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Conversion of ALL fan missions to i18n system (important)

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Just to summarize it again:

 

The current system with I18N.pl works - it could be a bit better (by not downloading original PK4s when only the translation changed, and by doing more automatic conversion stuff), but it works. There really isn't anything else to "fix" on it.

 

The "solution" from Springheel unnec. changes the system, makes it more complicated and resource-wasting, all the while not solving any real problem, just to make him "feel" good.

 

Never fix what isn't broken.


"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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Well, I would like to hear the translators' opinions on that. This system adds almost zero extra work for the translator. Instead of saving the modified .map file over top of the original, they save it in another location. I'm sure they can handle this extra "complication".

Well, I would like to hear the mapper's opinions on that. [...]

Nah, more seirously, that's - once again - an egg-and-chicken quarrel. Of course we can handle this extra complication. Just like we could handle modifying the source code of the mod to put the hardcoded strings into the dictionary.

BUT is it really their work? I like to mess around with stuff. That doesn't mean each and every translator does (plus, god knows I've paid the price for that, I still don't know how I could translate v1.0). Sure, it's a one-time handling. Doesn't change a thing.

 

Then again, I may be mistaken, but I am still under the impression that there will not be two versions of the missions, so it's I18N or bust (localization wise). If your files, and Sotha's, and anyone's basically, must remain unaltered... Again, too bad, we'll have to do without. Which is a damn shame, because you know full well your missions are of a high quality, but do we have a choice? Not really. Everyone's a loser, is all. 20% of all missions out of the list. And I guess I'll have to include The Alchemist too. It's Fidcal AND Sotha. And The Builder's Influence - Map: Railgun. Story: Springheel. I don't want a headache or a fistfight.

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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On topic again.

 

Here's something that may interest... erm... whomever.

 

The Sons of Baltona sports a few ugly things in English, here they are:

The BridgeportThieves Guild is called [The Order of] Claeptae AND Cleptae. I went with Cleptae. Someone should clean up.

Key Elizabeth - Should be Elizabeth's key

Diary Lord Nelson - Should be Diary of Lord Nelson, or Lord Nelson's Diary

The Chief of Staff is called Elizabeth AND Elisabeth. I went with Elizabeth. Someone should clean up.

"#str_20031" "\nDylan make sure -> Dylan, make sure - bad grammar is bad.

 

If I have to send those to someone, thanks in advance for telling me who exactly. Same thing if I should forward a clean english.lang to ECHELON. :)

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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* storage (your forgot that the storage is also used on every users computer, why should we waste it just to please you and alliate your irrational fears? Plus, our server might be big enough, but we have mirrors)

 

Again, since we're talking about less than 100 MB, this argument reeks of "I don't like your idea so I'll try to shoot it down any way I can".

 

By the way, glad to see you took another opportunity to call my concerns "irrational". That's very helpful.

 

I’ll skip the rest of your post since the entire point is ultimately moot.

 


 

 

I do want to deal with the issue that my concerns are “irrational” or an “ego trip” or just to “make me feel good” or whatever other bullshit Tels can come up with.

 

First, here are facts that no one has even attempted to dispute:

 

1. Mistakes can happen, even when someone is being careful.

2. Mistakes that happen during the translation process can result in errors in the way the mission appears in its original language.

3. The mission author is judged on how the mission plays in its original language, and ultimately bears responsibility for any errors or bugs in it, even if they were introduced by someone else.

 

These three facts are pretty clear cut. My own experience in this matter has demonstrated that #1 is not necessarily a rare occurrence, either. I’ve turned a mission over to be translated before and gotten back a broken mess. Perhaps that’s an isolated event that would never happen again, but I have no reason to think so.

 

And there’s one more thing.

 

I’ve already made some modifications to my local version of A Score to Settle, as I might one day want to release an updated version. If someone translates my mission and modifies the original pk4, then what happens? If I keep working on my local copy, I would overwrite the translation when I upload my new version. To avoid that, I would have to download a new translated version and manually merge all my changes (assuming I can remember what they are).

 

Additionally, as the wiki says:

 

Darkradiant currently does not support the dictionaries, so strings will look like "#str_07118" instead of the "OK".

