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Kvorning

'Thief' & 'E3 2013' official information, articles & interviews

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Oh, another observation that could go on the OP list-- leaning is context sensitive. You cannot lean anywhere you want; only in predetermined areas

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"I just hope the missions don't devolve into nonsensical action sequences just because the developers want to show off the fancy flame animations in the next generation."

 

 

I'm with him on that one. Meaningless sequences like in Dead Space, has always bothered me. Like when Ellie gets taken hostage, but she still has time to change outfit...

 

There's the problem with reviews however. They tend to be more disingenuous than what they reviewed. Getting the most negative perspective presented of a subject, when it's supposed to be delivered in an objective manner, prevents the readers from getting any actual information. Though critics can go both ways, their personal perception will always hinder their ability to be neutral on the matter.

 

You have a point too Springheel. What we've read, from guests, mods or devs, it's all at least written with a subconscious lean in their preferred direction. We just have to look at what we can see for ourselves and use our own moderation on the matter, before jumping to conclusions =)

 

Edit: Sure will add contextual leaning to the list, do you have link for the source?

Edited by Kvorning

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  • quote on peeking: "Peeking ... is contextual (you can't do it around a bush for example) but offers a great deal of flexibility; you can shimmy up and down the side of whatever the object is, can pull in or lean further out, etc."

http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141768

 

My guess about _why_ you can't do it around a bush? Because the hands wouldn't look right.

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Wow now THAT is a nice summery "Chade" has made! I'll link to the thread as well :)

 

I like peaking in some games where they've really aced the feel of it, so it doesn't feel cumbersome, but I don't see why both leaning and peaking wouldn't be an option. Maybe along the line they add it, as it's a fairly simple, but very useful mechanic. It's all about integrating AND getting it to work of course.

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Waking up unconscious guards was a feature in Splinter Cell 2 or 3. It was quite a good one, because it dimishes the sense of knocking out everyone in the map if you don't have the patience to hide their bodies. This would be a good addition for TDM, too, although difficult to implement as far as I've read.

 

Being only able to use rope arrows in designated spots isn't a big deal for me. Sure, it destroyes a bit of immersion, but the places you can use them is limited in TDM, too (wood only) as other things are (you can only climb pipes or vine that are made climbable by the mapper etc.).

 

They seam to try to appeal to both the classic Thief gamers as well as the COD-kiddies out there. I farely doubt this can work pretty well. They should really decide if they are going to make a stealth game or an action game with some stealth mechanics thrown in.

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I don't see why both leaning and peaking wouldn't be an option

 

What is the difference between leaning and peeking?

 

it dimishes the sense of knocking out everyone in the map if you don't have the patience to hide their bodies. This would be a good addition for TDM, too, although difficult to implement as far as I've read.

 

Technical difficulties aside, I remain unconvinced it would be a good addition. In gameplay terms, what does it offer you that the current set-up doesn't? Guards already go into full alert when they find a body. Having them wake up the KO'd guard doesn't seem like it would add that much....at best it's a nice bit of colour, but if the act of waking up a guard makes the player's life more difficult, won't that just encourage him to kill guards instead?

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Well you know, games as mentioned Splinter Cell, when you are in cover you can peak up behind cover, or around corners, without exposing your full body. You're locked to the object you're behind.

 

While you gents at TDM have given the freedom to lean freely, which honestly works better and is more useful in, than in any other game I've tried. Most games which have free leaning, either makes it feel "sketchy" or useless.

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Well you know, games as mentioned Splinter Cell, when you are in cover you can peak up behind cover, or around corners, without exposing your full body. You're locked to the object you're behind.

 

Ah, I've never encountered that before. How does that work? Do you have to hold a button to enter "peek mode" or something? How do you "unlock" yourself?

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Last Splinter Cell I played was Conviction which was a very mixed experience, but one thing they did have going was the cover system. You basically just pressed a key when near a wall, box or whatever, and it would put a magnetic lock to your character and the object.

 

You could walk/crouch/sneak along the object, and if you pressed move past that point, your character would "peak" out or over. You could use the cover button to make your character run to next cover, if it was within reasonable range, otherwise you'd let the magnetic effect go. It was probably the most memorable thing about the game. =P

 

(Side note, almost everything was "toggle" in Conviction, which made it a pain to play. It would even remember sprint, crouch, cover and aim toggles, even though they conflicted each other. Made the game too frustrating for to play again.)

 

The article there is very well described indeed, a bit jealous of that guy :)

Edited by Kvorning

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In the earlier Splinter Cell's you could only use the cover mechanism without your weapon drawn. But as it is a third person game you don't need the leaning there. With the weapon drawn, you look directly over the shoulder of your character, and you could change the side you hold the weapon on depending of the side of a wall you were on.

 

Anyways, you were never in full cover when shooting around corners, which makes it quite good.

 

The cover system used by many new games is a nice feature for action games, but doesn't make much sense in stealth games imho.

 

Technical difficulties aside, I remain unconvinced it would be a good addition. In gameplay terms, what does it offer you that the current set-up doesn't? Guards already go into full alert when they find a body. Having them wake up the KO'd guard doesn't seem like it would add that much....at best it's a nice bit of colour, but if the act of waking up a guard makes the player's life more difficult, won't that just encourage him to kill guards instead?

A more alerted ai doesn't have a high impact on gameplay. The ai is only a bit more aware and searches for a while. If the ai knocked out can be woken up again, the knockout can become useless if you don't hide the body, what would give the whole hiding mechanism a higher meaning.

