Having trouble with blackjacking? AI seem really hard? (Video)

[Albert]

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Edited March 31, 2020 by Albert

[IHaveReturned]

Guards wearing helmets are a mapper's strategic choice, not something mandated by Dark Mod.

True, and that is what makes it a problematic criticism. However, the obviously increased number of guard types with head protection available to those mappers is a factor, and it has clearly changed the dynamic from LGS version of things.

 

It would be good to have some numbers on this, devs. How many guard types come with head protection in TDM, versus the total variety?

Thief 2 had...one? Two?

 

They physically protect the wearer, as you would expect, but even then, most helmets allow for a clean KO, unless its one that completely covers the head and neck area. Those special cases can still be overcome in a number of ways, sneaking past, gas arrows, causing noise with noise arrows or throwing stuff around to distract them, heck, you can even KO people by hitting them with heavy objects. So, there are plenty of opportunities to explore in the game, which are often more surprising and fun than the usual route.

I have never subscribed to the logic that a problem isn't a problem just because you can work around it. I'm not about to start now.

 

If KOing becomes too easy, then players can simply waltz around and clear levels with impunity, which isn't especially fun.

You mean like in the games you and your collective userbase adore to the point of making and playing this game?

 

Well, it suddenly stands clear to me to just what an extent TDM was made for uber-veterans. I wonder i that will become a problem now that it is going increasingly mainstream. I did feel there was something wrong with a veteran ghoster like myself having to put TDM away because it got frustrating. I thought it was just me being less skilled than I thought, but apparently not.

Edited October 12, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[Xarg]

I don't mean to be antagonistic, but if you're ghosting, shouldn't you be avoiding interacting with the guards in any fashion at all, let alone putting all of them to sleep with the blackjack? Expanding on that thought, in what universe does it make sense to wear body armour but leave your head totally bare for said blackjack to come into contact with every night? How do any guards without helmets even have jobs still?

 

I think I understand the gist of what you're saying - but it seems to me that you're arguing in favour of something that doesn't make much sense, simply because "that's how it always was". You can already take them out in 1 hit with

 

- broadhead to the face

- rope arrow (has this been fixed?)

- gas arrow

- mine

- dropping a box on their head

- hitting the neck with the blackjack if they have a helmet on, other than the elite guard with the full helmet.

- fire arrow

- sword to the face in the dark

 

do you really need to be able to K.O. all of them as well? If ghosting came about at least partially because the AI was too easy and people wanted a challenge, why aren't you happy the AI is a challenge at last? I am genuinely puzzled you want the AI to be 5 second slideshows of speech and animation before you knock them out, to then go around an empty level to meet the loot objective.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Xarg

[AluminumHaste]

You mean like in the games you and your collective userbase adore to the point of making and playing this game?

 

I did feel there was something wrong with a veteran ghoster like myself having to put TDM away because it just got frustrating. I thought it was just me being less skilled than I thought, but apparently not.

 

We love the original games like you say, but there were lots of issues with AI, one being it was too easy to KO them. This has been addressed. Like seriously I could KO an AI by hitting his big toe...... That takes no skill to exploit.

 

The Thief series, while amazing, have become incredibly easy with all the limitations of the AI and engine. Now it's more realistic yet still quite easy to pull off.

You just have to get used to it, it will take time.

 

There are many skills that can be carried over from the Thief series, however blackjacking is not one of them. It's a different implementation that will have to be learned all over again, before you can consider yourself a TDM veteran.

 

Good luck.

[Springheel]

Pretty sure they can be KOd that way.

[IHaveReturned]

I don't mean to be antagonistic, but if you're ghosting, shouldn't you be avoiding interacting with the guards in any fashion at all, let alone putting all of them to sleep with the blackjack?

No no, of course not. The implication was that I was so good with blackjacking that even on Expert it wouldn't be particularly interesting, like any self-respecting Thief veteran. Yet still TDM made me feel like a total noob. EM thinks LGS!Thief is too hard, but TDM reduces regular veterans like myself to noobhood with its increased difficulty. Feels ever so slightly like I'm not part of the target audience, which really makes no sense. When this is done by violating the spirit of classic Thief gameplay on top (greater helmet frequency), it looks even worse.

 

Expanding on that thought, in what universe does it make sense to wear body armour but leave your head totally bare for said blackjack to come into contact with every night? How do any guards without helmets even have jobs still?

