Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums
Sign in to follow this  
Midnight

Newcomer Impressions of TDM missions

Recommended Posts

Yes they do look like Thief 2 indeed. But what's the problem? In my eyes this is the extraordinary awesomeness. I believe 99,9% of the Dark Mod players play this mod because it's kinda similiar to the old Thief games and not because they wanna play hide & seek in the Doom 3 Engine :laugh:

  • Like 1

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First TDM isn't enough like T2, now it's too much like T2.

 

To be fair, his comment is that the screenshot (and I have no idea which one he's talking about) looks like T2, which wouldn't be a compliment for TDM. The fact is that there are plenty of missions that don't exactly show off TDM's strengths. This is inevitable, as missions fall along a bell curve, but once you get up to fifty missions or so, it's easy for someone to randomly try three or four that all fall into the low end of the curve. At that point they might just decide TDM isn't for them.

 

That's why I think having some kind of rating system, even if it's just a yearly posting of "fan favourites" would be a good idea to help newcomers decide which missions they should use to judge whether they'll like the mod.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why I think having some kind of rating system, even if it's just a yearly posting of "fan favourites" would be a good idea to help newcomers decide which missions they should use to judge whether they'll like the mod.

 

Yeah - I love that idea - but - we've already had a bit of arguing about how people vote and things - and there are certain people who vote 2/2/2 on even Sotha's missions just because they can. I think that for the most loved missions - perhaps in the downloader - why not put a star by them to suggest which ones a critical eye should try first to get a positive experience.


"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah - I love that idea - but - we've already had a bit of arguing about how people vote and things - and there are certain people who vote 2/2/2 on even Sotha's missions just because they can.

 

It doesn't have to be a numerical vote, though. People could just list their three favourite missions released that year (or of all time), and someone could tally up the number of times each mission is mentioned and post the top three (or five, or whatever). That could then be posted on the website, on download pages, or possibly even in the download menu, so players have a better chance of picking good missions for their first experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It doesn't have to be a numerical vote, though. People could just list their three favourite missions released that year

 

But wouldn't this be too restrictive? I mean a counter on each mission which says how many times it was downloaded and a 5 star voting system for each one would give every download count in. Sure there might be two or three dorks who always vote 1/5 stars, but the mass of downloads and votes will surely compensate thos two fools.

 

A favourite voting with lets say three given choises will only be used by some members of the forum who have many missions played. I don't believe that everyone who downloaded and played some FMs will join the forum and vote three of his favourite missions at years end.

 

Oh that sounds kinda rude - it isn't meant to be rude. Sorry Springheel, I hope you understand. ^^ It's just not a good idea in my eyes :( A standard voting system for everyone on the download page (and if possible somehow in the mission downloader ingame) would be the better deal I guess.

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Expressing a valid opinion isn't rude in my eyes. ^_^

 

I mean a counter on each mission which says how many times it was downloaded and a 5 star voting system for each one would give every download count in

 

 

You may be right that this would be better, but that option requires a lot of coding work, I would suspect. If it ever happens, it won't be anytime soon. In the meantime, a simple "list your favourites" thread could be done with minimal effort by just about anyone.

 

 

A favourite voting with lets say three given choises will only be used by some members of the forum who have many missions played. I don't believe that everyone who downloaded and played some FMs will join the forum and vote three of his favourite missions at years end.

 

No, I wouldn't expect that either. But this isn't supposed to be a scientific poll, just a guide for newcomers to TDM. I think there are enough forum members to provide a representative sample.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd vote against any stars or rankings on the Download page. That's for downloading missions, not for posting popularity results. If you have to star certain missions, star the Training Mission, St. Lucia, and Thief's Den. I believe those were the originals, and are great examples of what TDM offers.

 

One person's "I hated it" mission is another person's "I loved it" mission. I'd hate to see perfectly good missions overlooked due to an arbitrary and easily gamed rating system. Save ratings for the contests, where they belong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh thats nice :)

 

Hm I don't have much knowledge but wouldn't this be easy with jquery?

 

http://www.fyneworks.com/jquery/star-rating/#tab-Testing

 

http://bloggingsquared.com/jquery/flipcounter/


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Greyman

 

Yes - you're right of course - but even in that instance - I really hate Thief's Den as a starter mission. It was my first exposure to the Dark Mod when the ancient Alpha or what have you was released ages ago and I found myself confused by such a tiny opening area - gave up and didn't look up TDM again until I had this new PC this year. =-X


"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I believe an "Editor's Picks" style method, decided by leading people in the mod team, would work best, if it is to be done at all. Select a handful of missions and identify them with a gold star or something, no further differentiation needed. It is subjective, but it will reflect the judgement of posters who have put a lot of work into the mod and have a stronger interest in its long-term success.


Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Glyph, Well I think Thief's Den needs to be recognized for what it is. The first released FM (correct?) and a tutorial 'first map' mission.

It certainly doesn't live up to current fm's, but it's got it's place in history.

 

@Melan,

That might be alright, but it would need to be by people who play every map FULLY. I've had people here say that they won't even try my map because they don't have time, supposedly because not one of the 'better' ones. I've also had people say that they just don't want to finish it. And those are not the people that should be rating maps. Pretty soon only the top rated maps would even be rated.

 

I'm speaking on an 'editor's picks' rating of course. General thread votes only come from people who play the missions I assume.


Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly it sounds like he was saying it to be a jerk, lol.

 

But it that such a bad thing? People still like how T2 looks. The other 7 posters didn't seem to mind.

