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ECHELON

Conversion of ALL fan missions to i18n system (important)

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jYQVrOiNSjlXU.jpg

 

Community Award !! :P

 

Seriously, why the discussion? Leave the people who don't want you to touch their stuff alone! Why do you emulate THEM? You will get your "thank you" from the people who played the translated missions soon enough! Because they didn't need to alt+tab the game every fifth word in the readable with 12 pages to find the meaning and get the hint for that last door to finally open it.

 

There are enough other fan missions out there.

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"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Where's the "like" button when you need it? ^^

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"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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It's right there, on the bottom right of the comment. How about you stop trolling Sotha until a technical solution can be reached (even if you think a technical solution has already been reached)?

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Mmh, right. Answering questions about whether there's a public for translation, trying to summarize what's itching everyone and trying to find a way out of the status quo is trolling. Mkay. Guess I'll keep working by PM only then. Oo


"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Précisément! Every issue here is solvable and answerable, but this thread is toxic. So please do keep in in PM land for now.

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I have done this work for YOU and only you, not only you did not tell me a fuckin 'thank you',

 

Translating missions is for the benefit of people who would otherwise not be able to play them. It doesn't benefit the mapper in any tangible way, so if you're going to delete translations unless the author gives you a big thank you (and within a 7 day period, thank you very much) then you might be going about it the wrong way.

 

* Both versions co-exist: swing (example chosen just because it's one word, and short) and swing_i18n. System checks TDM language and downloads accordingly: swing.pk4 for EN, swing_i18N.pk4 for anyone else

 

The system doesn't even have to check. If you want the translated version, download swing_i18N.pk4; if you don't, download the original. Having the system check is just nice so that you don't see both in the download list, but it isn't necessary.

 

Since this option would solve nearly every issue that has been raised in this thread, and since it's already possible to do, and since I haven't heard _anyone_ give a reason why this option is undesirable or problematic, I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about.

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has been a week since I put the package, so IF YOU WANTED say "thanks" you'd already done. But you do not care about and even if i'll redo the work, you do not care about it again. :)

 

I always said I was *not* interested in translation stuff. However, I did give permission to translate maps if someone wanted to. Original post is here:

http://forums.thedar...post__p__291178

 

BTW: The same post said also:

Remembering the last discussion about translation I was involved with I'll add the following text: If someone feels inclined to call me lazy or selfish because of this decision, please don't do that. I've seen a lot of trouble to give this mission to the community and I will be very upset and unhappy if you do that.

 

So with all this hostility again, frankly, I'm all fed up with these translation talks. Statistical analysis (two out of two) indicates nothing good ever comes out of them, I'm sorry to say, only unpleasantness. I'll eagerly wait until someone shows I'm wrong.

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Translating missions is for the benefit of people who would otherwise not be able to play them. It doesn't benefit the mapper in any tangible way, so if you're going to delete translations unless the author gives you a big thank you (and within a 7 day period, thank you very much) then you might be going about it the wrong way.

 

Ah, and the possibile increase of players of the map thanks to translations is NOT a benefit for the mapper, right? I understand.

Edited by ECHELON

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Since this option would solve nearly every issue that has been raised in this thread, and since it's already possible to do, and since I haven't heard _anyone_ give a reason why this option is undesirable or problematic, I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about.

 

Ditto - it's just that the talks here seem to indicate that the old versions are bound to disappear, leading to... well, problems. If that is the system as it will be, then joy all round. I'm off now, I don't have any gripes with anyone and I'd like to keep it that way. :)


"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Since this option would solve nearly every issue that has been raised in this thread, and since it's already possible to do, and since I haven't heard _anyone_ give a reason why this option is undesirable or problematic, I'm still not sure what all the fuss is about.

 

For added convenience, TDM could treat a single-language (one translation per i18N file) i18N.pk4 as a special file containing only translated text and bitmaps, then load two files when the map is loaded, if an alternate (not default) language is chosen in a drop down list (Default - Language X, et al.). In this scenario, the in-game downloader would associate all translations that have been uploaded to the system with a particular mission, even if the mission author didn't grant explicit permission, since there would be no modification of the mapper's original pk4. This would eliminate duplicate entries in the downloader and users would only need to download small file(s) to be able to play a mission in multiple languages. Alternatively, these small pk4s could be downloaded on their own, and TDM would recognize them, as long as they followed some naming convention (such as mapname_i18N_fr.pk4). This method would require some (slight?) code modification for the downloader, the mission select screen, the map initializer (although Tels said that 1.07 "converts" missions to i18N at runtime. his words: "The funny thing is, all FMs use the I18N system under he hood since v1.07 and are automatically modified upon loading the FM"), and the central database(s) holding TDM missions.