And yet we love Thief. All gameplay requires suspension of disbelief -especially the parts that enable you to do things that are next to impossible in real life.

 

Besides, in a realistic setting, the protagonist would then have swung his blackjack horizontally or with a stabbing motion to compensate, rather than swing vertically with such skill as to connect exactly at the sweet spot at the back of the neck. You can't have it both ways.

 

I think I understand the gist of what you're saying - but it seems to me that you're arguing in favour of something that doesn't make much sense, simply because "that's how it always was".

Pretty much. Call me crazy but I thought that was the idea behind the entire project. Thief with modern visuals and technical sophistication. Not the new hot thing for FM veterans having gone bored after a decade of playing.

 

do you really need to be able to K.O. all of them as well? If ghosting came about at least partially because the AI was too easy and people wanted a challenge, why aren't you happy the AI is a challenge at last? I am genuinely puzzled you want the AI to be 5 second slideshows of speech and animation before you knock them out, to then go around an empty level to meet the loot objective.

Good question. I guess it is the same purism that has reamed EM for daring mess with the formula. Coupled with sucking when I feel I shouldn't. Struggling with Easy for regular play just to experience the mission, as opposed to choosing ghosting for challenge.

 

We love the original games like you say, but there were lots of issues with AI, one being it was too easy to KO them. This has been addressed. Like seriously I could KO an AI by hitting his big toe......

Sure, and removing that was a good thing, for it strained suspension of disbelief, well worth the added difficulty IMO. But you also increased their vision cone considerably, gave them swiveling heads, head protection, torches, and less delay between alertness and the now increased, Haunt-level aggression (at least last I played). It adds up. All levels I have played felt smaller and more cramped too, giving me less room to flee, but I don't know what limitations exist to the engine, so I admit that one could just be a matter of the levels played.

Edited October 12, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[AluminumHaste]

Sure, and removing that was a good thing, for it strained suspension of disbelief, well worth the added difficulty IMO. But you also increased their vision cone considerably, gave them swiveling heads, head protection, torches, and less delay between alertness and aggression (at least last I played). It adds up. All levels I have played felt smaller and more cramped too, giving me less room to flee, but I don't know what limitations exist to the engine, so I admit that one could just be a matter of the levels played.

 

Yes that's all true, they are a lot more difficult. But a lot of that is going to be down to learning new ways to exploit the AI. As I said in my last post, I still manage to play this game on Expert, with the AI vision slider set to Challenging/Hardcore, and yet I still manage to KO almost every single AI in the level.

You can still get away from an AI, for example by climbing up on crates. But TDM AI will throw rocks at you if they can still see you, but can't get to you. So instead of the T1/2 AI who would just yell at you and stand there, now you have a more believable scenario.

 

All I'm getting from your posts is that you were good at Thief 1/2, so much so that the game was easy even on the most difficult setting. And now you are playing a similar game, yet find your T1/2 skills to be inadequate in dealing with the new challenges, and seem to think that's a bad thing.

[IHaveReturned]

You are a Contributor (whatever that is), though. Being told by a speedrunner that a game is easy on its hardest setting isn't convincing. I actually got to thinking about this because of my involvement with the Greenlight thread. TDM going mainstream, I worry that it will be considered too hard, even for Thief players. And while I am the first to support more challenging, niche-based games, this occurring not because of evolution of existing mechanics, but because of added features clashing with traditional ones, it becomes hard to support.

To be even more specific, the new realistic AI is enough IMO. Torches was pushing it. Helmets are just broken.

 

As for your assessment, you are absolutely right. I am an equal opportunity purist. If EM doesn't get to make NuThief too easy without me speaking up, TDM doesn't get to be too hard either.

 

However, I now understand it was deliberate, so there isn't much arguing with it. *shrugs*

Edited October 12, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[AluminumHaste]

A Contributor was an early status given to people who wanted to help with the mod, but were not yet full team members yet. I've never made it to Team Member because I guess I haven't done enough to help.

 

I've contributed to the mod with sounds, textures and some gui changes. Along with lots of Beta testing and bug reporting.

Also almost all the screenshots you see of TDM on the interwebs are ones I took. Including around half (don't know exact amount) of the mission preview shots in the in-game downloader, biker and nob did the rest. (maybe some others, can't remember).