 

That means that even if I download and merge my changes into the translated map, if I want to modify my objectives text in the objective editor, I can’t. Instead, I have to load up a text file, scan through the hundred or so lines to find the right one and modify it there. If I want to see what inventory name I gave something, rather than just click on it and look, I have to load up a separate text file and scan through the hundred lines to find the right number. And if I want to modify a readable, or check what it says? Say goodbye to the WYSYWIG editor; all I see there is "#str_07118". I have to edit the text in a regular text editor, without being able to see the font or how far the lines go before getting cut off.

 

Now, some people might not mind that. Some people might think it’s worth it. But to me, it’s an added complication that I don’t want to deal with. I don’t want to have to open a separate text editor to modify my objectives. I don’t want to alter readables and have to guess whether it goes off the page. And I don’t want to worry about whether my local copy of my own mission is the most up to date one that exists.

 

So given these facts, I don’t believe it is at all “irrational” or “unreasonable” or “selfish” or “ungrateful” or “being an asshole” (or any of the other ridiculous, antagonistic terms that have been thrown around) to map the way I prefer to map, and to ensure that I am judged only for the mistakes I make, not for those that might be made by someone else.

 

The fact that two of TDM’s most prominent mappers have raised concerns about this might suggest there is something there that is worth listening to. But no, instead, we get angry rebuttals, belittling, and a series of accusations thrown our way (let me be clear that this comes from only a vocal few-—most voices in this thread: Hyeron, RPGista, Grayman and Jaxa in particular, have been quite reasonable and deserve to be excluded from all this).

 

For a community that has been lamenting the lack of new missions this last year, such behaviour is nothing short of disgraceful.

 

 

 

(And one last time, since someone is bound to throw out this straw man again, NO ONE in this thread has said that their missions cannot be translated. Sotha and I BOTH gave permission for that. I have only one restriction (I’m not even sure Sotha had any). My mission can already be translated and saved as a different PK4 without any extra work. Yes, it will mean an extra 100 MB on a few servers somewhere, and if that’s a good enough reason not to translate it, then so be it. )

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Again, since we're talking about less than 100 MB, this argument reeks of "I don't like your idea so I'll try to shoot it down any way I can".

At the moment. I think that point isn't as moot as it "should" be. Take Dragon's Claw (it's a bad example though, but I just woke up and still have an ugly hangover from migraine, so bear with me). 102Mb in its EN version. Then the languages.lang are added, and it hops up to 103Mb. Then the mission has a map. Now it has (arbitrarily) 5 more - 1 per language. I'll take Thief's den's map as an example - that's 350Kb per map. Then there are the textures. It may not be much per se, but say your map takes place in a whole district and all streets are painstakingly named, posts are textured, etc... Of course it won't double the size of the I18N version, but it could add up very quickly. And as more missions are added and translated over time, things are going to get bigger and bigger. 10 such missions, and we're already in the Gb territory. :/

OTOH no one can say for sure how long it will take to become a problem, or even if it will ever become a problem. But not taking size into account looks a bit shortsighted. Just as taking it into account looks a bit paranoid (at this point). :)

 

1. Mistakes can happen, even when someone is being careful.

2. Mistakes that happen during the translation process can result in errors in the way the mission appears in its original language.

3. The mission author is judged on how the mission plays in its original language, and ultimately bears responsibility for any errors or bugs in it, even if they were introduced by someone else.

 

These three facts are pretty clear cut. My own experience in this matter has demonstrated that #1 is not necessarily a rare occurrence, either. I’ve turned a mission over to be translated before and gotten back a broken mess. Perhaps that’s an isolated event that would never happen again, but I have no reason to think so.

Of course there's no debating this. Just as you can't exactly say that a translator will never find a typo you overlooked or no one gave a f*ck about (see hereabove, Sons of Baltona: why are those still present? the mission has been out for a while now), or some game-breaking bug while he tests the mission.

Now, I won't say that’s an isolated event that will never happen again (sorry to copy paste, but it's easier). But I dare say it IS an isolated event that could happen again. Just as I dare say it IS isolated. Just as I dare say we're not talking crowdsourced translation. The missions ARE usually tested. It's in everyone's interest. So yeah, ECHELON may not FULLY test the missions. OTOH Tels's script should be foolproof apart from the GUI, so that's all he has to test - until he translates the mission proper. Then he tests the mission. In fact...