 

Echelon, I don't think anybody can say that including translations will not increase the TDM userbase. But you can't exactly say the opposite, or at least predict the magnitude without doing it, and Tels has already done 90% of the work so it will happen anyway. My proposal above may be able to solve the issue of map authors having to quality check translations, because missions PROBABLY won't break and their intervention is not required. Maybe a bug in the proposed mod code or some extremely malformed strings and bitmaps could cause a mission to break, but the default mission would be very much intact, and the mapper would be assured that the intended audience can play the mission exactly as it was built. As for Language X players questioning Mapper Y over Broken Translation Z, how would that work? They don't speak the same language, tee hee!

Edited by jaxa

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Ah, and the possibile increase of players of the map thanks to translations is NOT a benefit for the mapper, right?

 

Correct. Knowing that there is a non-English speaking community out there playing my missions doesn't do anything for me. I can't join that community, I can't get feedback from them, and I can't understand anything from their reviews or videos (There's already a Finnish Let's Play of my mission on Youtube, but since I can't understand it, I haven't watched it). I can appreciate that it's nice for the people who get to play it in their own language (except all the AI dialogue, of course), but it really doesn't affect me one way or the other.

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Ok, there are two issues in this debate: the technical side, which I will cover in this post, and the human side, which I will cover (maybe) in the next post.

 

Here we go:

 

Automatic translation and modification of FMs:

------------------------------------------------------

Springheel said:

 

Posted Yesterday, 08:30 PM

 

The funny thing is, all FMs use the I18N system under he hood since v1.07 and are automatically modified upon loading the FM

 

What do you mean they're "automatically modified"?

 

When a map is "prepared" for translation with the I18N.pl script, all the script does is replacing certain hard-coded english strings in the map file with templates like "#str_12345", so that later, when the map is running (played), the string template can be replaced by the text in the current selected language. Sometimes, this also replaces a hard-coded material shader name like "/map/of/town" with "#str_12345" so these can be "map/of/town_en" and "map/of/town_de" depending on language.

 

So that instead of always seeing the same image (with english text on it), the users sees an image in their own language, or instead of "Silver Key" the users sees "Silberner Schlüssel".

 

That is all the "modification" that is done to the map file. Nothing less and nothing more. The same goes for GUI files, of course.

 

Now the automatic part is that the code contains (live since November 2011) a small list of reveser-strings, that cover often-used item names like "Mine", "Waterarrow", "Blackjack", as well as inventory group names like "Tools". When a map is loaded, any entity that has such a name or inventory group gets modified, so that instead of "Blackjack" it has "#str_02428", or instead of "Tools" it has "#str_02394".

 

This has two effects:

 

* first, the mission in the memory is already modified, just as you had run the I18N.pl script on it

 

(remember, that I said we are nice in that we ask authors for permission instead of automatically translating everything for them? That wasn't a threat, it was a statement of fact,and we are not nice because we are nice, but just because I think it is much easier to ask for permission and do manual translation, because a full automatic translation is way too complicated. But it is not like it could be done, and it is not like the author could do anything about it - once TDM loads a mission, it is free to do whatever with the mission in memory and the author has to call himself lucky that we don't replace every second readable with "Bananas!" :P Joking aside. We are really nice people here. :)

 

* certain important entities (like weapons etc.) are already translated. This is esp. important for things in the menu (which technically do not belong to the mission, but are nevertheless stored there, like the difficulty names like "Easy"), as well as inventory groups. In German "Tools" is named "Werkzeuge", and it is important that all items are sorted into that category, instead of half of them being in "Tools", and the other half in "Werkzeuge". That would only confuse players.

 

This code works flawless so far (at least I did not get any reports otherwise), and has generally been completely overlooked. It just works.