So being a Contributor does not make me a better player of TDM. I got this good because I've played it and learned how the mechanics work, and learned how to exploit said mechanics.

[AluminumHaste]

added features clashing with traditional ones, it becomes hard to support.

To be even more specific, the new realistic AI is enough IMO. Torches was pushing it. Helmets are just broken.

 

 

Don't forget, in Thief there were helmeted guards that couldn't be blackjacked, and in fan missions, there were guards carrying lanterns and such. So the precedent is there.

[IHaveReturned]

There were a handful of them in Thief 2. In fact, I can only remember a couple from the Truart mansion, excuding oddities like Cavador and the golden child. Nothing like the state of the TDM missions I have played. Not to mention, these were the half-blind, managably aggressive LGS guards. Using FMs for precedent is just part of the same "we are making this for the TTLG crowd" mentality I disagree with.

 

But again, I get it. Have enough pride in your work to stand by Broken Glass' vision. No need to convince the naysayers. You don't want to sound like an EM dev.

[Springheel]

It would be good to have some numbers on this, devs. How many guard types come with head protection in TDM, versus the total variety?

Thief 2 had...one? Two?

 

Depends what you mean by "head protection". There are only two guard helmets that completely protect the wearer from KOs, and they are only used in a handful of missions. The other helmets don't make them immune; it only requires you to hit from behind. In Tears of St. Lucia, no guards have helmets, so how often they're used varies from mission to mission. Mappers have several dozen heads to choose from, and about 2/3s do not have helmets.

 

Blackjacking used to be much more finnicky, but we adjusted it in version 1.03 or 1.04. Since then we haven't heard many complaints, although obviously there's a learning curve, like anything else that's new. I still would like to solve the "hitting things above your head" issue, but personally, I'm pretty happy with the way the rest of the system works.

[grayman]

Hell, I was a member, then a Contributor, and now I'm a Developer.

 

In no way does that make me an expert at anything regarding gameplay.

 

I hate jumping (couldn't complete one mission because of it), but I'm not going to complain about it. I make maps, too, and I make jumping a bit easier, so that at least I can test the mission. That's my response. I won't take "difficult jumping" away from others who love it, and they'll prolly think jumping in my missions is too easy. Can't have everything.

 

I suck at combat, but I'm not going to complain about it. If a guard comes at me with a sword, I usually flee for higher ground. But that doesn't make me want combat made easier; I have my own workaround, and many people love it the way it is, and I wouldn't want to take it away from them. Besides, it's a stealth game, and designing a mission for combat is probably less important than designing it for sneaking around.

 

I hate lockpicking. Can't stand missions that are full of locked doors that take 3 or 4 lockpick stages each to get the damn things open. But that's mostly a map author thing, which I have no control over. So--apart from the occasional "really important" door, the doors in my missions are relatively easy to pick, and many are not locked at all. I'm not going to complain about how hard TDM lockpicking is, because I'm sure it's a cakewalk for lots of players.

 

Blackjacking is the only real skill I've ever mastered, and it took a while to get it right. While it might be hard for some people, and too easy for others, I found the bowl of porridge that's just right. I consider AI just part of the overall puzzle. Is there a way to ghost past? Is there a way to distract? Should I drop a mine? Is killing allowed? Is KO'ing even allowed? Do I have a gas arrow? Flashbomb? Flashmine? A broadhead to the face? Fly over him using a rope arrow? Is this guy hard to get past? Is he easy? Each situation is a puzzle to solve, and I don't feel I need to blackjack everyone, and thus require that there be no headgear in the game to allow me to do so.

 

So those are my skills (or non-skills in some cases). I don't believe I've ever complained about any aspect of TDM's gameplay. (And I swear on a stack of courtroom bibles that I've never slipped anything into the code to make my life easier. )

 

Everything's a bell curve, so TDM's going to be tough for some, easy for others. All things considered, TDM hits the sweet spot for most. It has a few sliders available for tuning AI behavior, combat, ease of lockpicking, etc., so there were some early design decisions made to accommodate different levels of player skill. In 1.08, people were complaining that the AI couldn't see well. Others complained that they had 10/10 vision. It was tough getting a consensus. Prior to 1.08, AI were less likely to notice you in general, but 2.00 toughened things up a bit, so visibility became more of an issue.) Can't please everyone with a single setting, so 2.00 lets you change how well AI see you.

