Newcomer Impressions of TDM missions

[Melan]

Springheel: I am personally for the idea. No special privilege implied, just a recommendation to steer newbies to a few showcase missions; then let them discover the rest.

[Sotha]

That's the reason I initially suggested having some kind of "top favourites" list, though I'm not sensing a lot of enthusiasm for the idea.

 

For the record, I think such a list should certainly be built. The value for TDM newcomers would be invaluable. What would be the better way for the community to serve the community, than preparing a community ranking list for the newcomers to easily find the best missions to start with? PR value for TDM is obvious, since people would not start with the crappy missions.

 

The thing that it boils down to is how to implement it. It would be nice if it could be done simply with the community forum board poll, but I think the board poll is too limited for this. If there were no limitations, we would have all the missions in the list and everyone gets to vote their top 5-10 missions. Then compile this information into a ranking list. And maybe publish top 20 TDM missions?

[Springheel]

The thing that it boils down to is how to implement it.

 

It doesn't have to be complicated.

 

1. Create a new thread and ask people to post their top 3 (or 2 or 4, or whatever seems fair) favourite TDM missions.

2. Leave it open for a week or two.

3. Tabulate the number of times each mission is mentioned (this is the only time-consuming part).

4. List the missions that are mentioned the most. (I'd probably only list the top 5...maybe the top 10 at the most).

[ungoliant]

1. Create a new thread and ask people to post their top 3 (or 2 or 4, or whatever seems fair) favourite TDM missions.

2. Leave it open for a week or two.

3. Tabulate the number of times each mission is mentioned (this is the only time-consuming part).

4. List the missions that are mentioned the most. (I'd probably only list the top 5...maybe the top 10 at the most).

 

If this is to be a system to rate all missions, then this won't work. For the sake of argument, lets say.... HoLS is the worst mission in the current stock of FM's (obviously not true). If nobody votes for the FM, then with this system it would end up with a rating of 0, when it might deserve, say, 2 stars out of 5 or something. This is not even including the fact that not everyone in the core community has played all the missions (off the top of my head, Tels, for example has admitted to not playing all the FM's).

 

I think a better way would be to implement some sort of rating bar for FMs in the New Mission menu (which can only be activated for each FM after it has been checked off as completed). The rating can be stored for each mission in the missions.tdminfo file along with the rest of the FM completion info. Then, an "upload ratings" button could be clicked, ratings transmitted somewhere, and logged based on ip address so that votes can't be duplicated.

 

Ok, that would probably take a lot of work, but I like the idea.

[Springheel]

If this is to be a system to rate all missions, then this won't work

 

It's not a system to rate all missions. It's

 

some kind of "top favourites" list

[nbohr1more]

It makes sense to me. Hell, even Darkfate has such a list for TDM...

 

The elephant in the room... Who are the editors? Perhaps we can get some objective reviewers to review the top 15 from an informal vote?

[Sotha]

It doesn't have to be complicated.

 

1. Create a new thread and ask people to post their top 3 (or 2 or 4, or whatever seems fair) favourite TDM missions.

2. Leave it open for a week or two.

3. Tabulate the number of times each mission is mentioned (this is the only time-consuming part).

4. List the missions that are mentioned the most. (I'd probably only list the top 5...maybe the top 10 at the most).

 

Sounds good to me... But would it be more fun to have larger top list from the users? Maybe top 5? That way slightly larger variety would be incorporated.

 

You seem to have everything figured out. What prevents from finding the volunteer tabulating the results and starting the vote thread? A word of caution though: I fear the voting thread might be high-value target for ego-maniac-attention-whoring-trolling activity... All non-"my top x missions" posts should probably be removed for clarity and to make the tabulating easier?

[Springheel]

It makes sense to me. Hell, even Darkfate has such a list for TDM...

 

Really? Is there a link somewhere?

 

The elephant in the room... Who are the editors? Perhaps we can get some objective reviewers to review the top 15 from an informal vote?

