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ECHELON

Conversion of ALL fan missions to i18n system (important)

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I think the attention to non-english speaking players is commendable and I certainly understand the value of having the missions and game available in other languages, but speaking for myself, the problem is mostly about artistic vision, yes, in the sense that I would have strong feelings about people playing the mission and experiencing the story exactly as how I intended, and not in any other way - what if by accident a translation makes a mockery out of your pivotal storyline moment? The point for me is simple, there should be a good relation between mission makers and translators, to make sure the work is accurate and the essence of the story comes accross perfectly. It would help immensely that the person that is going to translate actually played the mission and enjoyed it, as you can get rather silly mistakes and misinterpretations when you translate something literally, but out of context (which was my main problem translatiing the GUI - I didnt know where the strings were located in-game, so there are several out of context words in there right now, which I hope to sit down and correct before the 1.08 release). If you like the source material and are willing to put the work in order to honour the effort involved in creating the mission, that's all there is to it for me.

Edited by RPGista

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I think the attention to non-english speaking players is commendable and I certainly understand the value of having the missions and game available in other languages, but speaking for myself, the problem is mostly about artistic vision, yes, in the sense that I would have strong feelings about people playing the mission and experiencing the story exactly as how I intended, and not in any other way - what if by accident a translation makes a mockery out of your pivotal storyline moment?

 

While this is understandable, this is the author's POV. He wants control. From the user's point of view, for most people an operating manual in Chinese, a Novel in Norsk and an FM in English have the same qualities as a common brick - not very usuable unless you use it for stopping a door.

 

For these people, a translation is essential, and even if garbled or bad, better than nothing. While you as author might not "get" that desire, and even desire that these people do not "use" your work at all (instead of "using it in an suboptimal, or different way you imagine"), the users of your work will simply overrule you, anyway.

 

Having said that, this issue (quality of translation) is completely different from the issue at hand, namely prparing FMs so that they can be translated.

 

For now, all I have heard against this preparation are irrational fears ("it might break"), or "control" issues ("I don't want people to play my mission unless they play it the way I decided").

 

The funny thing is, all FMs use the I18N system under he hood since v1.07 and are automatically modified upon loading the FM - it is just intransparent to the authors who fight against it because they always use English and so never saw that their mission is already partially translated when they play f.i. in Italian...

 

(which was my main problem translatiing the GUI - I didnt know where the strings were located in-game, so there are several out of context words in there right now, which I hope to sit down and correct before the 1.08 release).

 

Would you be willing to beta-test v1.08 in regards to the translation? Also maybe go over the missing strings (we added a few since v1.07)?


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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In preparation for beta-testing "In the North", I made the effort to make the mission translation-ready.

 

After a couple of issues that Tels helped me with, I was able to understand the process and complete it.

 

The only part I needed to deal with manually was setting up the guis. It took all of 30 mins. Having done that once--unless I make wholesale changes to the gui texts--I don't need to do it again.

 

It takes 5 seconds to run the Perl script that inserts the #str_* strings into the map and xdata files and creates a PK4 copy. Another minute to paste the prepared gui strings into the 2 copies of the english.lang file (one in the mission PK4 and one in the I18N PK4).

 

Voila!

 

I released the altered PK4 and the I18N PK4 to a 1.08 (actually, SVN) beta test about a week ago, and all 3 testers have completed the mission. While I have a lot of comments on how to make the mission even better, I have NONE related to the #str_* replacements.

 

Everything works as advertised. Completely transparent.

 

Thanks, Tels. B)

 

Once the beta is complete and I know none of the English texts will be shifting around, the package will go off to the translators, whom I've already contacted so they know it's coming.

 

If someone plays it in a different language and publishes comments that indicate they had a different experience than what I initially intended, I and the translators can always straighten that out. But at least they got to play it.

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Here is one small thing: If you want to run the script over your missions, it is important to use the dictionary as it will be released with v1.08 - there have been a small number of changes and additions since v1.07 and FMs should use this version. The script-archive on http://www.bloodgate.com/mirrors/tdm/pub/scripts/ has already been updated, so please redownload it.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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[...] what if by accident a translation makes a mockery out of your pivotal storyline moment?

Then kill it with fire. The translator, I mean. A slight shift in perspective may always be needed one way or another, some things may be lost/changed in translation (esp. WRT poetry), but that is just plain wrong.