 

So players have lots of tools available--including climbing that always present learning curve--to find their own sweet spot.

[IHaveReturned]

Mappers have several dozen heads to choose from, and about 2/3s do not have helmets.

1 in 3. Heavens. That explains it. Especially if Xarg's version of realism is considered attractive.

 

Everything's a bell curve, so TDM's going to be tough for some, easy for others. All things considered, TDM hits the sweet spot for most. It has a few sliders available for tuning AI behavior, combat, ease of lockpicking, etc., so there were some early design decisions made to accommodate different levels of player skill. In 1.08, people were complaining that the AI couldn't see well. Others complained that they had 10/10 vision. It was tough getting a consensus. Prior to 1.08, AI were less likely to notice you in general, but 2.00 toughened things up a bit, so visibility became more of an issue.) Can't please everyone with a single setting, so 2.00 lets you change how well AI see you.

I do like hearing that mappers have that much control. At least that means you haven't made a toolset that defaults to uber-veteran difficulty. Which I am extra convinced of now, after hearing a dev and TTLG veteran admit to hating so many aspects of the game. Then it can be blamed mostly on the individual mapper.

 

Is it possible to tie helmeted heads to difficulty level? That would be a nice compromise to my mind.

Edited October 13, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[New Horizon]

Pretty much. Call me crazy but I thought that was the idea behind the entire project. Thief with modern visuals and technical sophistication. Not the new hot thing for FM veterans having gone bored after a decade of playing.

 

It's not quite either of those scenarios. The idea behind this project was to create a "Thief inspired" gaming experience, one that felt more like a natural evolution of what LGS might have done had they made Thief 3 with a D3 like engine. It was never meant to be a 1:1 carbon copy....legally, it couldn't be and technically speaking, the Dark Engine wasn't coded to support the precise physics systems we have the luxury of using in TDM because computers back then would have slowed to a crawl. We had to ask ourselves this question, if LGS had survived and gained access to this level of computing power with complex physics systems...how might they have used them within the context of the game. How would LGS have 'evolved' their creation? You can bet that they would not have kept the 'hit and AI in the toe' KO system.

 

Hopefully that gives you a clearer idea of what our goal was and for many reasons, had to be. Honestly, once you get the hang of it, you will be able to knock out guards pretty much flawlessly every time. It's not that hard once you get a feel for it in TDM, but you have to commit to learning the differences in this system. The problem is that you're expecting a 1:1 copy of the Thief systems. Some things are pretty close to how they were, I think we've captured the essence of Thief better than TDS and the upcoming "Thief" game have.

 

There is really nothing 'uber hardcore' about the current system. I think you just haven't gotten used to helmeted AI requiring a bit more strategy to KO. Perhaps the issue is that you are attempting to KO helmeted guards who have been alerted and have drawn their swords? Some folks who hadn't read the manual had issues with that before and once they were aware of it had no issues afterward. If the helmeted AI has their weapon out, they can not be ko'd.

 

Blackjacking is outlined in the gameplay manual on the wiki.

 

http://wiki.thedarkm...ay#Blackjacking

 

Here is the section on blackjacking. If you keep these points in mind, you shouldn't have any issues adapting to the higher precision of the system.

 

Your blackjack is more effective if your opponent is relaxed and not expecting trouble.

You must hit an AI on the head to knock them out. Hitting an AI anywhere else will simply alert them. For best results, don't get too close to the AI, or you may hit them with your elbow instead of your blackjack.

You can successfully knock out:

1. Unarmed civilian AI from any direction, any time.

2. Bare-headed guards from any direction when relaxed, or from behind when their weapon is out.

3. Helmeted guards from behind when relaxed (helmeted guards cannot be knocked out when their weapon is out).

All armed AI are harder to knock out when the AI has drawn a weapon, because they are assumed to be ready for you. Either they have searched for you or been warned by a friend that something is wrong.

The blackjack does a small amount of damage, so you could theoretically beat someone to death with it, if you have a lot of time on your hands.

Undead and some animals cannot be knocked out with the blackjack.

v1.01: Certain heavy-duty helmets make their wearer immune to the blackjack. These can be identified by a face grill and a low back, which protects the base of the neck.

