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Springheel

Adjusted Door Handling

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One thing I like about Thief is that you have to frob the handle of a door to open it.

 

Our frob distance for doors seems really far. You can actually open a door from places that would be impossible in RL, like grabbing the hinge side of a door and pulling it towards you. I wind up doing this a lot and it always feels like a bit of a cheat. This could be improved by requiring players to frob the actual handle of the door. The frob distance could stay the same, but it would stop the player from being able to grab the door from the far edge.

 

This would also make lockpicking more reasonable, as you wouldn't be able to lockpick from the far side of the door either.

 

I'm not sure if this would mean that the door would no longer froblight...one concern if this is the case is that players might assume the door cannot be opened if they don't realize they have to target the handle.

 

Would this be a desirable change?

 

Also, an editing question, is it already possible for mappers to try this? It seems like the kind of thing that might already be possible with a bit of an adjustment to the door entities.

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No change needed, you may already do that, simply reduce the frob distance on the door. It defaults to 100, but if you make it 10, your nose needs to be very close to the handle (edit, to lock-pick), and if you are by the hinges, no dice. (When crouched, you need to look up; if standing, you need to look down.)

 

However players might not like that, as when I tested it on a map of mine months ago, I found having my screen filled with nothing but closeup door to be unpleasant, and it also highlights limited resolutions on doors/handles as they are huge in the middle of your screen.


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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No change needed, you may already do that, simply reduce the frob distance on the door. It defaults to 100, but if you make it 10, your nose needs to be very close to the handle,

 

Why would you have to be close to the handle, rather than being able to frob it from the other edge like you can now? Does the frob target the center of the door or the edges?

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*shrugs, doesn't targeting around the handle make most sense, especially for lock-picking?


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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I'm not following you. You're saying that reducing the frob distance requires the player to be close to the handle to frob the door. I don't understand why that would be the case, since I assume (though haven't tested), that a frob-trace just needs to hit the surface of the object. So reducing the frob distance to 10 should mean that you could still frob the hinge-edge of the door, but from 10 units away rather than the current 100.

 

So I'm either misinterpreting what you're saying, or my assumptions are wrong. I'm not sure which.

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I think it would be a good change. Very often I've been able to pick a door from the safety of darkness, when realistically I would have had to step into the light to pick the lock. Times like these enhance tension, which usually means enhanced fun.


Alberic is my sparring partner.

Whaddya mean, smiley faces aren't punctuation :huh:

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I'm sorry if I'm not clear. No change needed. It already works the way you desire. I don't know why you are assuming things are other than they are.

-Set the frob_distance spawnarg on a door to 10.
-Select your lockpicks.
-Get near the hinges of the door.
-Observe it not highlighted.
-Move closer to the handle, observe it highlight (if you are crouching, you'll need to look upward; if standing, look downward).
-Move past the latch end of the door, observe it's still highlighted.

The distance is customizable by the mapper.

[quote name='SirGen' timestamp='1403667227' post='348722']
I think it would be a good change. Very often I've been able to pick a door from the safety of darkness, when realistically I would have had to step into the light to pick the lock. Times like these enhance tension, which usually means enhanced fun.
[/quote]

Then request mappers design it differently would be my thought, as they chose to place the light radius there, and the frob_distance according to their design plan.
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"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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I didn't realize that it was a map/mapper by map/mapper basis. I wouldn't want to dictate to any mappers. Just thought I'd voice my support for the idea.


Alberic is my sparring partner.

Whaddya mean, smiley faces aren't punctuation :huh:

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Nah, not dictate, but feedback and preferences are good to know! :-)

 

In my first map, I specifically sized the light so you could find a shadowy corner to pick the door without problems, because I had frequent AI observations, time was geared toward moving through the door. I tend to see maps with more light having fewer patrols. But knowing where players like challenges (other than ourselves) helps to make choices that work for more fun game-play!

 

PS: That's why I ran a poll prior to my last map asking about knocking out/killing AI versus ghosting/working around them, so I could design around what people enjoyed.