You know, you have yourself 5 rounds of free testing there. One per language. Nothing prevents giving it another go in English either. So yup. But nope. But yup, too. xD

 

I’ve already made some modifications to my local version of A Score to Settle, as I might one day want to release an updated version. If someone translates my mission and modifies the original pk4, then what happens? If I keep working on my local copy, I would overwrite the translation when I upload my new version. To avoid that, I would have to download a new translated version and manually merge all my changes (assuming I can remember what they are).

 

Additionally, as the wiki says:

 

That means that even if I download and merge my changes into the translated map, if I want to modify my objectives text in the objective editor, I can’t. Instead, I have to load up a text file, scan through the hundred or so lines to find the right one and modify it there. If I want to see what inventory name I gave something, rather than just click on it and look, I have to load up a separate text file and scan through the hundred lines to find the right number. And if I want to modify a readable, or check what it says? Say goodbye to the WYSYWIG editor; all I see there is "#str_07118". I have to edit the text in a regular text editor, without being able to see the font or how far the lines go before getting cut off.

 

Now, some people might not mind that. Some people might think it’s worth it. But to me, it’s an added complication that I don’t want to deal with. I don’t want to have to open a separate text editor to modify my objectives. I don’t want to alter readables and have to guess whether it goes off the page. And I don’t want to worry about whether my local copy of my own mission is the most up to date one that exists.

[...] I don’t believe it is at all “irrational” or “unreasonable” or “selfish” or “ungrateful” or “being an asshole”

That's an interesting one, if double-edged. You irratreasonfishatefulhole!

Nah, more seriously - and please bear in mind this is, again, a translator's POV - it IS indeed a tad selfish and... well, dangerous for you (for lack of proper vocabulary and coffee). I18N is a one-time process, we can agree on this one. Unless you're truly an arse, but I frankly don't think so. What you're saying here is this :

1. You don't care if we translate your missions but

2. You don't want your original files altered by us and

3. You won't run the script yourself so

4. We have to work on a copy but

5. You're actually altering an original, which usually implies

6. We're working on a sub-par and potentially buggy copy.

...

Wait, WHAT? I know you put time, sweat, blood, tears into your mission. I know the translation effort doesn't compare to that (though I don't think you'll say 1.0 wasn't another beast entirely). But that, there, is quite selfish. I can see why you don't want to be bothered with it, but you've just shown that it IS a necessity. Maybe not so much that you'll have to reluctantly participate, but that info up there is crucial. What I mean is, you don't want to have a hand in it, then fine. If the mod goes for a dual-mission system as discussed above though, then it is pretty much a requirement that you forward such info to the translators. It has implications. Should we translate A Score to Settle as it is now? Should we wait? If there are bugs, what happens when foreigners play the mission and stumble upon them, then come whining because - "bad luck" - they can understand English but would rather play the mission in their own language? Should we then tell them "yeah, there's an update, but only in the English version, please switch to that"? If one comes raging fully and calls you names because even though the translation is fine, it's buggy as f*ck and nothing ever works and you're a sloppy and incompetent piece of sh*t? (and those exist. Much as Darwin would loathe the simple thought of them still being part of the genome pool).

 

Again, I'm fine if you don't want to have a hand in the whole process per se, less so if it leads to a dead-end (though I won't hold any gripe against you, it'll just be a pity), but I'd be puzzled and I would start holding gripes if we're in a situation where we have the opportunity to translate your missions and are left in the dark about updates. Because if we can translate the missions, we'll want the updates out too. And ASAP. Just as we'll need such info ASAP.

