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Fan Mission: La Banque Bienveillante by Airship Ballet (2014/11/22)


Airship Ballet

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@Thiefette

I honestly never had trouble with the low ceilings, I guess we all just look at different places when we swing. I've also had nothing but trouble when putting frob blockers between rooms so, eh, I'm happy to leave that as a slight issue.

 

@Grayman

 

1 - I've been getting a lot of complaints about that. Could be harder, could be easier, but I wanted it to be a sticking point for people. I'd find it myself because I always check the tops of paintings when I know there's a button around, but it doesn't seem to be common practice.

2 - I assumed people would pick that up in a normal playthrough anyway, but I guess not!

3 - Currently there's no incentive, but they're worth 1000G each which translates into 1 gold for the next mission.

4 - Well, that's the idea. I put in the information you'd get in a normal mission that you need to complete it, such as the vault codes and the alarm warning, but the rest is just to give you an edge.

5 - Uh-oh, I forget what that contains other than general moveable loot, but I guess whatever's in it got knocked out of place and caught the door in its collision mesh.

7 - There's a lever next to it, and I think the deposit hint says as much. Probably more of my crappy wording :unsure:

 

I'm glad you both enjoyed yourself! The next one's on the way ;)

Edited by Airship Ballet
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  • 2 weeks later...

Nice map, enjoyed playing it. Really nice mapping, especially on the highest floor.

 

 

Only weird thing: the player is getting told that the vault is basically impossible to enter by digging a tunnel and in the end there is a tunnel where you can deposit the loot? Other than that, nice work
(By the way, I really like your mapping timelapse videos. You have a really great sense on how natural looking interiors should be made and it also shows in this FM.)

 

Edited by Cookie
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Well, I get a lot of fun out of making a space look and feel believable, the downside being that the locations are pretty uninspired where grounded in reality. I'd like to do something a bit more fantastical some time, but for now it's realistic banks. I'm glad you like the aesthetic, even if it isn't too interesting! The no-digging rule was just a cop-out to prevent me having to implement assets based on easier ways into the vault: if there's only one way in then I only have to hook up one set of triggers ^_^. I'd like to see other mappers record their building and make timelapses too: it's really mesmerising, even when it's my own work.

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I played this mission on New Year's eve, which, all things considered, was a good idea.

  • The mission had an impressive atmosphere of authenticity about it, particularly in the security systems. Most bank missions don't really recapture the feeling of breaking into a bank, but here, it is very satisfactory to finally get into the secure vault and escape with its contents (and I must assure you, my reference comes from bank heist movies, not personal experience).
  • It is a proper, complex challenge. Not too hard, not too easy. Adding extra objectives and helps based on the favour system is inspired, although there were probably too many points for the player to spend. But it is a good idea, and I would love to see it in other projects.
  • It looks good whichever way you look. Alternate ambient light levels are used appropriately and for good atmospheric effect. Architecture is varied. Interiors are stocked in interesting ways.
  • I also liked the human angle of the inhabitants - fully realised personalities and all.

There are also weaknesses, though.

  • The individual areas are well-constructed, but as a whole, the bank plays like a series of set-pieces instead of a continuous location. There is a separate entry area, a separate office area, a separate cellar and a separate upper floor, and they are more like individual micro-missions. This feeling is created by two factors: first, the linearity of space, which does not have alternate routes and interesting interconnections; and second, the slightly "off" proportions of the individual segments. The office space and the upper floor feel much larger in scale than the other places, damaging the otherwise strong credibility of the mission. The staircases are too narrow, offering no good recesses and hiding spaces.
  • The offices felt more modern in feel than the rest of the mission.
  • Loot. The vault cache is just right, and getting the bags out had a nice "tactile" feel. This is not the problem. But the rest was almost cartoonish; I swear I hauled out the contents of a liquor store. I know there are different philosophies about the amount of loot, but less is just more in this case. That projected shadow of a goblet and a wine bottle on the bathroom wall was worth more than a whole collection of other wine bottles - because there was a significance to finding them through a visual clue and getting away with the loot.

But all in all, really, this was very enjoyable. I only criticise because the rest is good.