Note: the blackjack makes an overhead swing, so if there is something low in the way (like a doorframe) you might hit it instead of your target, especially if you are looking upwards.

[New Horizon]

Is it possible to tie helmeted heads to difficulty level? That would be a nice compromise to my mind.

 

I think the easiest thing to do would be a menu option to disable KO immunity completely for people who don't want the extra challenge, but I really don't know if anyone would want to code that in.

[grayman]

after hearing a dev and TTLG veteran admit to hating so many aspects of the game.

 

That makes it sound like I'm very negative on TDM. Disliking 3 aspects out of the hundreds it offers shouldn't lead you to that conclusion.

 

Quite the contrary. I love this thing, which is why I spend so much time with it.

 

I was just pointing out how I work around my own shortcomings, instead of claiming that something's too hard and should be made easier.

[IHaveReturned]

It's not quite either of those scenarios. The idea behind this project was to create a "Thief inspired" gaming experience, one that felt more like a natural evolution of what LGS might have done had they made Thief 3 with a D3 like engine. It was never meant to be a 1:1 carbon copy....legally, it couldn't be and technically speaking, the Dark Engine wasn't coded to support the precise physics systems we have the luxury of using in TDM because computers back then would have slowed to a crawl. We had to ask ourselves this question, if LGS had survived and gained access to this level of computing power with complex physics systems...how might they have used them within the context of the game. How would LGS have 'evolved' their creation? You can bet that they would not have kept the 'hit and AI in the toe' KO system.

...but you are convinced they would have upped the difficulty level just for the sake of greater realism? Seems to me, as game devs, they wouldn't have catered especially to dedicated fans as far as difficulty goes. I think we can all agree that TDM is more difficult than Thief, if only because the AI is more true to life this time around. Justified though that correlation is, it represents a clear departure from the inspiring work. And in the realm of fiction, everything exists to serve the purpose of the product, even down to the nuts and bolts of realism. I think that had LGS had access to modern tech, they would have made the AI more realistic without also making it realistically difficult. Gameplay would have come first, everything else second. I'm sure they could have increased guard senses back then if they wanted, not least because I know there are uber-difficulty mods out there, presumably made with DromEd. But they didn't. That speaks for itself as far as LGS intent goes.

 

It is one thing to be upfront about your vision and target audience, quite another to make significant changes while justifying it as an extension of the inspiring work. I hate to say this, but you guys are starting to sound a little like EM.

 

There is really nothing 'uber hardcore' about the current system. I think you just haven't gotten used to helmeted AI requiring a bit more strategy to KO. Perhaps the issue is that you are attempting to KO helmeted guards who have been alerted and have drawn their swords? Some folks who hadn't read the manual had issues with that before and once they were aware of it had no issues afterward. If the helmeted AI has their weapon out, they can not be ko'd.

Well, this is the helmethead thread, and that was what I first commented on. But the truth is, while helmetheads have bothered me to no end, I have honestly had trouble with all sorts of guards, especially torch-wielders. But I accepted that, because I don't mind a little challenge. But those helmetheads were just too much. Also, as I said above, I don't believe in problems going away just because you can work around them. I'm sure I could. But that isn't really the issue here, especially if you are going to invoke LGS as justification, rather than admittig that this is a "by TTLG, for TTLG" -sort of project.

 

As for your estimation of uber-hardcore, I remember having to stop playing your TDS Minimalist because on Expert certain AI could see me standing still in pitch darkness. I complained, and you told me everything was fine then too. Ever since, I have been convinced you have a very different understanding of Thief difficulty than I do.

 

That makes it sound like I'm very negative on TDM. Disliking 3 aspects out of the hundreds it offers shouldn't lead you to that conclusion.

Jumping, lockpicking, combat.

You are being rather generous with the importance of different features compared to each other, if these are just three among hundreds. If there is something NuThief has revealed, it is that two of those aspects are considered vital pillars of Thief gameplay, especially jumping. And yet you hate Broken Glass' implementation of them, while being in a position to have it fixed...and still you prefer just working around the problem. And this is supposed to convince me to do the same?

 

 

Ugh. I best not say any more. I feel myself getting personal, which helps nobody. I have said my piece. If I am right, there will in time be a critical mass of complaints of difficulty in this forum. If I am wrong, you have nothing to worry about.