 

Hopefully I'm not appearing as blunt, harsh and plain unfriendly, but it IS crucial. I just hope that, if it comes to that, finding a way to make it all a two-way communication road isn't too much to ask for. It would be quite unsettling AFAIAC, and even more so as this is a forum, and one that sports a PM system too. So communication is pretty much the basis of this place. It's not asking much, methinks, and it could - maybe it's a bad idea, but I'll still throw it around - allow the translators to add a note, a "known problems", a line in the GUI stating that "WARNING! AN UPDATE'S ON THE WAY, YOU MAY WANT TO SWITCH TO ENGLISH IF YOU UNDERSTAND IT" or something. And it's still the worst solution. If the original had been I18N ready, then it would have been a moot point. But you're as entitled to your POV as us to ours. It will remain a problem, at least until DR uses the dictionary and you can do it with all the modern comfort, I guess. And that's out of our hands. :)

 

The fact that two of TDM’s most prominent mappers have raised concerns about this might suggest there is something there that is worth listening to. But no, instead, we get angry rebuttals, belittling, and a series of accusations thrown our way (let me be clear that this comes from only a vocal few-—most voices in this thread: Hyeron, RPGista, Grayman and Jaxa in particular, have been quite reasonable and deserve to be excluded from all this).

For a community that has been lamenting the lack of new missions this last year, such behaviour is nothing short of disgraceful.

Why thank thee, I'm always under the impression that I'm way too harsh/cynical/both. ^^"

 

 

(And one last time, since someone is bound to throw out this straw man again, NO ONE in this thread has said that their missions cannot be translated. Sotha and I BOTH gave permission for that. I have only one restriction (I’m not even sure Sotha had any). My mission can already be translated and saved as a different PK4 without any extra work. Yes, it will mean an extra 100 MB on a few servers somewhere, and if that’s a good enough reason not to translate it, then so be it. )

See 1st point, I guess. Yup. But nope. Though, yup.

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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I’ve already made some modifications to my local version of A Score to Settle, as I might one day want to release an updated version. If someone translates my mission and modifies the original pk4, then what happens? If I keep working on my local copy, I would overwrite the translation when I upload my new version. To avoid that, I would have to download a new translated version and manually merge all my changes (assuming I can remember what they are).

 

I guess I'll never understand why some mappers are updating their missions with new features (they didn't have bugs after 1.00 release) months after release instead of making a whole new one. :blink: In my eyes there is only a few attention given if there's now A Score To Settle v.1.5 (instead of A Score To Settle Part 2), expecially after so many time. And yes, updating a mission, especially if other people had their finger in the pie, is allways a hassle. But thats also ehy echelon and hyeron had asked the mappers, who's mission is really really final.

 

I don't want to say your argument is invalid, it is TRUE! But you may want to think about what would reward your efforts the most: an updated mission with some new features or a whole new game experience in a completely new map (with the cool new features you've planned for the original mission instead).

 

A way to take the updated mission to an updated translated mission could be sending the text changes you've made in this mission to the ones who translated these in the original one, so they can compare the files and exactly see where the changes are made. There are external software which can scan texts and show the differences.

 

I personally really don't see what's the big deal here, but maybe I think too small and don't get the whole system and it's technical consequences as a whole. :D


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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A way to take the updated mission to an updated translated mission could be sending the text changes you've made in this mission to the ones who translated these in the original one, so they can compare the files and exactly see where the changes are made. There are external software which can scan texts and show the differences.

 

Well... Yes and no. The disadvantage of the "dual system" is that the whole shigamajig has to run through the WHOLE process for EVERY update. So we could see what's been added/altered, but we'd still need to wait for the update to come out (or request that Springheel or whomever forward it to the translators before release) to go back to "run I18N, and translate again". String order may be modified, new strings don't get their string number out of thin air... So it wouldn't be that much use. Or maybe I misunderstood you. :P

 

EDIT - Also, I realized that this is another valid question: updates - are they forwarded to the translators before release? Thoughts, Springheel? :)

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Yeah sorry, I apologize often for my english, np ^_^


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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Huh? Your english's quite fine.

Though I should have added that the translations aren't exclusively made of readables, so as far as the GUI is concerned, it's pointless - the I18N script has to take them out of the files, and that can only be done if we have the map files handy. So unfortunately, it wouldn't be sufficient.


"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Ah yes I see. :) What needs to be adressed in the map file itself? The item names?


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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If I'm not mistaken: that, plus objectives.