 

So asking for "translate my FM, but do not modify my PK4 file" is quite pointless, as this already happens, just in a different place than you think.

 

 

As for why we do not apply this to everything:

 

* the core dictionary of TDM only contains generic or often-used strings. Burdening it with every string in every FM is not possible - it is updated way to seldom (maybe 2 times a year), nor desirable (who'd keep track of all these texts and changed?).

* it does not work for images or material shaders

* the automatic might err (is "Mine" an exploding decive or a place to mine coal?)

 

This is why every FM must carry its own dictionary with the things it needs.

 

---------------------------------------------------

 

Why translation must modify a PK4 at least once:

 

There is always talk about "translate stuff but don't touch it". I'd really wish people stop that nonsense. Apart from the technical reasons outline above that translation always also means modification, there is also the human factor (which I will outline below) in that this demand is completely unreasonable.

 

However, here are a few more technical reasons:

 

* if you'd translate a FM by creating "shadow I10N" PK4 which contains all modifications, you'd need to include a complete copy of the .map file. This file is HUGE. It might be 20% or more of an FM. So instead of having a 21 Mbyte FM.pk4 and a 2 Kbytes (2048 bytes!) FM_i10n.pk4, you'd have a 21 MByte FM.PK4, plus a 6 MByte FM_i10n.pk4. This has large implications for storage (both on the user's side, and the mirrors that host missions), plus traffic. Even worse is that the translations are expected to be updated quite a lot (think of all the languages, plus errors seen later), and this would make the traffic go through the roof

* the downloader in the game isn't even dealing with translation updates correctly (it also downloads the main PK4 needlessly), making it even MORE complicated by dealing with any crazy overlay schemes just so we don't modify the original PK4 file is not only insane, there isn't anyone actually working on it! I mean, the original bugs are not fixed due to lack of manpower, where do you think we get the people from that implement even more complicated stuff for free?

* there is no real reason a "shadow i10n".PK4 file is more safe than modifing the original PK4. Both can fail for the same reasons. Either it works, or it doesn't, but keeping the original file intact does not help anything in this regard.

* the translators had a very hard job with the original "replace the entire map" scheme. Now that they have I18N.pl, they will not touch any mission that requires a more complicated scheme mainly for the reasons that they already have way too much todo, the human factor ("screw it I am not translating this") will only add to this.

 

 

 

So in short, we just use the technical solution already provided and already used and tested, and stop coming up with solutions for unreasonable demands (which I will touch on in the next post).


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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About the human factor in this discussion:

 

I said in my previous post that there are "unreasonable demands". And here is why I think these are unreasonable:

 

The two authors here in question (Springheel and Sotha) have said different things which I try to summarize here (please correct me if wrong)

 

* they do allow translation, but only under their conditions which are roughly:

 

* the mapper has to do zero work (neither modify his PK4, nor do the testing, in short do nothing)

* the translator has to proof that he is good

* and suddenly, now also that the original PK4 file has not to be modified.

 

In addition, Sotha even said he wants ll his FMs now deleted (translated, or not).

 

Myself, I do think these are unreasonable demands, and the reaction of the translators (ignore these FMs) is the right decision. Here is why:

 

* That the mapper wants to do as little as possible is understandable - however, I am slightly confused why the mapper can't invest 1 hour to make the job of the translators X hours easier.

 

* The translators can't proof that their translation is good - obviously. How could the author verify if the Elbonian readables aren't jokes about his mother? OTOH, it is fully expected that the translations will all be of a very high quality, as high as it is possible working with people who invest their blood and spare time into this.

 

* the "don't modify the PK4" is nonsense for technical reasons (see post above), and even if it is met, I am sure another insanse demand would suddenly occur. Like "Don't translate this to Elbonian, because I hate Elbonians" or whatever. Or "Do not translate the briefing, I like it how it is."

 

 

There are various reasons given for these demands, but I think what people (and the "community") here riles up is that there are authors who obviously produce missions, but want to exclude certain people from playing them.

 

Springheel said:

 

Correct. Knowing that there is a non-English speaking community out there playing my missions doesn't do anything for me. I can't join that community, I can't get feedback from them, and I can't understand anything from their reviews or videos (There's already a Finnish Let's Play of my mission on Youtube, but since I can't understand it, I haven't watched it). I can appreciate that it's nice for the people who get to play it in their own language (except all the AI dialogue, of course), but it really doesn't affect me one way or the other.