 

He could have said 'It looks like Doom3'


Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think it's not similar enough.

 

The only mission that gave me a "life of the party" wide open areas was the alchemist... and it was quite spare because of that (and going into the roof - a plus - broke the illusion pretty hard).

 

I think the engine needs someway to support open large areas without the room subdivision method it uses now before we start to see the glory days.

 

maybe lod model substitution would help...

Edited by i30817

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually think it's not similar enough.

 

The only mission that gave me a "life of the party" wide open areas was the alchemist... and it was quite spare because of that (and going into the roof - a plus - broke the illusion pretty hard).

 

I think the engine needs someway to support open large areas without the room subdivision method it uses now before we start to see the glory days.

 

maybe lod model substitution would help...

 

Well, I just made a tut this weekend that is being formatted on the wiki now that shows how to fix those issues. The alchemist was still a pretty early FM and authors are always learning more and getting better. Hopefully my tut will shine a light on tricks that some authors didn't know and can be put to good use.

 

I doubt though that the requirement for vis-portals will ever change. That would take some major work to the rendered, sound propogation system, etc..

 

Still, anything that could be done in T2 can be done in TDM, it just takes a little more planning as the author has to manually optimize, whereas Drom did that automatically. (Still, Dromed could only have 1024 tris in view and TDM can have 10's of thousands.)


Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Glyph, Well I think Thief's Den needs to be recognized for what it is. The first released FM (correct?) and a tutorial 'first map' mission.

It certainly doesn't live up to current fm's, but it's got it's place in history.

 

Sorry - I'm not hating - it's certainly an accomplishment and not a bad mission - it's just I would pick St Lucia or The Outpost way higher up on the newbie missions list.


"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I believe The Dark Mod (an awesome mod by the way) is currently missing are TRAPS. At least, I have not encountered anything memorable, as the traps in The Bonehoard, The First City Bank, etc. from the Thief series, in the Dark Mod missions I have played. Everything else (graphics, AI, even iinteractions with objects) is quite superior.


The best webcomic ever: http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/index2.php

A friend of mine's project (steampunk web browser rpg): http://www.indiegogo.com/project-e

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I believe The Dark Mod (an awesome mod by the way) is currently missing are TRAPS. At least, I have not encountered anything memorable, as the traps in The Bonehoard, The First City Bank, etc. from the Thief series, in the Dark Mod missions I have played. Everything else (graphics, AI, even iinteractions with objects) is quite superior.

 

Man - that is true! I love the terrifying triggered sounds you get - like in the bonehoard when a giant demonic face warns you "Stay away from my eyes, thief." Or in Thief Gold in the Mage's Guild - when you're stealing from a shrine / statue - and each statue berates you and warns of your doom.


"No proposition Euclid wrote,

No formulae the text-books know,

Will turn the bullet from your coat,

Or ward the tulwar's downward blow

Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—

The odds are on the cheaper man."

 

From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Traps can be done, it's just up to the authors. I know Sotha's Gelham Tower mission had a trap near the start

 

when climbing part of a ledge collapses on you

 

 

I did a little bit of that in The Rift too, but not so much as a way to damage the player but an earthquake effect.

 

I think one problem with TDM is many people have a hard time distinguishing between the mod, the engine and the Fan Missions. Just because it hasn't been done or because it's not super fancy doesn't mean it can't be done.


Dark is the sway that mows like a harvest

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have found traps very difficult to do in TDM. I managed to hack one together in aStS, but even still it doesn't work as well as it should. Damage entities just aren't flexible enough atm.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whoops, I've just come back to find I'd started a topic by mistake. My original post was supposed to be a reply to the Crucible of Omens announcement thread. :blush:

 

I like the idea of an editor's picks FM collection, but not to be seen as some kind of sign of quality or anything like that, rather a handful of FMs chosen purely on size and difficulty to ease new players into the mod after completing the training mission.

 

On the topic of traps, those were mainly found in some of the 'adventure game' levels of the original Thief which many thought didn't play to the strengths of the sneak 'em up genre. I'm not one of those that disliked the odd adventure level, I love how they gave the original games variety and inspired many similar fan missions, hopefully we'll see more of this in TDM in the future as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Making good looking TDM images has always been a challenge. We are dealing with a game with very dark environments which are often cramped and require the player to look at things in multiple angles to capture all the detail. The smaller details also do not show up in an image. To translate all that to an image is very difficult. When they play the missions they will switch their tune.

 

In any case, no worries, everyone's a critic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Traps were pretty hard to rig up in Dromed as well. It took me a lot of time even to set up decent emitters, and never had the patience for a proper pressure plate trap. I am proud of the stuff I have in Bad Debts and Disorientation, though; simple solutions, but some scary, scary moments.


Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I recently told a friend about your Thief maps, in that when I replayed them I found locations that I completely missed the first time around and was only able to get there with judicious use of crate stacking....

 

 

:-P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To translate all that to an image is very difficult. When they play the missions they will switch their tune.

 

 

There's some truth to that, but there is still a big difference between an image of one of Biker's maps and an image from say, the starting area of Sons of Baltona, or the Illusionist's Tower. I don't know that playing them would change the perception much.

A newcomer who happened to start with Winter's Harvest, Lord Dufford's and Reap as you Sow, for example, is definitely not going to come away thinking TDM looks fantastic, and might give up entirely.

 

That's the reason I initially suggested having some kind of "top favourites" list, though I'm not sensing a lot of enthusiasm for the idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...