"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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Hm but that wouldn't hurt to change after an update, especially if it's only a bug fix update, would it? I mean that would take not more than 5 minutes, right? :huh:


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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That's a question for ECHELON. But it's still partly dependent on the extent of the update, too. If 20 items are added, 2 optional/secret objectives added, 4 existing objectives updates... In any case, 5 minutes is an underestimation (not a bad one where I'd rip your throat, but sill an underestimation ^^).

 

That's enough for copypasting (and even then it depends on the size of the mission, the number of readables, and whatever doesn't come to mind right off the bat), but if there's been an update, you still have to compare both versions, change what has to be changed, and so forth. Then there may be new textures and whatnot.

 

That's where the communication would be very, very, VERY handy. At least it would allow the translators to get the changes faster and in a more efficient manner. Even a bug fix has implications: the original pk4 being untouched, the whole process still has to be repeated, string numbering still has to be checked, manual outing of strings to the .lang still has to happen, then if anything went wrong the numbering has to be repaired one way or another, either by copypasting the translated strings into the new files, or the old files being renumbered. No idea what happens in such a case though.

 

Maybe none of these even happens at all, and a bugfix update implies strictly nothing.

 

That's one for Tels.

 

Too many factors, too few examples. I'm not a mapper, I'm not a coder, so I can't say how much of a timewaster the switch to I18N can be - especially regarding updates. All I can say is, from a translator POV, it IS a waste of time and resources. Just as it probably is for the mapper. I guess the ideal way of handling it would be to check all possibilities in real situations (pure bugfixes, updates, everything), then say "okay, X is objectively being a d*ck and wastes Y's time in Z case", X and Y being (interchangeably) mapper and translator, and Z being whatever situation we're talking about. And even then, it would require X to accept it, comply, change his ways. Not THAT likely to happen unless the world suddenly becomes a carebear utopia overnight. Everyone and their neighbour likes their comfort zone, which is perfectly understandable. :)

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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It is paradoxical, to say the least, to call Springheel of all people, "selfish", or somehow imply there is resistance from him or any mapper against making the missions more accessible to people. I know thats not the intention here (probably just the way the topic and the tone evolved) but this type of personnal adressing should stop, as people here are only voicing general concerns that applies for everyone and also the mod, not just themselves.

 

The logistical problems are real, and perhaps you guys are missing most of points raised. None of this should keep translators from doing their work on parallel. The technical issues have to be solved however, of the kind Springheel just described. If you place an item such as a key on your map, it comes with a coded string name. Changing the name, as you most of the times must, and you'll get items that are automaticly translated (say, a corpse) and others that are still in english, in game. Without subtitles, english speech cant be translated, noone would be able to finish Winter Harvest, or understand clues and objectives in several missions, including A Score to Settle. Without going inside Dark Radiant and carefully edit readables, text WILL get cut, maybe even entire pages. So one thing is to translate the hard text in txt form, but some of these issues have to be addressed by translators, others in maybe a technical solution, I dont know much about it so Im keeping my opinions to a minimum. All must be done in accordance to the mappers wishes, I believe.

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Yeah, maybe selfish wasn't the word (don't know any other one that fits though, if you can enlighten me, do so). I'm sorry if it looked personal - it had more to do with the situation than the person (hopefully that much is obvious when the post is read, otherwise feel free to club me to death ^^"). My point was that, if anything happens to an original mission, then it is quite important that all people involved one way or another - that is, mapper (well D'UH), translator, maybe coder, have to know beforehand.

Edited by Hyeron

"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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There's so much theoreticly stuff going on here, I can't believe it all will be necessary. :blink:

Are there really that much updates planned to existing missions - I mean in the future. Look at the updates to the maps in the past. How frequently they were and how big they were.

 

I still cannot believe all the fury and discussions going on. It could be all the "what could happen if..." isn't necessary - but it could be also that I am just too stupid to understand everything. I don't mind if you nodded your head on the latter :P

Meh.. I'll shut up and let the grown ups discuss this - I'm sure you'll make the right decision. -_-

*crawls back into its tiny, dark cave making TDM stuff silently when not sleeping loudly*

 

PS: You better PM all the further hatred going on, because when I type "dark mod translation" into google, this thread here's what shows up ;)


"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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I wonder is someone with admin powers could remove all the hatred posts here. Even better, maybe delete the whole thread and restart it with valid, objective non-insulting summary of the arguments and suggestions. In the end, the findings of this thread were, ultimately, quite meager. Nothing was won, and everything was lost. Everything, for me, being the nice, respecting and polite atmosphere of this community. :.(


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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I wonder is someone with admin powers could remove all the hatred posts here. Even better, maybe delete the whole thread and restart it with valid, objective non-insulting summary of the arguments and suggestions. In the end, the findings of this thread were, ultimately, quite meager. Nothing was won, and everything was lost. Everything, for me, being the nice, respecting and polite atmosphere of this community. :.(

 

Christ.