The point for me is simple, there should be a good relation between mission makers and translators, to make sure the work is accurate and the essence of the story comes accross perfectly. It would help immensely that the person that is going to translate actually played the mission and enjoyed it, as you can get rather silly mistakes and misinterpretations when you translate something literally, but out of context (which was my main problem translatiing the GUI - I didnt know where the strings were located in-game, so there are several out of context words in there right now, which I hope to sit down and correct before the 1.08 release). If you like the source material and are willing to put the work in order to honour the effort involved in creating the mission, that's all there is to it for me.

Amen.

Boils down to :

* trust

* competence

* testing

Blind translation can turn bad - I'll always warn about it, or will only do it because I have no other choice. I feel lucky in that I got around to "translating" (more like hacking) 1.0, so the GUI was no stranger to me in the end, as it was testing round upon testing round...

OTOH I translated quite a few missions before playing them - just to get a whiff of the writing style, and to spoil the mission completely beforehand. It's quite helpful for several reasons :

* No hidden parchment I might overlook while playing

* Helps focus on the translation while playing - there's always time to replay it for kicks later, when you've forgotten quite a bit (I totally should play Patently Dangerous again :D)

* Once you collect all the readables, all that's left to do is quicksave, then you may reload, modify, reload, modify, ... at will, with no concern about the mission itself, completely focusing - again - on the readables and the style. Then you can play the mission normally, for pleasure and LOOT. :)

 

Anyway, on a more general note...

The main - heck, the ONLY - problem is trust, again. 'cause: "Is it worth it?" - sorry to be blunt... but it's NONE of the author's concern. You want full disclosure? I started translating Thief missions for exactly ONE person - and still do, as far as I'm concerned. Anyone else plays them and enjoys it? Good. What's it to any FM author? There's no work involved on their part. There is, indeed, a risk of having an incompetent dimwit screwing it competely. Maybe I'm it and you'll never know (though I hope not). But even if the atmosphere is half-broken, even if the localized version doesn't do the original justice, there's also a chance that someone / some people will be thankful because they understood most of it.

 

You want broken? I'll give you broken. The person I'm talking about hereabove has played countless missions - i.e. very probably a good bunch of missions those concerned with the quality of localization created. She doesn't understand ONE word of English. She'd be unable to communicate with them. Yet she could enjoy the stories (and missions as a whole) to some extent. She parsed any and all readable she found through Google Translate.

 

Now just one question : how can THAT be ANY better than a bad translation? Have you ever tried that? Get a french game, parse it all through Translate? Go ahead, I'll be waiting here. :)

 

How many people will paly the localized version is kind of a moot point. Untethered TDM is still a ways off, but how will the public evolve once / if it becomes a reality? There's no telling how TDM will - for example - propagate through the linux repositories, how many people will be willing to have a look at it, and stay - or leave. Nor can anyone tell in which language they'll play. They might be content with English, reluctent but capable of playing in English, or plain unable to play because they don't understand anything.

 

Say 50 people play TDM in French on a regular basis... Even compared to the ~2500 people on this very forum, it's not such a small number. It may even nudge people into creating missions themselves. DrK, Rocksourg - names ring a bell, anyone? Proud member of the French community. The Cauchemars series? French creation. Would any of them have been created without a French version of Thief? We'll never know. Probably not though.

 

Another example - I like to translate stuff for my kids. Now my oldest is starting to like creepy stuff more than I'm comfortable with. Goosebumps is barely enough to satisfy her, Harry Potter is just kiddie stuff even for her... I can picture her taking some of the creepier TDM missions. She doesn't understand English though - well, not yet.

 

It may or may not be worth it, indeed. But... c'mon, do we really need to give a f*ck? No matter which system is used, as long as every player is able to play the mission and grasp what's going on and understand that clue that leads to the loot... It's pretty much fine IMO. Anything else is added value - which the translators are here to bring... Well, I certainly hope so, at least. xD

 

It's a nice egg-and-chicken quarrel that's rolling around here. Simple question: would you rather have players flee or parse your mission with oh-such-a-nice-style through Google Translate?

 

Now... Let's forget the "is there a public" question. It's pointless as can be, and will forever be unless the Mod silently gathers data about who plays in which language.

 

If anyone wants proof of the translators' competence, it can always be found. I, for one, don't give a damn. Truth be told, I like to be put to the test. I've been. It always ended up in my work getting the green light so far. Sometimes even before any kind of check by bilingual people; I can forward a mail or three with examples.