 

Which means he really doesn't want people to play his missions, its just enough for him that he can produce the mission, players are entirely optional. (We have to be lucky that Spring is a native English speaker, and not from Iceland, I guess ;)

 

Sotha also said:

 

I'm beginning to wonder if I could somehow delete all the missions I've contributed to this mod. Could someone delete them from the main repository and the mirror sites, please.

 

(I think that was a joke, but I am not sure.)

 

Which not only means he doesn't want foreign people to play his missions, he also wants english players to NOT play his missions. For him it seems producing a mission, then deleting it is also fine. (Which I don't think, but again am not sure anymore)

 

----------------------------------------------------

 

Now, for some artists the portion of creating something it the entire satisfaction, and this is all fine, but I don't think the player-portion of the community appreciates that at all. Their only goal is to play FMs, and enjoy them.

 

Hindering translation, or deleting FMs does not help in this at all, instead it restircts the player base to an arbitrary subset. And this is what upsets the players. I wonder why the authors don't get this, as they surely are players, too?

 

So in short, the translators (and by extension the players) have only one demand: let someone modify and then translate your mission so more people can enjoy it. You (the author) don't even have to do anything. If that is asking too much, I wonder how the hell we ever got a community award.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Translating briefing guis is automatic? That's news to me. It certainly wasn't for Tears of St. Lucia...maybe I've missed some major update since May?

 

The reason GUI files are not automatically translated are:

 

* it is a LOT harder to write a GUI parser and something that can modify a GUI file than it seems. It would take me at least a few days, and even then it might not handle every cornercase. And when it fails, people would yell at me (you know the whole "I am providing a free service which does 99% of the work, and someone complains it doesn't do 110%" stuff). Also, the GUI file modification is a few minutes for a human. I couldn't justify spend so much time to automate this

* material shaders still need to maintained manually, so even if the GUI is done, the complaint would still be that the script is not 100%

* in the first idea I made it possible that FMs are translatable, automating the preparation for this was free bonus. Demanding every more from me just annoys me and makes me throw in the towel.

 

Now if someone says automatic translation of GUIs or images is impossible, I'd code it just to prove them wrong. But with the current "spirit" here that no matter what I do it is then ignored with every changing justifications, I just decided to do something else instead. Like playing other computer games, tending the garden or whatever.

 

And all the hatred here doesn't really compell me to pick up my work again and give more "free" stuff away to people who don't want it...


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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And to come to an conclusion to my ramblings here, I think it was Sotha who said that tiwce these threads have done no good.

 

When I made the first posts about translation, I got a PM from some italian user, who said the italian community considers this "a gift of god". I don't know about you, but getting my work called "a gift of god" has never happened before and I certainly think that "The FMs from Sotha in Italian are a gift of god" has a nice ring to it.

 

But maybe this is still nothing good.

 

And now I am off to drink a beer and play Legend of Grimrock. -_-


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Hmmm... Hyeron and Echelon (and Tels), I've read all your replies with interest, sorry if I wont go into details as I just dont have the time, but allow me to be a bit blunt, and make it simple:

 

Questions arose regarding the logistical issues involved in translating all the mod's missions (or most). This is only natural, and so far I dont understand the problem some people are having with this simple question. Instead of explanations, irony has been used, which is not useful. The question remains: how are the missions that will in fact get translations be available for the player (listed in the downloader?) and how to afford for the quite real possibility that missions will get fixes and even rework updates throughout time?

 

EDIT: This was written before Tel's reply on the system itself

 

Second, and most importantly, Springheel, Sotha and Grayman have all been quite reasonable towards the issue, raising the simple request that translations should be worthy of the original source.

 

To put it simply - Translators (me included):

 

1- If you feel inspired to translate a mission into your language, first thing to do is always to get permission from the author (wouldnt hurt to make sure you mention you intend on doing a good job, and referencing any other work on this, if any);

2- Considering permission is given, make sure the translation preserves the intention of the author as best as possible.

 

Again, I dont think there's anything else to this conversation, besides learning now all the technical steps to use Tels' system, for eligible missions.