Edited October 13, 2013 by IHaveReturned

[AluminumHaste]

It being a "problem" is your opinion, not a fact, please don't forget that. Some people will agree with you, most of them don't.

 

Just because 1 developer doesn't like something understand that it was designed by consensus among the developers and made this way. There are literally thousands of people who have played this game/mod there have been only a handful of people who find this too difficult or unfair to the degree that you do.

 

If this game is too difficult for you, or a mechanic is a game breaker for you, then perhaps The Dark Mod just isn't for you.

[New Horizon]

...but you are convinced they would have upped the difficulty level just for the sake of greater realism?

 

It's certainly possible, considering Thief 2 had helmeted guards that couldn't be blackjacked. If I remember correctly, that's where the idea originated from in TDM....but we didn't want them to be completely immune at all times unless they were wearing a full coverage, elite guard, helmet.

 

The TDM helmeted guards are probably a bit more forgiving since they can be blackjacked from behind while relaxed. I don't see how the changes are that drastic when the system was already there in the original games.

 

Are you talking strictly about KO'ing AI being difficult now, or the overall difficulty, because the Mod allows customization of difficulty levels in several areas, one of which is AI sight?

 

Seems to me, as game devs, they wouldn't have catered especially to dedicated fans as far as difficulty goes. I think we can all agree that TDM is more difficult than Thief, if only because the AI is more true to life this time around. Justified though that correlation is, it represents a clear departure from the inspiring work. And in the realm of fiction, everything exists to serve the purpose of the product, even down to the nuts and bolts of realism. I think that had LGS had access to modern tech, they would have made the AI more realistic without also making it realistically difficult. Gameplay would have come first, everything else second. I'm sure they could have increased guard senses back then if they wanted, not least because I know there are uber-difficulty mods out there, presumably made with DromEd. But they didn't. That speaks for itself as far as LGS intent goes.

 

Well, this is exactly the kind of thinking that would have happened over the last 9 years. Your guesses are as good as ours. TDM is different from Thief, yes absolutely, but it was never meant to be a 1:1 copy.

 

Perhaps you could elaborate on what exactly it is you find difficult about KO'ing AI in TDM. I know as a player you may feel it is adequate to say 'this is difficult' but for us to understand what is causing your difficulty, you would really need to describe what is happening...or better yet, maybe even show us a video. Is it your personal playstyle that clashes with how the team decided to design the KO system?

 

It is one thing to be upfront about your vision and target audience, quite another to make significant changes while justifying it as an extension of the inspiring work. I hate to say this, but you guys are starting to sound a little like EM.

 

I'm not sure how you're interpreting what I said as anything close to what EM would say....especially with the direction they're taking the series. I answered you honestly. Please don't paint me into some corner because you don't like how a feature has been developed. I never mentioned LGS as some 'free pass' card. I was simply trying to offer some insight into the design process.

 

Well, this is the helmethead thread, and that was what I first commented on. But the truth is, while helmetheads have bothered me to no end, I have honestly had trouble with all sorts of guards, especially torch-wielders. But I accepted that, because I don't mind a little challenge. But those helmetheads were just too much. Also, as I said above, I don't believe in problems going away just because you can work around them. I'm sure I could. But that isn't really the issue here, especially if you are going to invoke LGS as justification, rather than admittig that this is a "by TTLG, for TTLG" -sort of project.

 

Can you please elaborate on what is causing you issue with the blackjacking system? I get no sense of what is happening from your statements. How do you play the game? What is your playstyle? How do you approach them? Are they being alerted by sound, vision, or are you really close to them?

 

I'm not 'invoking' LGS as justification for anything. I'm simply trying to give you some insight into how things might have been shaped due to new technical abilities and trying to interpret how a third LGS thief might have evolved with the tech at our disposal. I'm also not speaking for the entire team in an official capacity. This is just my thoughts on the process of the last 9 years.

 

As for your estimation of uber-hardcore, I remember having to stop playing your TDS Minimalist because on Expert certain AI could see me standing still in pitch darkness. I complained, and you told me everything was fine then too. Ever since, I have been convinced you have a very different understanding of Thief difficulty than I do.

 

Well, you've already decided who I am based on that one experience...so i guess that it's then, huh?