 

Anyway. I certainly won't pretend any of my translations are perfect - in fact, I may very well play those translated missions again and find some details I should touch up - and do so.

 

I'm in it because I like to translate, and because I love the mod. Authors are in it - at least I hope they are - because they like to map and write and love the mod. Why are we even bitching? Oo

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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The funny thing is, all FMs use the I18N system under he hood since v1.07 and are automatically modified upon loading the FM

 

What do you mean they're "automatically modified"?

 

The only part I needed to deal with manually was setting up the guis. It took all of 30 mins.

 

And how would you have felt about letting someone else do it, and upload it without you seeing the result? That's really what we're talking about here, and I suspect you might have had some hesitation about it.

 

 

But even if the atmosphere is half-broken, even if the localized version doesn't do the original justice, there's also a chance that someone / some people will be thankful because they understood most of it.

 

We should be clear that there are two different objections here.

 

1) I don't like the idea of my maps being translated because the translated version might not be very good.

 

2. I don't want my original files altered because it changes ALL versions of my mission.

 

Issue #1 doesn't bother me. As long as it's clear that people are playing a translation, I don't feel responsible if the experience isn't very good. It's not my responsibility, and it's better than nothing....people who don't want the risk of playing a bad translation don't have to play it.

 

Issue #2 is a big concern for me, however. Because if the translator breaks something in my .map file, then EVERYONE plays the broken version, including English speakers, who will assume the error is my fault. All it takes if for someone translating a briefing not to pay attention to the size of the windowdef so text goes off the screen, or they mess up the timing, or mix up the order of the text. Then people play the mission and think, "Oh, that's sloppy," without having any idea that it's the translator who broke it.

 

It's easy to argue, "Oh, mappers shouldn't feel this way", but obviously some of them do.

 

If translated versions do not overwrite the originals, then this problem completely goes away, however.

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Issue #2 is a big concern for me, however. Because if the translator breaks something in my .map file, then EVERYONE plays the broken version, including English speakers, who will assume the error is my fault. All it takes if for someone translating a briefing not to pay attention to the size of the windowdef so text goes off the screen, or they mess up the timing, or mix up the order of the text. Then people play the mission and think, "Oh, that's sloppy," without having any idea that it's the translator who broke it.

 

It's easy to argue, "Oh, mappers shouldn't feel this way", but obviously some of them do.

 

If translated versions do not overwrite the originals, then this problem completely goes away, however.

 

Seems like i'm and the translators are idiots.

 

In your opinion, I that create multilingual packages i'm such an idiot not to check at all? knymed has spent at least 4 hours for TESTING the translations with a score to settle. FOUR hours.

I'm thinking to ask knymed to delete the package from his pc.

 

mix up the order of the text
WHAT are you saying? o_O

you are talking about something that you not know at all ....

 

-----------------

Ah, and probably i will delete the package of "the phrase book", so the translation quality problem does not arise.

Edited by ECHELON

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Well, as far as everyone knows his place, I don't see any of issue #2 happening.

 

I mean, I'm a hobbyist translator, and I know full well how easily things can break - heck, I still shudder at the thought of having to reportal or whatwasit Thief missions just because modifying one item in the map file screwed up the whole shigamajig. Everyone doing it and having half a brain would know messing with map files is a baaaaad idea unless you're a mapper yourself, know what you're doing, how, why, and what the result will be - and even then you would know you better check it again in-game once you're done. Same goes for intros.

 

Adding a page to the briefing/a readable is the most I would do, because it's rather common work, unlikely to break anything, and I will check in-game again. And again. And again.

 

It's even more of a non-issue thanks to Tels's script. Maybe I shouldn't, but I fully trust him with it. If he says it does the job and doesn't break anything, I have no reason not to believe him whatsoever - after all, he's the coder; and should anything break, I guess he'll see it soon enough. If something's out of place in the output files, I guess it'll show while I'm working on it too.

 

Nonetheless, I can understand the "better safe than sorry". Were I a mapper, I would run the script myself, I think. Just to play the mission again and make sure everything's A-OK - unless I misunderstood everything, if the EN version is OK, it will remain OK no matter what happens. Then once I have run it on 3/4 missions and provided nothing gets screwed, I think I could run it without a second look, being 100% sure it's safe. Or wait until a few people did it and confirm everything's fine.