All contributors go through criticism as well as praise, when in doubt, just follow any of the mission threads or the WIP thread, you'll see a lot of demanding. We all are just pushing each other to get the best results or potential work possible.

Edited by RPGista

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*Reads Tels' posts*

*Head explodes*

 

*Reads RPGista's post*

*Wraps head back into one piece using a lot of duct tape*

 

Yep. The problem is that nobody understands anybody anymore. My declaration from my first post in this vile thread still stands. It is in here:

http://forums.thedar...post__p__291451

 

If you have difficulties understanding it means:

1) translate my missions if you want

2) I don't want to be concerned at all with the translation

3) the translation should not have an impact on the playability or aesthetics of the FM;

4) if someone undertakes translation work, he or she should give his or her best -- I spent a lot of time writing those readables and briefings, meaning you should also do them justice.

5) Test the mission so nothing is broken

6) The english version should be exactly the same that was originally launched in game.

 

What on earth is the problem here?


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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To put it simply - Translators (me included):

 

1- If you feel inspired to translate a mission into your language, first thing to do is always to get permission from the author (wouldnt hurt to make sure you mention you intend on doing a good job, and referencing any other work on this, if any);

2- Considering permission is given, make sure the translation preserves the intention of the author as best as possible.

 

 

If you have difficulties understanding it means:

1) translate my missions if you want

2) I don't want to be concerned at all with the translation

3) the translation should not have an impact on the playability or aesthetics of the FM;

4) if someone undertakes translation work, he or she should give his or her best -- I spent a lot of time writing those readables and briefings, meaning you should also do them justice.

5) Test the mission so nothing is broken

6) The english version should be exactly the same that was originally launched in game.

 

What? I'm not allowed to use google translator for translating the books? Modifying the mission by inserting my new cool entities without testing it is also not allowed? :ph34r:


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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it is not like the author could do anything about it - once TDM loads a mission, it is free to do whatever with the mission in memory and the author has to call himself lucky that we don't replace every second readable with "Bananas!

 

Well that's a great attitude Tels. Threatening mission authors is definitely the way to go. Let's not recognize mission authors as the fucking engine that keeps TDM alive, let's antagonize them and tell them that they're "lucky" that we don't fuck up their mission for fun because we can do "whatever" we want.

 

You know how missions authors can stop you from doing that? They can stop making fucking missions. Is that what you want? I'm getting sick and tired of watching you label mappers as "selfish" or "unreasonable" because they don't want to do things the way YOU think is best. We've already lost greebo and you've came close to getting Sotha to quit once already. Maybe if you keep antagonizing him you can finish the job.

 

 

Springheel said:

Quote

 

Correct. Knowing that there is a non-English speaking community out there playing my missions doesn't do anything for me. I can't join that community, I can't get feedback from them, and I can't understand anything from their reviews or videos (There's already a Finnish Let's Play of my mission on Youtube, but since I can't understand it, I haven't watched it). I can appreciate that it's nice for the people who get to play it in their own language (except all the AI dialogue, of course), but it really doesn't affect me one way or the other.

 

Which means he really doesn't want people to play his missions, its just enough for him that he can produce the mission, players are entirely optional. (We have to be lucky that Spring is a native English speaker, and not from Iceland, I guess

 

Well, everyone, I guess since Tels hasn't bought computers for low income families that can't afford them, he doesn't really want people to play TDM. It's just enough for him that he can code things; users are entirely optional. (We have to be lucky that Tels has enough income to afford a good computer, I guess) Obviously he's just "selfish" and "wants to exclude certain people from playing" TDM, and treats people in lower income brackets as "second class citizens".

 

How does that sound from the other side?

 

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not stupid enough to think that's what I actually said, and that this is just ridiculous hyperbole on your part.

 

And all the hatred here doesn't really compell me to pick up my work again and give more "free" stuff away to people who don't want it...

 

Oh, the irony is thick.

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OFFS!

 

There is no doubt that the I18n work is extremely valuable. It doesn't even need explaining. Anybody who doesn't understand this is far beyond stupid. I don't believe anyone here is quite that stupid.

 

And there is no doubt that Tels has put a lot of work into it. I have witnessed this from the outside. It's been hard to miss.

 

And there is no doubt that anyone who wants to question the worth of such work (especially after all these months) is being an fucking asshole on the issue.

