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Lizz_Rydes

Neat music idea

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Hey TDM-ers.

 

I have an idea this time , so hear me out :X

 

Okay so I love the atmosphere some levels provide , sneaking through them really makes me feel...Thiefy.

But I was wondering well...

 

That atmosphere gets destroyed when you get detected , because you have to either run for your dear life , or try to fight and if outnumbered , die.

 

Now here is the idea - Wouldn't it be cool if when detected instead of hearing those bland "I shall devour you from this evil." - "Thief , help , Thief!" , to hear an instrumental track? What I'm aiming at here is detection music and battle music.

 

For instance , some triple A games do it , like when being looked for , there is a stellar track that makes you feel you're looked for , and when detected , boom , some awesome instrumental track starts playing , and you're running for your life with that playing in the background thus adding to the epic feel of running away. ( Take Assassin's Creed. Shitty game , great soundtrack ).

 

For TDM , I was thinking something orchestral , because it would fit the world perfectly.

 

Any support on this? :)

 

- Btw , here , just imagine running for your life with this playing in the background.


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Presently, the mapper could do in a hacky way, via a script that asks every AI if they alerted or not, then playing music based on that.

 

We don't have the music, and the mapper should choose multiple ambients for variety of situations: location idle, alert and combat instead of simply location music.

 

Choosing mission ambients is a surprisingly difficult task.

 

It is doable, but probably too much work for the candy gained.


Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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Presently, the mapper could do in a hacky way, via a script that asks every AI if they alerted or not, then playing music based on that.

 

We don't have the music, and the mapper should choose multiple ambients for variety of situations: location idle, alert and combat instead of simply location music.

 

Choosing mission ambients is a surprisingly difficult task.

 

It is doable, but probably too much work for the candy gained.

 

I agree mostly...Though would be very cool I guess :)


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Take Assassin's Creed. Shitty game , great soundtrack

Fuck that noise. AC is the best game ever made.

 

If only it didn't have the minimap on by default.


You can call me Phi, Numbers, Digits, Ratio, 16, 1618, or whatever really, as long as it's not Phil.

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If only it didn't have the minimap on by default.

 

A rather dull complaint since removing the minimap would make the game a lot more confusing because of the huge open cities.

 

- AC isn't a good game to me because the combat is simple as two buttons , stealth is near to non existent , and the only part I loved about it was the story and the parkour.


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If I recall, somebody was already talking about implementing this exact mechanic in their FM.

The basic point is it wouldn't be that hard for a mapper to script it.

I don't think it should be a mod-wide mechanic. But I'd be very curious to see individual FMs play with it.

I'm a big fan of FM experimentation & personal expression and different visions even into actual game mechanics.

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If I recall, somebody was already talking about implementing this exact mechanic in their FM.

The basic point is it wouldn't be that hard for a mapper to script it.

I don't think it should be a mod-wide mechanic. But I'd be very curious to see individual FMs play with it.

I'm a big fan of FM experimentation & personal expression and different visions even into actual game mechanics.

 

Agreed.

As I have heard there is someone working on The Dark Mod campaign , now music would be crucial for some story parts if he / they is / are aiming at making a triple A campaign design...

And for me I think a music is really a crucial part of a game , even though I don't mind the missing of it in TDM because , TDM is for hardcore players wanting Thief action , not people wanting an epic story.


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It's something that could start leaning more toward the AAA cinematic presentation that the game studios seem to love, but I'm not all that fond of myself. Could be good if done in a very subtle way though.

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Having special music played when chased can become pretty tiresome. In Splinter Cell, where going to fight the ai is a more successive strategy then in TDM, you always had that switches between idle and fighting music, and after a while it started to bother me. This is more a feature for strategic games or fun-shooters like Painkiller, where they did that as well.

 

Having special ambience played once the player enters a certain situation in the story is something that is already used by some mappers me thinks, and pretty easy to implement.

 

Anyways, I agree with demagogue that mappers should try out whatever they like, and maybe in a specific setting this system could work out well. But similar to New Horizon I don't regard a feature as good just because it is used in a variety of AAA games.

 

Implementing this would be much more simple then Sotha suggested. One could use the objectives system for this purpose. Make a hidden objective with the following settings:

  • make the objective reversible and non-mandatory
  • set the condition to "one ai is alert state 3" for music to be played if the ai is searching for you
  • the success script field should point to a script starting to play the specific music as ambience
  • the failure script should point to a script that stops the sound from being played

If you want to have another sound played once the player has been detected, enhance the above objective with

  • another condition set to "one ai is at alert state 5" and boolean not

and add another objective similar to the first one, just with alert state 5 used instead of 3.

 

I didn't tested this, it's just an idea, so it may need adjustment.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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That atmosphere gets destroyed when you get detected , because you have to either run for your dear life , or try to fight and if outnumbered , die.

 

Can't say I agree. I find running for my life is already exciting enough.