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"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Instead of making the door the entity which needs to be frobbed the hinge has to be used. The door itself can be frobhilighted using frob_peer, so this is no deal.

 

You could try to make the hinges frobable but the door non-frobable, I think frob_peer is already set on the default doors (prefabs).

 

And yes, this would be a very useful change.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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On a similar note, is there a default setting that makes the lockpicking distance closer than the using-a-key distance on objects?

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I also liked that in Thief. Drawer handles (not the drawer face), chest locks (not the whole chest or chest lid), door handles (not the entire door), etc. were the only thing that highlighted and that is what you had to frob to open the object. It feels more immersive especially in dark areas to have only the object that your hand is touching to frob highlight; door handle, drawer handle, chest lock, etc.

 

Another possible issue we have with our dresser drawers is that there aren't actually handles because the dresser hardware is created in the texture and not modeled.

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If I recall, there was a shorter frob distance in TDS that really annoyed me. Doors were always swinging into me since I couldn't open them from a further distance. Wouldn't be bad if the lockpicking distance were shorter but I think the door opening / closing should remain the same.

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If I recall, there was a shorter frob distance in TDS that really annoyed me. Doors were always swinging into me since I couldn't open them from a further distance. Wouldn't be bad if the lockpicking distance were shorter but I think the door opening / closing should remain the same.

 

Good point, though we could still consider measuring the distance from the handle. Grabbing a door by its hinge from several feet away is what makes it feel unrealistic.

 

The "exploit" that feels most unrealistic to me is lockpicking from an absurd angle. Mappers can shine a light on a chest but often you can get behind it or down the side and pick the lock from darkness even though you can't see the lock.

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On a similar note, is there a default setting that makes the lockpicking distance closer than the using-a-key distance on objects?

There is a spawnarg or similar iirc that acts as a multiplier for lockpicking, meaning the frobdistance gets multiplied with it if you wanna pick the lock.

The "exploit" that feels most unrealistic to me is lockpicking from an absurd angle. Mappers can shine a light on a chest but often you can get behind it or down the side and pick the lock from darkness even though you can't see the lock.

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?title=Triggering_events_when_looking_at_something


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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No change needed. It already works the way you desire. I don't know why you are assuming things are other than they are.

 

It sounds like you're saying the frob trace already uses the handle? I can't confirm that.

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I also liked that in Thief. Drawer handles (not the drawer face), chest locks (not the whole chest or chest lid), door handles (not the entire door), etc. were the only thing that highlighted and that is what you had to frob to open the object.

 

I turn off frob highlight of chest bases so only the lid highlights, which makes it so much easier to get loot out compared to the usual pita.

 

However just doing the standard locking mechanism isn't so useful, as the frob highlight on dark metal is so dark as to be unapparent. I haven't tried separate padlocks or other models for that purpose though.

 

It sounds like you're saying the frob trace already uses the handle? I can't confirm that.

 

Curious, multiple times now the steps I listed provided the results I listed in both 2.01 and 2.02.


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Curious, multiple times now the steps I listed provided the results I listed in both 2.01 and 2.02.

 

When I set it to 10, I couldn't get the door to frob at all. When I set it to 20, I had to be quite close, but it didn't matter whether I was close to the hinge edge or the handle edge.

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There is a spawnarg or similar iirc that acts as a multiplier for lockpicking, meaning the frobdistance gets multiplied with it if you wanna pick the lock.

 

I understand why you have to be closer while lockpicking, but I don't understand why that same logic doesn't apply to using keys.

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Ah...I see the issue. When there is a handle attached, the handle has its own frob distance that is independent of the door. So if you put the door frobdistance to 10, then from most angles the handle will capture the frob, and it highlights the whole door when it does so. So you can still frob the door from a short distance, but can frob the handle from a long distance.

 

So RJ, you were right; this can easily be done by mappers.

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You could try to make the hinges frobable but the door non-frobable, I think frob_peer is already set on the default doors (prefabs).

 

Setting the door to "frobbable" "1" results in neither the door nor handle being frobbable.

 

I haven't been able to find a way to make only the handle highlight, and not the door itself.