Edited by Monyana Azwell

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@Monyana,

i like your enthusiasm for i18n project, but I would not want the topic to become more "crap" than it is now. ;)

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Going back to the purely technical issues.

 

I'm going to take one more shot at explaining my proposal, just so that I can't accuse myself of lack of trying.

 

1. A mission exists that is not ready to be translated. Let's call it "FM.pk4"

 

2. Someone translates the mission (by whatever combination of script and manual work is required). This results in several modified files (.map and .gui files, possibly others). (so far, this is the same as we have now)

 

3. Instead of being saved into the original FM.pk4, these modified files are bundled into a "FM_i10n.pk4" file (or whatever the extension is), along with the other files that already go in there as part of the translation process.

 

4.. This "FM_i10n.pk4" overrides any files in the "FM.pk4" if it is downloaded. The modified .map file overrides the .map file in "FM.pk4", the modified .gui files do the same, etc.

 

5. The original "FM.pk4" has NOT been modified.

 

6. If you are an English speaker, you download the original "FM.pk4" and play it normally. As far as you are concerned, nothing has changed. There is no need for you to download anything else.

 

7. If you are a non-English speaker, you download the "FM_i10n.pk4" in addition to the "FM.pk4". It allows you to play the mission in your language (assuming someone has done the translation).

 

I fail to see how anyone could object to such a system.

 

 

The only issues raised against it have been:

 

Storage:

 

 

* if you'd translate a FM by creating "shadow I10N" PK4 which contains all modifications, you'd need to include a complete copy of the .map file. This file is HUGE. It might be 20% or more of an FM. So instead of having a 21 Mbyte FM.pk4 and a 2 Kbytes (2048 bytes!) FM_i10n.pk4, you'd have a 21 MByte FM.PK4, plus a 6 MByte FM_i10n.pk4. This has large implications for storage (both on the user's side, and the mirrors that host missions)

 

A large map like Heart or Flakebridge might be 6MB, but most maps will be smaller than that. But even if it added a few hundred MB, that's completely negligible in the days of 300 GB servers. Our own server can certainly handle it.

 

This is only an obstacle for someone determined to find an obstacle.

 

No Manpower:

 

the downloader in the game isn't even dealing with translation updates correctly ... there isn't anyone actually working on it!

 

Well, if translations aren't being dealt with correctly at the moment, that's a problem that needs to be fixed, regardless. It's not an argument against moving modified files to the FM_i10n.pk4.

 

 

Too Complicated:

 

there is no real reason a "shadow i10n".PK4 file is more safe than modifing the original PK4. Both can fail for the same reasons.

 

This is precisely the point of this system. Yes, the 'shadow pk4' can fail. But the original PK4 is completely "safe" because it has not been modified. Any errors come from the translator's 'shadow' file and aren't the original mapper's responsibility.

 

they will not touch any mission that requires a more complicated scheme mainly for the reasons that they already have way too much todo

 

Well, I would like to hear the translators' opinions on that. This system adds almost zero extra work for the translator. Instead of saving the modified .map file over top of the original, they save it in another location. I'm sure they can handle this extra "complication".

 

 

Conclusion:

 

I don't think any of the objections above are valid reasons not to use this system. It gives translators the freedom to modify whatever needs to be modified and at the same time gives mappers full control over the integrity of their original files. It's 100% transparent to those who don't need or use translations and gives those who do easy access to translated missions. It seems completely win-win. I can't imagine any mappers OR translators that would have problems with this system.

 

If I'm wrong, let me know.

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Going back to the purely technical issues.

 

I'm going to take one more shot at explaining my proposal, just so that I can't accuse myself of lack of trying.

 

1. A mission exists that is not ready to be translated. Let's call it "FM.pk4"

 

2. Someone translates the mission (by whatever combination of script and manual work is required). This results in several modified files (.map and .gui files, possibly others). (so far, this is the same as we have now)

 

3. Instead of being saved into the original FM.pk4, these modified files are bundled into a "FM_i10n.pk4" file (or whatever the extension is), along with the other files that already go in there as part of the translation process.

 

4.. This "FM_i10n.pk4" overrides any files in the "FM.pk4" if it is downloaded. The modified .map file overrides the .map file in "FM.pk4", the modified .gui files do the same, etc.