 

 

But frankly, Tels's script provides the translator with the material needed, nothing more - and sometimes less (unless I fscked up when running it): it won't check for textures. It couldn't, I guess. So that's the only material the translators will have to touch. I don't know - and I couldn't care less - if it was intended, or just a nifty side-effect of the script, but it's much safer to translate a mission now than it was for 1.0. No one touches the .map, the .aas32, no one touches... heck, ANYTHING except the textures (EDIT - and even then he's working on a COPY).

 

If a translator gets to break something with those in place, I say put him on the public place, stone him, then hang him, burn him alive, then feed his corpse to the maggots. Because he's one frigging idiot. And a dangerous one. Give Darwin a hand. :blink:

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Seems like i'm and the translators are idiots.

 

Only idiots make mistakes? That's news to me.

 

you are talking about something that you not know at all ....

 

Yeah, I don't know anything about .guis, or briefings, or how easy they are to mess up. :rolleyes:

 

By my count, Sotha is the only person here who has done more briefings than I have.

 

 

 

No one touches the .map, the .aas32, no one touches... heck, ANYTHING except the textures

 

It's not just textures. If you have maps, you have to modify the image files and material shaders. If it's a briefing you have to modify the .gui files, and possibly convert images to text; if it's a loading screen you have to modify images and .guis, etc. It can add up, and there are plenty of places where things can go wrong.

 

Having someone else modify my original files means that either:

 

1. I have to double-check their work afterwards.

2. I have to completely trust someone I don't know with something I spent years working on.

 

Neither one of those is appealing to me. And as long as translations can be done without modifying the original pk4, neither one should be necessary either.

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Only idiots make mistakes? That's news to me.

All it takes if for someone translating a briefing not to pay attention to the size of the windowdef so text goes off the screen, or they mess up the timing, or mix up the order of the text.

 

You are talking like i take your texts, put them into google translate, then in the package e finally upload it, without check nothing.

 

 

Yeah, I don't know anything about .guis, or briefings, or how easy they are to mess up. :rolleyes:

Yes, i repeat if you had not realized, you don't known know nothing about how the multilanguage system works, otherwise you never said this:

 

mix up the order of the text.

 

because it is all automatic.

Edited by ECHELON

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because it is all automatic.

 

Translating briefing guis is automatic? That's news to me. It certainly wasn't for Tears of St. Lucia...maybe I've missed some major update since May?

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Translating briefing guis is automatic? That's news to me. It certainly wasn't for Tears of St. Lucia...maybe I've missed some major update since May?

This FOR THE MOMENT (because it will become automatic in the future), is the only thing not automatic and this is MY task. ONLY MY TASK, not a translators problem. And (we are talking average about of 2 strings) i check this process at least 3/4 times. It is enough, or i have to check one thousand of times?

Edited by ECHELON

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Ok, so after attacking me for not knowing what I'm talking about, I'm actually correct. Good to know.

 

This FOR THE MOMENT (because it will become automatic in the future),

 

So there is going to be something that will automatically scan .dds files, read the text on them, and then convert it to actual text in a similar font and modify the .gui so that it doesn't load the images anymore? That will be impressive indeed.

 

Until that time, however, guis, maps and loading screens must still be modified by hand.

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It's not just textures. If you have maps, you have to modify the image files and material shaders. If it's a briefing you have to modify the .gui files, and possibly convert images to text; if it's a loading screen you have to modify images and .guis, etc. It can add up, and there are plenty of places where things can go wrong.

To me, image file/image == texture. It's all dds and tga, so yeah. Textures. :D

Which leaves .gui files. Screwing those and NOT noticing is about as hard as missing a pink elephant in a well-lit tunnel (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong ^^).

 

Having someone else modify my original files means that either:

 

1. I have to double-check their work afterwards.

2. I have to completely trust someone I don't know with something I spent years working on.

 

Neither one of those is appealing to me. And as long as translations can be done without modifying the original pk4, neither one should be necessary either.

's a pity. Seriously. Point 1 should never even APPEAR in such a discussion. Unless you're crowdsourcing or some shit - thank gods, that's not what's going on here. Point 2 is... well, hurtful. 'f course a blunder is NEVER fully out of question. But if you can't trust your fellow man to check his shit... Once again, we're all here because we like and care about the mod. I don't exactly picture ECHELON - or anyone - screwing it for fun. Unless he's a troll and takes pleasure in diminishing other people's work... But whatever. I've learned to swallow my pride and not fight back against such arguments. As long as I get the opportunity to re-release missions in French to the best of my abilities, how it's wrapped up isn't my concern. I'm just a translator. :P

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Until that time, however, guis, maps and loading screens must still be modified by hand.