 

I don't know what you mean. All the posts are public, so anyone can do the math.

 

What prevents from finding the volunteer tabulating the results and starting the vote thread?

 

Nothing that I'm aware of.

[Maethius]

I always found the TTC hammer method helpful, but people play for different reasons. Some don't like the larger, vague exploration missions, and others love 'em. Some like undead missions, others hate 'em. Might help to have a system similar to the polls, but how it would translate would require an admin to update it. I'm not sure how the hammer score system was updated over time... or it if was.

[Baddcog]

TTLG also has a list of mission by type.

 

Which is a good way to go imo.

 

Missions can be listed in eeach catagory they fit

 

undead

city

spiders...

[nbohr1more]

Really? Is there a link somewhere?

 

 

 

I don't know what you mean. All the posts are public, so anyone can do the math.

 

 

 

Nothing that I'm aware of.

 

1) Darkfate's Top 10 TDM Thread. I have to use google translate to read it:

 

http://darkfate.org/...hp?topic=2013.0

 

2 and 3) I mean that if we are considering using editors instead of a vote we would need to boil-down the number of missions candidates for these "editors" to review.

A vote would be the most practical method to boil-down the candidates.

(Unless, of course, we just consider forum regulars to be "editors"... then the voting would speak for itself)

Edited December 21, 2011 by nbohr1more

[i30817]

how about a tagcloud filtering system for the mission list? not visible immediately (and i frankly don't know how to make it look good), but something where you click "undead" and the ones that are so appear.

 

I don't know if you want to allow votes (you may).

[nbohr1more]

There's some truth to that, but there is still a big difference between an image of one of Biker's maps and an image from say, the starting area of Sons of Baltona, or the Illusionist's Tower. I don't know that playing them would change the perception much.

A newcomer who happened to start with Winter's Harvest, Lord Dufford's and Reap as you Sow, for example, is definitely not going to come away thinking TDM looks fantastic, and might give up entirely.

 

That's the reason I initially suggested having some kind of "top favourites" list, though I'm not sensing a lot of enthusiasm for the idea.

 

Going back to capturing missions images, I'd say Baltona looks pretty good when the right photographer is involved

 

 

 

 

 

Though the 3rd image down illustrates kinda what Jdude was trying to convey.

 

The screen-shot mechanism currently outputs very dark images, this is especially true of the native "F12" capture method when

using Post Processing. When you try to brighten these images you often loose either contrast or even color resolution (worst are

dark and fogged images). I took these using the tedious process of pressing the "Print Screen \ SysRq" key and exiting the game

for each one. Even in that case, to maintain the desired look I fudged the brightness and contrast by selectively brightening parts

of the scene so that (for example) the sky is still dark (instead of grey) while the scene is clear.

 

In game, this would be perhaps a little darker but motion and depth cues would help the player see and some amount of dynamic brightening

from the light sources would psychologically persist. The player will "remember" it brighter than it was because they will mentally merge multiple

frames together.

 

Maybe if I took multiple identical images at the same spot and merged them a more accurate result would happen but that would be even more tedious...

Edited December 21, 2011 by nbohr1more

[Baddcog]

That's some wicked fisheye you got going there though, it really distorts the image. You don't play looking at it like that do you?

 

And no offense to Jdude but I think that is exactly the TF2 look. (which doesn't ruin it at all for me)

 

But it is very square/blocky. We have the ability with this editor to fine tune everything, like the wood ceiling trim in the last shot could be a patch instead of a square brush and have just a little roundness to it, the garden path could be a patch with a slight hump and a smooth curve at the corner, etc... The backdrop of the city could be a lot more detailed, the windows could be sunk into the walls....

 

So I wouldn't say those shots make the Dark Mod look better than TF2, but certainly no worse. Then you add character shadows on top of that and it holds it's own with T2 no doubt.