 

5. The original "FM.pk4" has NOT been modified.

 

6. If you are an English speaker, you download the original "FM.pk4" and play it normally. As far as you are concerned, nothing has changed. There is no need for you to download anything else.

 

7. If you are a non-English speaker, you download the "FM_i10n.pk4" in addition to the "FM.pk4". It allows you to play the mission in your language (assuming someone has done the translation).

 

I fail to see how anyone could object to such a system.

 

I object to such a system because:

 

* storage (your forgot that the storage is also used on every users computer, why should we waste it just to please you and alliate your irrational fears? Plus, our server might be big enough, but we have mirrors)

* bandwidth (you forgot to mention this one completely, both on our server, on the users side and on the uploaders (someone needs to UPLOAD all these changed i10n files!, and on the mirrors again)

* time users spent waiting for mission downloads (tied to bandwidth)

* too complicated (what is the point of keeping the original working english version, because you fear a broken foreign version? Apart from that being very very unlikely, it has also the funny idea that somehow the english players are more important, or indeed, we even have more english players than foreign players... What if the english package is broken but the translated one fixes that? Everything is possible, but that shouldn't mean we should care about every unlikely combination.)

* because it is just there to stroke YOUR ego (a person who does not care about other language players in the first place)

* and because it just throws my technical Sachverstand and my already planned and working solution out of the window, just because you aren't trusting me or the translators

* EDIT: I forgot on the "too complicated front": If a mission is updated (like Bikderdudes ones are twice a year :), then the "overriding" scheme you cooked up is in trouble, because it means the foreign mission is now suddenly broken and needs to be updated, too. With my scheme, the author has only a single mission to work with and can update this one by himself. (It is even worse, players who have the updated PK4 and the old i10n.PK4 will have a broken version and might not even be aware or able to see why. Users are "stupid" in the sense that they don't understand these things - they don't need to, but you have to plan ahead and make things as foolproof for them as possible)

* EDIT #2: You still haven't addressed that the current code does not allow for your scheme. Either all players use both files (engish + overlay), or foregn players are forced to manually download files instead of using the in-game downloader. So either we have more problems for users, or we need to change our code - with the freeze for v1.08 already long gone, this is a big no-no, plus, as I said, there isn't even someone who would do this work on the game downloader...

 

All in all you just have to trust me that I spent a lot of time devising this stuff, and looking ahead in the future, and bring a lot of experience with that stuff to the table. If you think that you can simple "come up" with something on the spot that is somehow "better", well, in a few years we can talk again, when everyone else suffers the consequences of the ill-planned decisions made now, just to please you.

 

Well, I would like to hear the translators' opinions on that. This system adds almost zero extra work for the translator. Instead of saving the modified .map file over top of the original, they save it in another location. I'm sure they can handle this extra "complication".

 

The current working system is automatic, your proposal is manual. If that is not "adding additional work", I don't know where to behing arguing with you.

 

If I'm wrong, let me know.

 

I already have, but you are not seeing it. It could be consider the "blind-eye" spot.

 

In any event, I am out of this "discussion" and anything pertaining to it. My technical knowledge is thrown out of the window by people who couldn't code themselves out of a paperbag just to justify their "feelings", while they proudly delcare they don't even care for what this produces (but HOW that is produced is completely important, of course).

 

There is nothing to be done for me in this point.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Well that's a great attitude Tels. Threatening mission authors is definitely the way to go. Let's not recognize mission authors as the fucking engine that keeps TDM alive, let's antagonize them and tell them that they're "lucky" that we don't fuck up their mission for fun because we can do "whatever" we want.

 

 

You know how missions authors can stop you from doing that? They can stop making fucking missions. Is that what you want? I'm getting sick and tired of watching you label mappers as "selfish" or "unreasonable" because they don't want to do things they way YOU think is best. We've already lost greebo and you've came close to getting Sotha to quit once already. Maybe if you keep antagonizing him you can finish the job.

 

In case you missed it, that was a FUCKING JOKE! (I guess labeling it 1m high red letters as JOKE would have been nec.) I said we are nice around here and don't do that. It is possible, but apart from the technical difficulties, it also tramples over people and we don't do that.

 

How you can even consider this being serious is beyond me.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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