Now, in a lot of mission, i have to modify only two/three strings of guis and sometimes if there are images, they will modified with photoshop etc. Where is the problem?

Are you worried i can't change correctly two strings or that i can't use photoshop? Tell me.

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However, i understood that talking with you and sotha about this questions is useless, so i'll resolve the problem at the root: i and knymed will not do any conversion of your missions (i deleted now conversion of the phrase book) and will not translate any of your missions. So the quality of english remains intact at 100% and SURE there is no bug caused for the translation. ;)

 

I'm sorry only about at the great number of hours that we spent for your missions (translation and convertion done).

Edited by ECHELON

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Hey people, please mind that if someone translates a mission, someone else should also do this. So they can reread and discuss about the right translations, that may lowers the fear of "making a mockery out of pivotal, shiny, awesome, heart breaking storyline moments" of some authors ^_^

 

A good thing would be to ask the authors who's missions you want to translate before you start, it's a shame that you have to delete all your work now :unsure:

 

Don't give up, boys! ;)

 

Just 4 fun :)

 

15308972,11419161,dmData,uebelsetzungteaser+%25281307206844161%2529.jpg

Edited by SeriousToni

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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And how would you have felt about letting someone else do it, and upload it without you seeing the result? That's really what we're talking about here, and I suspect you might have had some hesitation about it.

 

I have no problems with the translators doing their job. I'm sure Stephen King doesn't proofread each of the 84,000 languages his books are translated to, so I'm not going to worry about the translators screwing up. After all, it's in their best interest to do a proper job.

 

That having been said, I will carry the ball as far as I can carry it: I'll run the perl script because I can; I'll test the English results because I can; I'll manually prepare the gui files because I can. But when I get to the door that says, "French" or "German" or whatever, I'll hand it to a translator so that he can carry it the rest of the way. And I'll say, "Thank you!", because the translators are going to allow more people to play the mission. And that's what it's all about in the end, at least for me. I'll even hand over my Photoshop files for the text-laden images--assuming the translator can use them--and whatever else I think might make the job easier.

 

If we're talking about the author not being given the chance to see the translated output, then I'd have a problem with that. I'd want to at least do a sanity check: test the output to make sure the mission still runs and guis and readables are okay. (I expect them to be fine.) But darned if I'll know what anything says, so I'll choose not to worry about that. If I have a horde of French-speaking players at my door the next month demanding my head because one of my translated readables offended them, then I'll know something's wrong.

 

If mission authors don't want their missions translated, that's fine too. This is a hobby for all of us and the world isn't going to come to an end because an author only wants his mission released in his native language.

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i and knymed will not do any conversion of your missions (i deleted now conversion of the phrase book) and will not translate any of your missions.

 

Do you want a list of all the other things I've worked on? Maybe you'd like to delete them too. :rolleyes:

 

Seriously, I don't understand the level of emotion you're bringing to the table. No one has made any criticism of you in any way, yet you've reacted with what seems like extreme defensiveness, not to mention unfounded accusations.

 

I gave permission for my missions to be translated as long as the original package wasn't modified. If that's not sufficient, then you shouldn't translate them. But since it's possible to translate them without modifying the original package, I don't understand why there's a problem. Non-English speakers get to play the mission, and I maintain control over my original files. Seems like win-win to me.

 

it's a shame that you have to delete all your work now

 

This is not a matter of "have to". Seems more like "I'm taking my ball and going home".

 

 

I don't exactly picture ECHELON - or anyone - screwing it for fun.

 

When did anyone say anything remotely like that? I never suggested anyone would intentionally wreck something. All I said was that mistakes happen, and you've already agreed with that yourself. I'm not even speaking hypothetically...I've seen a briefing get screwed up while being prepared for translation.

 

Missions get released with mistakes even after being fully tested by the original author and several beta-testers. It doesn't make any of them "idiots."

 

Since:

1. Mistakes happen, and

2. I will be judged on the content of the original mission.

 

therefore:

 

3. I want to be the only one responsible for mistakes in my original files.

 

The only way to accomplish this is one of the two methods I listed in my previous post.

 

I'd want to at least do a sanity check: test the output to make sure the mission still runs and guis and readables are okay.

 

Well, that's option 1 of the two I listed.

