own fault if the mission doesn't 'work' for them.

[fllood]

Since FMA's make their missions for the audience, it is good to know what people want and expect.

I don't agree here Sotha, FMA's best should make mission just the style they like themself.

 

Rule of thumb: If you really like your own FM (and you're being honest with yourself), then there's going to be people out there that will like it for the same reasons you do. So I usually think you can't go wrong making it the way you'd most like it. Just be sure you actually play through it as a player and not just assume you yourself would like it.

Yeah that's my oppinion as well.

 

So it's really great TDM having many authors which have various preferences and liking how they do things in their maps (same is true beyond readables).

 

Personally I like readables that add to the gameplay, have infos to reach an objective or secrets - thus have some information of importance. And texts that add and deepens the story, setting, lore of the TDM universe or characterize people and their attidues so I can connect, sympathise or hate (both good) people or fractions. Also a library without any books to frob or just the one with the important clue might be worse than a library with a couple of general flavour tetxts added ... I usually don't read Builders sermons, however a builders place without some sermons texts to see feels wrong.

Edited June 9, 2011 by fllood

[pusianka]

I like this thread so why not revive it! - Anyone ever thought of getting the character's voice to read the readable for you? ye I guess it is a lot of trouble but well... it would be like garreths voice(in thief DS) telling after and before every mission what he should do next. Aside from that, I was thinking how hard it is to make such moment a memorable one. Example:

 

You finally get to open the door behind which is what you are looking for. When you click to open the door a simple cutscene starts, where the view is placed inside of the room you are opening, the light slowly floats in as you open the creaking doors. You notice the book you have to steal(as the camera points to it).

[Sotha]

Well I used cutscenes a lot in transaction. I'm not gonna do that again. The problem: too much moving parts!

 

What if the player is chased by AI? In the cutscene the AI disappear and the cutscene plays, then drops the player amids of angry AI. Nope, the entire thing should be designed so that there is no chance that the player is harrassed to the area. And if that is done, the area is 'safe' and deadly boring. It might work in some abandoned trap filled temple, though, where the mapper can isolate the scene into 100% probability.

 

As for player voice reading all the readables... That would require a high-quality voice actor willing to help for free to be at standby at all times. At present I am struggling to get voice actors to help me with a simple set of lines. So no, not gonna work. Also reciting the lines (and interacting with the actor to get it match the original intention in feeling and intonation) is not all. There is a lot of extra work: remove stereo channel, normalize audio, perform noise removal, cut the audio, export .ogg (with correct bitrate), write sound shaders and testing. All this instead just writing the text into readables.

[pusianka]

Ok voice actor too much, thought so as well... But these cutscenes should work fine... Come on, every game uses these and they really make things interesting. Its just a matter of figuring out where and when to place them. As for the AI, I guess we don't usually try to push mission forward by making all the guards run around the place and well sometimes, there really not so many AIs on the map to really bother...

[Tels]

As for player voice reading all the readables... That would require a high-quality voice actor willing to help for free to be at standby at all times. At present I am struggling to get voice actors to help me with a simple set of lines. So no, not gonna work. Also reciting the lines (and interacting with the actor to get it match the original intention in feeling and intonation) is not all. There is a lot of extra work: remove stereo channel, normalize audio, perform noise removal, cut the audio, export .ogg (with correct bitrate), write sound shaders and testing. All this instead just writing the text into readables.

 

Also, audio is a lot harder to translate than simple text.

[Xarg]

Perhaps we could just have some simple, generic noises, maybe 3-4 different people (for variety) just doing a kind of curiosity-vaguely-piqued "Hmmm....", "Hmm?" or even "Ahhh" when something important comes up, say, page 6 of a readable, so the person at the computer is given a hint that the character in the game has read something interesting, but it isn't a spam mwheel down then check player note level of unattachment to the material? If I keep cycling pages with say, a .5 or 1 second gap between cycles, and page 4 (and 5 if an open book) gives me a "Hmmm..." I know there's something important, but I still have to do some manual reading. It seems like a nice compromise between forcing people to read the entire book (no hint) and just giving a summary player note (hint pushed in your face).. thoughts?