 

You're such a fucking weaselly little drip, dude. You make some good FMs and extra little innovations -- they appeal to me in the top two as far as that goes...

 

But you are in many other ways such a fucking weaselly little drip.

 

If you are sorry for telling Tels to "fuck off" (in a weaselly way, btw), then tell him so.

 

Calling for this lets-bury-everything-under-the-rug is so childish. This all happened. Much was said. Apparently much of it needed to be said. Pretending it didn't happen is just so amazingly stupid...

 

So stupid that I'll bet you it'll happen.

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Your post is an excellent example of the posts that should be removed. It brings nothing to the table and is loaded with a childish attack towards another person. I, myself, could not have devised a better example.

 

Please, humor me and tell me what good is in storing all this stuff? I wonder if you are able to do it without insulting me.

 

All this technology, the internet, yet what does it facilitate? The decay of social interaction: no ordinary person would shout such a thing towards a stranger who would stand in the same physical location. Remember, it is easy to be a jerk, yet it is an interesting challenge to be nice.


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Wow people are getting their emotional buttons pushed...

 

Anyway I just thought I'd put my thoughts in for the record.

 

First off, doing anything with an FM is a very personal thing for a mapper... So my gut feeling is, when a mapper says something about their own map, that trumps most things (not talking about general mechanics of the game). Then my feeling towards Spring's suggestion are, this is how he'd like his FMs treated, but not necessarily a general method for every FM. I personally was fine when the French & Russian translations of my FM simply re-released new .pk4s for them. I felt like they need to do what they need to do to make a good translation, and it's only for those communities anyway. And I trusted that they weren't going to screw with the plot or game because it was (IMHO) a good plot, and why would they want to? Also I could imagine (from doing translation work of my own) that somethings might not translate very well at all or very awkwardly in the target language, and a different phrase in the foreign language would capture the idea so much better... I'm flexible enough to understand it's better to use that other phrase.

 

And I didn't worry about mistakes because then, all the worse for the poor non-English speakers (a burden I'm sure they're all well familiar with)... Take some English classes and you can play it in the original (a story is almost always best in its original language anyway) & save yourself from that risk.

 

All that said, I do get very touchy when people do want to touch my FM. E.g., Biker is always so enthusiastic to work on everybody's FMs, lol, but except for a few special cases (like taking a custom asset, or if it's already a group project like a campaign or the Chain Project), I normally don't want anybody working on my FM because I want total ownership over it, even if it's to the FM's detriment. I'd rather it be all my own work. So I totally understand where Spring is coming from on that point. I just personally distinguish that from what translators are trying to do, opening the game to other languages, and doing what they need to do, even at the risk of muffing something up (again, so much the worse for non-English speakers...).

 

I guess my feeling is, there's just the one "authorized" version that I crafted if you want the real experience. Then there are these translation versions I'll tolerate to bring happiness to foreigners, but ... Take them at your own risk. They may not capture what I tried to create, but hopefully they get very close. But I can see how Spring might want to preserve his original pk4 even with translations... And since it's his map, I'm fine with letting him have that option.

 

Then that makes me think, if Spring or Spring & Sotha are really the only one or two people really wanting this other method, but other people like myself were happy with FM re-releases, then this is a lot of passionate discussion for maybe not that many FMs, if most mappers are on my side on it...

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What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Christ.

 

You're such a fucking weaselly little drip, dude. You make some good FMs and extra little innovations -- they appeal to me in the top two as far as that goes...

 

But you are in many other ways such a fucking weaselly little drip.

 

If you are sorry for telling Tels to "fuck off" (in a weaselly way, btw), then tell him so.