 

(and if I ever get to releasing any more of my stuff I'm not saying I will put a lot more detail in...)

 

Johannes has probably shown the most beautiful detailed screens I have seen so far (Though Blackheart Manor has got some great stuff too), but that takes time, and he hasn't released even a small map yet.

 

People just have to be patient. TDM hasn't been released for that long, but still has quite a few maps already, and they are getting better all the time. If you look back at the classic T2 maps from the begining they are still the classics, but they don't hold up that well to the new ones.

[nbohr1more]

You don't play like that do you...

 

Nope.

 

I use alternate FOV to capture more of the scene, or to balance the visual elements out.

 

The bad thing is that wide-screen shots often have this effect applied unintended.

Edited December 21, 2011 by nbohr1more

[jdude]

That's the reason I initially suggested having some kind of "top favourites" list, though I'm not sensing a lot of enthusiasm for the idea.

 

I fully support this idea. How many maps should we favorite and should they be ranked in any specific order?

 

And no offense to Jdude but I think that is exactly the TF2 look. (which doesn't ruin it at all for me)

No offense at all. I'd be lying if I said the thief series didn't have an influence on me. My impression from the original post was that he meant the texture quality, poly count etc was reminiscent of T2.

[demagogue]

1) Darkfate's Top 10 TDM Thread. I have to use google translate to read it: http://darkfate.org/...hp?topic=2013.0

 

The prize of sympathies I also return The Of tears Of St. Lucia and, with a certain stretch, Patently Of Dangerous.

 

Well somebody likes my FM, with a certain stretch.

[Melan]

Re: Screenshots: This is a problem for Thief as well, but in the TTLG mission reviews megathread, SneakyJack's apparently found a way to bring out details without making everything look washed-out. I think he was using Photoshop or GIMP to correct images, which might be replicated somehow.

[Springheel]

Going back to capturing missions images, I'd say Baltona looks pretty good when the right photographer is involved

 

Well, we may have to agree to disagree. I find those shots terribly distorted...that walking AI in the first shot looks like his foot is three times the length of his head. And the scenes themselves don't impress me much either--remove the models and you're left with some (nicely textured) square boxes.

 

I should be clear that my point isn't to denigrate those maps...I actually don't think visual spendour is as important as gameplay, and I did have fun in Baltona. But they're not necessarily the maps that we want to use to showcase the mod to newcomers.

[Bikerdude]

I fully support this idea. How many maps should we favorite and should they be ranked in any specific order?

In fact could we not merge this into TDM in the next release - it would be similar to the voting function in garrettloader.

[Baddcog]

 

My impression from the original post was that he meant the texture quality, poly count etc was reminiscent of T2.

 

And to a degree he is right. Obviously all the ai in TDM are much higher poly and have normal maps, etc.. Some of the objects aren't very high, and it is something we can improve (making higher poly models and using more LOD action) but that takes time.

This is mainly because

1:Thief 2 custom content has pushed the looks of T2 up a lot. So we're not 'competing' with T2, we're competing with T2 and years of upgrades. And a lot of our models were made early on when the team wasn't trying to push the envelop on details, but instead have a decent looking game that ran well. (in fact a few of my later models for T2 are now in TDM, with TDM tex applied, so still same object + normal maps- still an upgrade)

 

 

2: The normal maps on textures don't always look better than a well shadowed diffuse texture in a single shot. When it shines is when lights and player are moving and you can see all the tiny details up close. Everything tends to look flat in 2d. But same thing, now T2 has got some really awesome textures and admittedly some of ours are lacking a bit. But after years of new stuff being added it can only get better.

[Glyph Seeker]

I should be clear that my point isn't to denigrate those maps...I actually don't think visual spendour is as important as gameplay, and I did have fun in Baltona. But they're not necessarily the maps that we want to use to showcase the mod to newcomers.

 

I would agree - Baltona is not a bad map - but is far too much a key hunt for my tastes to be a starter map.