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i deleted now conversion of the phrase book) and will not translate any of your missions.

Do you want a list of all the other things I've worked on? Maybe you'd like to delete them too. :rolleyes:

I'm beginning to wonder if I could somehow delete all the missions I've contributed to this mod. Could someone delete them from the main repository and the mirror sites, please.

 

More seriously: the grim amusement that comes from the situation is that everyone participating, in principle, had good intentions.

 

1) Translators wanted to make the missions available to their countrymen.

2) Mappers, in my view, presented a valid concern the way their missions are handled. I was merely concerned, Springs had even a preference how things should be done.

3) Somehow people do not understand each other. The tone of the discussion adjusts.

4) The thread succumbs into madness.

 

Sad day, I wonder if the community award TDM got will be revoked. <_<


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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When did anyone say anything remotely like that? I never suggested anyone would intentionally wreck something. All I said was that mistakes happen, and you've already agreed with that yourself. I'm not even speaking hypothetically...I've seen a briefing get screwed up while being prepared for translation.

Missions get released with mistakes even after being fully tested by the original author and several beta-testers. It doesn't make any of them "idiots."

Since:

1. Mistakes happen, and

2. I will be judged on the content of the original mission.

therefore:

3. I want to be the only one responsible for mistakes in my original files.

The only way to accomplish this is one of the two methods I listed in my previous post.

Well, that's option 1 of the two I listed.

Hey, I didn't say you said or even suggested it either, what I was saying is just this: we're all serious about what we do. You like to release a quality mission, we like to release quality translations, you can overlook a grammar mistake and get a horde of raving nazis the next day and we can fumble the translation just as bad. Of course things can go wrong. And they can always be corrected. Don't make me say what I didn't. As I said, I can't do jack about trust. Either we earn it or we don't. If the work done so far hasn't earned it by now, it's completely pointless to even discuss the matter. Had it been earned, the matter wouldn't even be on the table. So yeah, we're pretty much on the same page here, just with different views about something else, which is: how do we handle your missions? :)

 

The only question is: what's the distribution method? If it's separate files, then there's no need to even discuss this.

 

If it's I18N only / EN only, Well... you're screwed, we're screwed, the players are screwed. People who don't understand English won't play your mission (grmbl - EDIT: technically, they'll play it. What I mean is, some won't understand a thing, ruining half the fun). You lose nothing, sure. You don't gain nothing either. Players are screwed - at least those who don't understand English. And I'm honestly wondering who's looking bad. :/

 

Oh. And ECHELON deletes all the work he's done on your missions. Which is perfectly normal, as the missions being released as I18N require said work. So why should he keep the temporary files if they're not to be used? And why should he start working on any other of you missions? I think THAT is what he means. ;)

 

(hint: on a more egocentric level, I don't give a damn, I'll still be able to play it. \o/ - hint not be taken too seriously)

 

 

@Sotha: Huh? Nah. ECHELON just takes it a bit personally methinks. Which is quite normal given how much work he's putting into it. I can understand him, so can I understand Springheel's concern. :)

EDIT - And it all comes down to trust. ECHELON does his best. He's just asking for a bit of trust, and being denied that can hurt. Again, what we need is an answer: what's the distribution method. Then either we leave Springheel's missions alone (and delete the modified files as they won't be used), or split everything, or whatever makes the most sense (cf. posts about it earlier in the discussion - splitting could work, but depends on the team, what they're willing to do and will do, blah blah blah). No need to descend into madness. ^^

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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@Sotha and Springheel,

you have said so far you do not need translations, you're afraid of everything and more. Therefore, what do you lose if the missions remain english? I think nothing, for your POV.

 

I have done this work for YOU and only you, not only you did not tell me a fuckin 'thank you', but are 3 pages of topics you're saying "this is not good", this sucks etc., all sucks ...

Sotha have you at least checked the package i've created for the phrase book from one week? I think no.

So, why i should do this work for this people if the missions not be tried by the authors themselves and they can only criticize?

 

 

Oh. And ECHELON deletes all the work he's done on your missions. Which is perfectly normal, as the missions being released as I18N require said work. So why should he keep the temporary files if they're not to be used? And why should he start working on any other of you missions? I think THAT is what he means. ;)

 

Yes, exactly what I think. :)

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I have not had any time nor motivation to do any TDM work lately. So no, I've not done anything. This discussion has not raised my motivation, on the contrary, certain comments, especially by Tels, has created a strong feeling I should never do any work for this mod at all. I'm that upset and disappointed over all this stuff here.