 

And I dislike how such music can give the player information he shouldn't have. In Dishonored, plenty of times I'm not even aware that I'm spotted, except that I hear that special "you're seen" piano chord.

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And I dislike how such music can give the player information he shouldn't have. In Dishonored, plenty of times I'm not even aware that I'm spotted, except that I hear that special "you're seen" piano chord.

This. Very much this.

 

I think it also places undue pressure on the player to avoid it, by offering a discrete 'you done made a mistake!'. ... Sure I'll often load when I get noticed in a really dumb place, but it's those times when you turn that into a chase and get away, that's when you get that feeling of 'whoa that was pretty awesome' (specially when there's some nice jumping going on :P)

 

Not to mention that music can easily distract you from the information you get from listening to subtle footfalls and such. Directional hearing is important, I even get annoyed with normal mission music getting in the way sometimes (and other times it makes me feel all 'ooh').

 

Just my take on it.

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Can't say I agree. I find running for my life is already exciting enough.

 

And I dislike how such music can give the player information he shouldn't have. In Dishonored, plenty of times I'm not even aware that I'm spotted, except that I hear that special "you're seen" piano chord.

 

Yeah I kinda used the wrong words there , not to mind that , Yes , I played Dishonored with Ultra Hard difficulty mod limiting myself to play through it without using powers what so ever , and yes , the piano cord made it stupid , and as I was thinking , the music should be played when you are spotted entirely , by that I mean when he already starts running at you (Unlike Dishonored where as soon as he gets a glimpse of you , the piano cord plays).

 

Yes , running is very exciting and hiding for your life is really a sight to see , but running for your life with some cool music in the background , and then that music turning into the pressure pumping "guards are searching for you" music while you are in the dark with them yelling "You can't hide forever , thief." . That was my whole idea.

 

 

Not to mention that music can easily distract you from the information you get from listening to subtle footfalls and such. Directional hearing is important, I even get annoyed with normal mission music getting in the way sometimes (and other times it makes me feel all 'ooh').

 

 

Yeah , I can see that problem though...

 

- Offtopic I just have to say I love people on this forum , so active and opinion sharing. :)


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And I dislike how such music can give the player information he shouldn't have. In Dishonored, plenty of times I'm not even aware that I'm spotted, except that I hear that special "you're seen" piano chord.

This makes me think of Morrowind, where the subtle strains of combat music kicking in was the the only cue that a cliff racer somewhere high above had spotted me. It became the theme music for for my annoyance with those flying buggers.

 

I agree that TDM doesn't need combat music, and in fact it would likely detract from the experience. An example: I had the crap scared out of me yesterday while playing Grayman's (exquisite) In the North when my sneaking was interrupted when a silent, elite female guard I didn't know I'd alerted leaped into my periphery and murdered me with her sword. If her awareness had been signaled by a music cue then I never would have experienced that entertaining shock.

Edited by Krypt

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The only argument against this I agree is the one where the music tells you when you're seen. But you can't not know you're in a fight! and as much as I think this game isn't about fighting or anything action related, these things are a part of the game, I think some different atmospheric tunes for battles could be interesting. As long as they don't give additional information to the player, but that's a problem, isn't it? when does it start playing and when does it stop playing?

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In my humble opinion the static ambient music contributes significantly to Thief's lonely atmosphere that I've come to love so much over the years. It's the exact same reason why Fallout feels so desolate and miserable. It feels like the world doesn't revolve around you, that you are too insignificant even for a music cue, that no matter whether you live or die the world will essentially be the same. That's not exactly in sync with the main storyline, but it is a very prominent theme throughout at least the first two games. Adding contextual music in Thief just ruins the experience a little for me.

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Offtopic I just have to say I love people on this forum , so active and opinion sharing.

 

You'll find no shortage of opinions here. :)

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I also think it's a bit like forced attention for the player that the game needs to "shout at you" (play appropriate music) to inform that the player is indeed in danger.

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when does it start playing and when does it stop playing?

One could let the music start once the player spotted an ai chasing him, so it only gives him information that he already has.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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One could let the music start once the player spotted an ai chasing him, so it only gives him information that he already has.

 

To be fair you already get info when a guard is chasing you. You can hear him draw his sword , and yell words like "I SHALL BANISH YOU FROM EVIL." , witch isn't that bad because in real life , somebody would probably shout at you too if you were stealing from his / her house.

 

Its not really the information that bothers me too much , I think music starting to play after the enemy starts chasing you would be cool , but the problem one already mentioned would be footsteps... You could not know where the guards are because of the loud music. But that could be easily fixed with a subtle tone of music , and not too much volume. Also when the chase ends , and when he enters the "Searching for you" phase , the music could fade out completely of change to a really really quiet track.

 

There seriously are multitude of options here... :)


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Or when a blow happens in combat maybe, for as long as combat lasts.