 

In said game Splinter Cell you could also just kill the ai. But as aiming was difficult and ammo was short, knocking out a guard was in most cases the better oppotunity. TDM could use the same mechanisms: Make ammo more scarse and more expensive, make it more difficult to aim with the bow at high ranges (this was discussed before) and make killing *louder* with a death scream or so..

 

In addition, killing an ai leaves blood, which the player would have to invest a water arrow into to remove it (although I never experienced a guard becoming suspicious due to blood trails, but maybe because I don't kill that often).

 

So knocking out a guard would still be the more cleaner version, while killing the guard may be easier. I guess this is what the ko vs. kill - mechanism in stealth games is about. With this working in a good way, there would be no needs for no kill objectives or so.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

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A more alerted ai doesn't have a high impact on gameplay. The ai is only a bit more aware and searches for a while.

 

I don't agree with that at all. Guards who find a body go into alert_idle mode after they're done searching, which means their weapon is out, their acuity is higher and they can't be blackjacked as easily (helmeted guards not at all). Not only that, but they'll warn any friends they pass who might not have seen the body, putting them into alert_idle mode as well. I think that's a pretty significant penalty.

 

If the ai knocked out can be woken up again, the knockout can become useless if you don't hide the body, what would give the whole hiding mechanism a higher meaning

 

He can blackjack the guard quietly, and then take out his sword and kill him, if that means not having to worry about the same guard showing up later.

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I don't wanted to say that the reaction of the ai isn't a penalty at all. But for me the main purpose of taking out a guard whether by killing or KO'ing is that I don't have to bother with him again later on. So this is more about if the penalty is high enough or could be higher. I guess this is a matter of taste.

Killing already is louder, but he doesn't have to kill him first. He can blackjack the guard quietly, and then take out his sword and kill him, if that means not having to worry about the same guard showing up later.

What still leaves the blood. And if the player drags the body somewhere were he or hs blood could not be found, killing becomes senseless.

 

Anyways. I just wanted to say that this mechanism worked pretty well in the SC games (and also added a lot to immersion) and that it would be a cool addition IMHO. So for me having this in the new thief game is on the pro side.

 

But as said. It's a matter of taste.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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But for me the main purpose of taking out a guard whether by killing or KO'ing is that I don't have to bother with him again later on.

 

Certainly. But if you knew that you might have to bother with him later on if you KO'd him, but wouldn't have to if you killed him, wouldn't you be encouraged to kill him? If you kill him right where you dump him, there's no need to clean up any blood (if AI find him it won't matter).

 

While I agree it would be cool and immersive to see it happen, I still haven't heard a good argument for how it will improve gameplay (that's not targetted at you specifically, but this topic comes up a lot). And while the initial "wake-up" would be immersive, would it be immersive to see that same guard just go back to his patrol like nothing happened? Possibly without his weapon? (which the player could have dumped anywhere)

 

I'm willing to be convinced...I'm going to be VERY curious to see how they implement this in T4.

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I'm very curious about the "alert levels " that were briefly mentioned in the videos. Like you say, when someone wakes up from a knockout, all the guards in the area should immediately go in an alert state, they won't just shake after a bit. Once an intruder is "confirmed", they shouldn't just go "Probably just the wind..." :P

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"E3 is chaos. In its worst moments, it’s a swirling maelstrom of poor planning and slip-sliding schedules – a thumping videogame Valhalla that feels like it was designed with techno-ravers and cosplayers in mind, not journalists.

 

A review that starts like that is not worth reading, as the guy who wrote it doesn't have the journalistic integrity, which he insinuates he's earned :) He throws away objectivity in first line, and all credibility along with it.

Edited by Kvorning

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"E3 is chaos. In its worst moments, it’s a swirling maelstrom of poor planning and slip-sliding schedules – a thumping videogame Valhalla that feels like it was designed with techno-ravers and cosplayers in mind, not journalists.

 

Really? RPS is perhaps one of the most trustworthy sites out there and having been to events like this, his description is BANG ON ACCURATE. His review is pretty balanced too, it's not hating on the game at all but comparing his experience to Eidos 'claims'. I think Eidos is making the mistake of what they want the game to be vs. what it actually is in its current state.

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A review that starts like that is not worth reading, as the guy who wrote it doesn't have the journalistic integrity,

 

Because he starts the article with some flavour text? Really?

 

RPS has written about TDM several times and has always been quite fair and accurate, IMO. I'm more inclined to trust his opinion than people hand-picked by EM from their own forums.

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He's not supposed to air his personal opinions, if he wants to write factual news. It's supposed to be the reader who gets an opinion, based on accurate information. Second hand info will always be a blurred view, but the more the writer gets involved in pushing the readers in his own direction, the less of the full picture we actually get.

 

We need to hear the good, the bad and as much of both as possible. We can't use it, if all we see is what he prefers.

 

Here's the thing though: He could be 'bang on accurate' or he could be completely wrong. I won't be able to know, as he wasn't objective. I'll have to read other articles to see how accurate he was.

Edited by Kvorning

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He's not supposed to air his personal opinions, if he wants to write factual news.

 

:huh:

 

It's a review of a personal gameplay experience. By definition, it's going to include personal opinions.

 

He could be 'bang on accurate' or he could be completely wrong. I won't be able to know, as he wasn't objective. I'll have to read other articles to see how accurate he was.

 

That's true of any article you read on the subject, isn't it? Even if you could find a perfectly "objective" article, you'd have no way of knowing it was. All we can do is take the overall consensus from multiple, credible sources.

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