 

Also, if you already deleted the files I don't have much to thank you for, don't you think? ;)


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Also, if you already deleted the files I don't have much to thank you for, don't you think? ;)

 

 

has been a week since I put the package, so IF YOU WANTED say "thanks" you'd already done. But you do not care about and even if i'll redo the work, you do not care about it again. :)

Edited by ECHELON

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This discussion has not raised my motivation, on the contrary, certain comments, especially by Tels, has created a strong feeling I should never do any work for this mod at all. I'm that upset and disappointed over all this stuff here.

Care to explain? I mean, pretty much everyone here has reasons to be unsatisfied, and I guess some kind of compromise will have to be found one way or another, but if everyone goes "to hell with it", we are going to have one hell of a time making progress. Maybe I'm stupid, but I cannot even begin to fathom how our interests differ on this matter. You make missions so people enjoy them, we translate missions so even more / different people enjoy them. Aside from the technicalities of the matter, why in blazes is there such resentment towards Tels's and our work? Genuinely puzzled, here. Oo

 

HUGE EDIT BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE DOUBLE POSTING :

 

* Unless I misunderstood, the original intent is to update all missions and prepare them for I18N, thereby modifying the original pk4 and redistributing them.

* Are said packages betatested? Yes. Enough? No idea. I sure hope ECHELON checks his stuff, but I'm as unsure as your average mapper that he plays each and every mission from beginning to end.

* OTOH, is extensive testing really needed? Tels assures that the script "just works™". No reason not to believe him - and especially not for in-game items and readables. I've been copypasting strings from my old translations into the newer system, everything looks fine and dandy as far as those are concerned. Every time. So unless ECHELON's hiding things, the answer is: nope. Only the GUI part of the missions has to be double/triple checked.

* ECHELON assures us he DOES double/triple check the GUI parts.

* The EN version (or PL, JP, whatever the original language is) is basically 100% unaffected when all is said and done - except, yes, the files are modified.

* Authors have no way to check the translation quality. Not that they would have any if the I18N system wasn't in place.

* Authors want their original files untouched for whatever reason. I guess fear is the only word I see fitting in the hole here (not an attack, I really can't see any other word, except "concern"... The difference isn't that big in this case).

* Flamewars all over the place apparently, for no good reason. Lemme rephrase that: for no sane reason.

 

From a technical POV, there are 3 ways the I18N system can be used for old missions (as opposed to "missions created with I18N in place from the start and everyone stops bitching and walks the dinosaur):

* Both versions co-exist: swing (example chosen just because it's one word, and short) and swing_i18n. System checks TDM language and downloads accordingly: swing.pk4 for EN, swing_i18N.pk4 for anyone else

* Both versions do not co-exist: well too bad. Then no one touches the missions of anyone who doesn't want his files altered and doesn't want to run the script himself.

* Both versions do not co-exist, Tels makes a rollback to 1.0 and to hell with localization.

 

What the heck's going on here, guys? Seriously? I can't say I'll bitch on any author who specifies it's NOT OK for people to touch his files. At worst, I'll just be wondering why he won't make the extra effort to do it himself. Time? Mmh. Sure. According to grayman it takes all of a whopping 30 minutes.

 

And BTW - How many people will play the localized version, was asked earlier. Mmh. I can give you a nugget of data about that, as small and non-representative as it is. The hotfix for the 1.07 French translation (I had forgotten I had made it available on my blog. Go figure. Oo) has been checked (and probably downloaded) 19 times.

 

screenshot-073112-123916.png

 

Most missions I made available on my 4shared and distributed to the French community have been downloaded around 20 times too (the 1.0 translation was downloaded 27 times, so the data is quite consistent), with the notable exception of The Thieves (the last one I translated if my memory isn't playing tricks on me), which was downloaded 41 times.

 

screenshot-073112-124444.png

 

Those statistics do not take any download from the TDM repositories into account, they're merely a mirror of my own efforts. Furthermore, I'm absolutely nobody, my online presence is quite minimal, and most people don't have any idea what Ariane4ever is (and that's the only place where I've been advertising said works). So when I said 50 earlier in this thread, pinkie tells me I'm probably underestimating it. So if you want figures, well you can try and check on those. So is it worth it? Well, if you can say "50 people don't make much of a difference", sure, go ahead. It's still a matter of perspective.

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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