 

Calling for this lets-bury-everything-under-the-rug is so childish. This all happened. Much was said. Apparently much of it needed to be said. Pretending it didn't happen is just so amazingly stupid...

 

So stupid that I'll bet you it'll happen.

Not sure if troll. Given the content of other posts, will do as though not troll.

 

Look buddy, people have egos (and it takes an ego to create a game - and yes, TDM is more a game than a mod), words can be harsher than one wants them to be, opinions can have people antagonize each other, and it's not always easy to look past them. You said it yourself: the I18N work is rather important. BUT.

 

But can we really have a sane debate among the name-calling? It's hard enough as it is to pick wheat from chaff, see what can be an issue, see what isn't one, see what is worthy of debate and what isn't - e.g. server space and bandwidth, I for one have a hard time seeing how bad it could/can/will turn, and as Sotha says, the Internet makes it so much harder.

 

Much as I disagree on Springheel's views (and Sotha's maybe, but Sotha's much less vocal, so I'll usually talk about Springheel here, he's kind of the voice of the concerned mappers :)), he still raises valid points, but those bring other questions into the mix (re: updates, for example).

 

Just as calling names is indeed easier than holding a sane conversation, as you just proved yourself by barging in and calling Sotha a fucking weaselly little drip.

 

I'mall for following Sotha's ideas. There are a few valid (or not so valid) points raised by both parties, and those would best be looked at in a more cool-headed way. Still, it requires picking those ideas among sometimes harsh words, be they wanted or not - an interpretation can lead to more misunderstanding, and some participants - me included - not mastering English as much as they'd like to doesn't help either.

 

If Sotha's a fucking weaselly little drip, then everyone in this discussion pretty much is, because you can see many, many posts as trying to undermine the other party's credibility with insults and whatnot.

 

Or maybe you're a fucking weaselly little drip and trying to send the whole discussion to oblivion... Who knows. :3

 

In any case, we all take it a bit too personally, no matter what: it's work, sometimes exhausting, boring, depressing work. And people don't like it when their work is depreciated, no matter in which manner.

 

If someone has the ability to, and is willing to do so, I say go for Sotha's idea, maybe then we can all cool down and discuss what has to be discussed. :P

 

Also, just read your answer, demagogue. I tend to think that, if worst comes to worst, then we (translators) should forget about Springheel and Sotha's missions. Still, it would be a pity. And the two of them count for 20% of all released missions, roughly (source: ctrl-f on http://www.thedarkmod.com/missions/). Their voice deserves to be heard, it's not like Noob Nooberton had come and said "don't touch my missions you pricks!" (and even then who are we to forbid him from it). We're talking two MAJOR mappers, agreeing to have their missions translated but with a (small, at first) restriction - which unfortunately can lead to several and varied problems - some of them theoretical at the moment, some others quite tangible and worthy of debate.

 

Anyway. It is indeed a lot of passionate discussion (and most of it interesting when you can waddle past some name-calling and chit-chat). I think the main problem is, we're all TOO passionate. xD


"Lie to a liar, for lies are his coin; Steal from a thief, for that is easy; lay a trap for a trickster and catch him at first attempt, but beware of an honest man"

- Arab proverb

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@ Monyana: If you want to stay, you'd better work hard to show me that you're not just Aida/Aprilsister/Bluesky back under a different name.

 

edit: Here's a tip. Try coming back with a new name and NOT being an ass-hat. Then I might not have a reason to check your IP.

 

Until then, bye-bye for the what, fifth time now? :rolleyes:

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A lot of news.

First: the i10n.pk4 now is not more standalone for "technical" reasons. Now we're doing converted mission plus i10n.

 

Here's all the converted missions:

 

http://www.bloodgate...m/pub/pk4/i18n/

 

until now it is converted:

-awaiting the storm

-living expensives

-mad's mountain

-pandora's box

-son's of baltona

-special delivery

-swing

-the parcel

-thieves

-too late

-trapped

-winter harvest

 

work in progress:

-chalice of the kings

-thief's den

-training mission

 

 

IMPORTANT: you not want your missions converted? write here "i don't want my mission converted".

Edited by ECHELON

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