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I understand why you have to be closer while lockpicking, but I don't understand why that same logic doesn't apply to using keys.

I think this etting is on the lockpicks themselves. So changing the base class for keys to reach that effect may be possible.


FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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So RJ, you were right; this can easily be done by mappers.

 

If we leave it to mappers, though, aren't we opening the door (so to speak) to widespread non-uniformity of how players manipulate doors?

 

If a door highlights at X units in Map A, won't I become frustrated when it doesn't highlight at that distance in Map B because the mapper has set the distance to something considerably less than X?

 

This could also frustrate the lives of players who are used to walking up to a door to see if it highlights (is usable) or not (not usable). If it doesn't light up at 100 units, it might make them turn away and skip the door. (We know we can't rely on the "if there's a handle the door is usable" rule, because that's a religious debate among players and mappers.)

 

Also, not all doors have handles, particularly the ones that have a handle or ring as part of the door texture. In that case, does the door automatically revert back to the 100 unit distance, now making the new "you have to be closer for the door to highlight" rule confusing when some doors follow it and some don't?

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I haven't been able to find a way to make only the handle highlight, and not the door itself.

 

Normally you have to provide the "frob_peer" spawnarg to accomplish that, but it might be happening automatically behind the scenes for doors, as I don't see that spawnarg listed in the inherited args. (This could relate to the issue if you bind loot to a door, when it moves, it also activates the ka-ching as if you are collecting loot, which can't be suppressed.)

 

This is the problem when things are not left up to mappers. ;-)

 

If we leave it to mappers, though, aren't we opening the door (so to speak) to widespread non-uniformity of how players manipulate doors?

 

If a door highlights at X units in Map A, won't I become frustrated when it doesn't highlight at that distance in Map B because the mapper has set the distance to something considerably less than X?

 

Sure, if you also are frustrated by some chests highlighting the bottom of them so you can't get loot out without endless fiddling after climbing on the chest (a default I believe should be changed). If you are also frustrated that some electric lights have switches and some don't. If you are frustrated that some maps only provide certain tools and no store. If you are also frustrated at other variations in mapper styles. Of course, if you are frustrated by such things, it's unlikely you'd be playing a mod specifically designed for mappers to showcase their own unique designs instead of preventing them from designing, because all that's available is a limited standard of conformity. (If the answer to, "how do I change it so players have to get closer to manipulate doors", or, "I have a big door, how can I let the player be further away to open it without blocking it" is "you can't, we decided it should be standardized to X setting"--THAT would be frustrating.)

 

Doors have operated differently in different maps for a long time now, without significant complaints afaik. The only one I do remember seeing is some folks not liking when mappers use auto-close. But then they also don't like when maps have lower performance (a common reason to use auto-closing). I was cognizant of my first map using auto-close to both simulate gravity and improve performance, but not a single unfavorable mention about it.

 

Generally players learn quickly the nuances of specific maps and mappers. For example, I know certain designers tend to alternate lock-picks, rather than mixing up the sequence. If there's something unusual, players then start looking for that aspect in a map. Typically it doesn't cause frustration, but delight. (Conversely, a beta tester didn't like the length of picking I'd initially put on a coinbox, to motivate players to pick pocket the key. There the mapper reverted to more of a norm and an attribute of potential game-play was diminished.)

 

Also, generally mappers are lazy. You'll note that most doors are left at the default. It's only if there's motivating reasons to do otherwise they get changed. Doesn't this seems to be fostering a solution to a non-existent problem?


"The measure of a man's character is what he would do if he knew he never would be found out."

- Baron Thomas Babington Macauley

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Speaking as a player only, I see it reasonable mappers use default settings, - however, I am extremely surprised at the "reach I have" in opening doors... seems like the distance I can open a door ( if I "stretch it" ) is quite a bit longer than my arm... probably longer than my whole body. I would humbly suggest the default setting to be changed to something a little closer.. a little bit more reasonable - as this then would be the most common use of distance for mappers who use default settings.

Thanks to all again, for a great MOD

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