 

Unfortunately, I discovered that the automated installer package for Minimalist had gathered the wrong config file in the final release. That was one of my test files and not the one that was supposed to have been written to the installer. At the time, I didn't have the time to invest in testing because my father was quite ill. I discovered the problem myself some time later, after all my source files had been lost in a hard drive failure, so my only copy was an installer I had to download. I had invested so much time and energy into that project that I was too burned out to rebuild everything from scratch, so I am sorry for the misunderstanding. It was never meant to have been that sensitive. It was quite simply an accident.

 

I was 'one person' working on that project. TDM has a number of people maintaining it and it's not as if decisions weren't debated and put to the test in every way, shape or form.

 

The Mod has also been available since 2009 and when the first releases went out we did hear a lot of complaints about blackjacking. We listened, looked into what players were saying and made some considerable changes.

 

Just to be absolutely clear here. I'm not speaking for the team in any official capacity. I haven't been heavily active for quite some time due to life committments. I'm just offerning my insights from the last 9 years in the hope that it would show you that decisions weren't made simply to make the game 'harder' and that they were well thought out and heavily debated. Anything that made it into the final mod would have been turned inside out.

[grayman]

... while being in a position to have it fixed ...

 

Well, I guess that's the crux of the problem. I don't believe there's anything that needs fixing. There hasn't been a hue and cry over the past few years to redesign blackjacking (though it was tweaked at one point, IIRC, to eliminate some inconsistencies), so I can only conclude that it's right where it needs to be. (And my observations regarding jumping and lockpicking pertain to how they're sometimes implemented in missions, and aren't dings against the game itself. TDM is a toolbox and the map authors are free to use it however they choose. If someone wants to make a mission that's not fun for me, it's their prerogative to make it, and mine to not have fun playing it. If a thousand people scream foul! then maybe the next mission from that author will be different. But that hasn't happened, and I don't expect it will.)

 

Certainly, people arrive occasionally to point out something they don't like--as you have--and we have these discussions. Sometimes they lead to change, and sometimes they don't; it depends on the weight of the argument, the number of voices clamoring for it, and the outcome of past discussions on the same topic. I wasn't around when the original design discussions were being held, but I can imagine they got quite heated at times as people voiced one opinion or another. But the designers worked through the differences, settling on the approaches they felt were correct in the areas of mechanics, the tone of the game, the artistic style, etc. I think they did a good job.

 

Now that we've gone standalone, we'll probably see the number of discussions like this pick up as new folks have ideas to contribute, bones to pick, pet peeves to get off their chests, kudos to throw around, and comparisons to make to T1, T2, and TDS, and even T4.

 

Looking forward to it.

[Xarg]

Aww I got a special mention, I'm flattered . TDM isn't particularly hard. Thief wasn't hard. They don't need to be hard to be enjoyable. You are mistaking an outdated skillset and set of expectations for "how things should be". These are my opinions, that until now I have not offered. Calling me out as if my personal and mostly unstated opinions were some barely hidden undercurrent of feeling as to how this project should be is reaching just a little, then again you also seem to have a grudge against NH for something he did in another project. Do you have serious problems with people not liking things you like?

 

Regrettably, your need to throw out soft ad hominem attacks has brought our correspondence in this thread to a close. Have a nice day.

[IHaveReturned]

I know I wasn't gonna say any more, but I'd still like to thank the devs for the insight, at the very least. I see no point in offering specifics, because as grayman rightly says, more voices are needed for them to be convincing. So I'll wait for that, and hope the problem will take care of itself.

 

There. Now I will shut up. For realz!

[New Horizon]

I know I wasn't gonna say any more, but I'd still like to thank the devs for the insight, at the very least. I see no point in offering specifics, because as grayman rightly says, more voices are needed for them to be convincing. So I'll wait for that, and hope the problem will take care of itself.

 

There. Now I will shut up. For realz!

 

Personally, I would like more details on your playstyle, or what types of situations you are in or how you are executing the KO, before you shut up. lol Fifty more voices could say, it's hard, but a single detailed explanation might help shed some light on why you personally find KO'ing in TDM so much more difficult than others.

[rich_is_bored]

How do you guys feel about the blackjack leaving faint marks wherever it strikes? I suspect the problem is that it's not clear when you're aiming too high, low or hitting an obstruction. A small detail like that may help people get acclimated.