 

I wanted to say generally I differentiate between a "cinematic" event and "visual storytelling". IMO having visual storytelling events is a good thing... The sort of thing Half Life 1 had all over the place, and games like Bioshock and Dishonored have, where you see scripted events played out by AI in a story-like way.

 

It's where things are abstracted out of the world, like popups, HUD events, cued ambient music, etc, where one should tread lightly I think. Using it for something special can be effective I think. I mean in many cases it's indispensable... like the location based ambient music is very important to set the mood of an area IMO, or even a one-off cued tension building ambient can be good. But too much cued stuff out of the game world makes the experience less ... authentic(?) maybe.

 

I know it sounds strange, a scripted AI conversation and a scripted popup are both just as scripted, but somehow having an event actually in the game world feels really authentic to me, like I'm witnessing the story before me. And having things happen outside the gameworld remind me I'm playing a game... Not sure how to express it well. It's a gut feeling thing.

 

Edit: But again I'm happy if a mapper has a strong vision for it and it fits with the personality of their FM, I think the author should generally stick with their personality and go for it, and it'll be better for it (within reason!)

 

Edit2: @Krypt: Are you TDS's Krypt?


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Edit: But again I'm happy if a mapper has a strong vision for it and it fits with the personality of their FM, I think the author should generally stick with their personality and go for it, and it'll be better for it (within reason!)

 

 

I've gotta learn to make FM-s! :X

 

Or when a blow happens in combat maybe, for as long as combat lasts.

 

I wanted to say generally I differentiate between a "cinematic" event and "visual storytelling". IMO having visual storytelling events is a good thing... The sort of thing Half Life 1 had all over the place, and games like Bioshock and Dishonored have, where you see scripted events played out by AI in a story-like way.

 

It's where things are abstracted out of the world, like popups, HUD events, cued ambient music, etc, where one should tread lightly I think. Using it for something special can be effective I think. I mean in many cases it's indispensable... like the location based ambient music is very important to set the mood of an area IMO, or even a one-off cued tension building ambient can be good. But too much cued stuff out of the game world makes the experience less ... authentic(?) maybe.

 

I know it sounds strange, a scripted AI conversation and a scripted popup are both just as scripted, but somehow having an event actually in the game world feels really authentic to me, like I'm witnessing the story before me. And having things happen outside the gameworld remind me I'm playing a game... Not sure how to express it well. It's a gut feeling thing.

 

 

Now about that , yeah , a scripted event makes the world feel...Well more alive...

I mean , it would mean that the characters (Guards in this game) would have lives of their own. Like two guards talking to one another about how his children are waiting at home and stuff like that , would have an emotional impact on a player if he chosen to either kill him , or put him to sleep , or avoid him completely.

 

And yes , I do believe the ambient music should be well , lets say on the start of the level , for about 15 seconds I guess , and well in some special building like a church or a haunted house or whatever.

 

Epilogue music also , for instance , imagine if you stole the item you were had to stole as a primary mission objective , then some epic track plays for about 5 - 10 seconds after you've stolen it. And lets say then the alarm starts , all of the sudden all of the guards are storming the place , and you have to run away. And now the epic escape music starts.

Would be ... Epic I guess :)


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I've gotta learn to make FM-s! :X

 

We're always looking for new mappers! You'll definitely a lot of support around here for it.

You can get started by at least going through Fidcal's tutorial & see if you like it:

http://wiki.thedarkm...uide_Start_Here!

 

I hope you think about trying it. B)

 

Edit: I'm looking back over that tutorial and see it doesn't mention the Location Settings system for ambient sounds at all. Hmm... That's a pretty important thing for it to cover, I think. I might update it for that if it's kosher.

 

Edit2: Well I added a little note just mentioning it for now. That's probably good enough.

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We're always looking for new mappers! You'll definitely a lot of support around here for it.

You can get started by at least going through Fidcal's tutorial & see if you like it:

http://wiki.thedarkm...uide_Start_Here!

 

I hope you think about trying it. B)

 

Edit: I'm looking back over that tutorial and see it doesn't mention the Location Settings system for ambient sounds at all. Hmm... That's a pretty important thing for it to cover, I think. I might update it for that if it's kosher.

 

Edit2: Well I added a little note just mentioning it for now. That's probably good enough.

 

Oh yes , yes I will. :D

Though my brain is really small for this kind of stuff , I already read the article and was pretty confused in all that coordination thingies. But as soon as I get some free time , I'll do my best :X

 

BTW ,

I was trying to contact Springheel about TDM Trailer that I'm working on , I posses Sony Vegas editing skills , and decided to promote the mod a little by creating its trailer. I was thinking if you might have any suggestions on that? :D


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Sounds great to me, especially for horror missions (Amnesia anyone?). When the tense music should stop? When the AI go back to a lower alert state.

 

If you want to try this out I can help out, ask in the dark radiant newbie question thread too.

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