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Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Thanks for the feedback, it means a lot. All the problems with design you bring up are completely valid, and I was aware of them while building it. I essentially had to hold myself back when making it. If I started with a medium-sized mission and promised that they would be increasingly impressive through the campaign, I'd end up making something crazy for the final one. All I could really do was join up set-pieces, with little room for miscellaneous places to explore. In the end, the important areas feel more like individual levels of a puzzle game than a cohesive sneaking mission. It suffered and ended up fairly heavy-handed thanks to my keeping it small, so I'm having a riot with the next one along: the AI are passing and walking with one another so often that you'd need a notepad to keep track of their paths. As you say, however, I think it turned out pretty fun regardless ^_^

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  • 3 weeks later...

Nice little mission, with some really good ideas! Even before starting the map, I love how the shop is used not just to buy classic items, but also to purchase information or select optional objectives. Playing with the vaults and using the clues to figure them out is also fun, so another +1 for that.

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  • 1 month later...

This mission had some good ideas, but it somehow simply did not engage me.

 

 

 

I was impressed by the opening scene, which promised me a great mission. I tried to avoid the AI at first, but slowly I started -to my horror and disappointment- to realize how the mission was put together.

 

First and foremost: the mission was sadistically difficult.

Narrow corridors with lots of stuff to get stuck to.

Bright lights, sometimes with a light switch, sometimes without. Felt inconsistent. Brutally bright doorways that lead to places unknown, usually with a guard that immediately attacks.

Extremely dark ambients in some locations felt artificial, especially when entering from an extremely bright ambient area.

Unimaginative AI paths made them feel like robots on rails. They had very little depth.

Quite linear structure, coupled with the bag dragging chore. The tunnel with the ladders was particularily horrible as the bag was getting stuck as I made my way forward and upwards.

Some areas with too repetitive ambient music. Some areas completely without. Felt unfinished.

 

There were good things, too, like the the vault opening which was well done. The location story was well fleshed out and I got the feeling of the owner and the workers.

The ingame shop system was imaginative, but somehow did not work for me. I would have rather bought arrow directly rather than a drop. It felt a bit like being different for the sake of just being different. I would also preferred of getting [OPTIONAL] objectives, rather than 'buying' mandatory ones.

 

In the end, I just KO'd everybody collected the loot and got out. The amount of loot was insane! I realized you were making it to be a joke especially in the one cabinet, which upon opening spat an overflow of loot out.

 

I'm sure this mission has been a good learning experience. I would like to see more human-like AI behavior. Perhaps a conversation or two. A sneaking game needs some shadows and some room to maneuver around the AI. There should be areas of high tension and areas of safety, and areas to withdraw if the AI spot you. This mission forced save/loading which was dull.

 

Anyhow, thanks for the mission! It will be interesting to see your future works.

 

 

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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It's certainly not for everyone! It breaks away from tradition with the new stuff, which is where I think it becomes divisive, but I assure you it doesn't just do it for the sake of it. Since I wanted the campaign to grow exponentially I had to start small otherwise I'd set the bar too high for the next missions, which also means tight corridors and a bank built on a budget. The complaints obviously vary from player to player: most people found it way too easy and short, and several thought that the abundance of loot was refreshing. Really the map started as an exercise in more complex systems with DR entities, and ended up a small map. After that I decided I wanted to do a series of bank missions and turned it into a proper mission. It's cramped, intentionally so, and the small floor space means I was really restricted when pathing the AI. I obviously wasn't going for story because, well, it's a bank job in the vein of earlier T2 missions in which you're stealing for stealing's sake. You don't have a nemesis, nor are you stealing some ancient relic or doing a favor for anyone: the only real focus is the vault and how to get into it. The second mission out addresses pretty much all of the above issues, because most if not all of the issues raised are caused by its size. I could only do so much with the space, so it ends up underwhelming and sometimes frustrating. That said, it's an introduction, and hopefully once the whole thing's finished it'll fit in nicely.

 

With regards to ambient light I've always been a proponent of darkness. While no ambient light at all is unrealistic, I still like to leave it dark in the dingier, window-less areas. I think too many FM authors have done their work an injustice by cranking up the indoor ambient light and making everything look washed-out, so I want to avoid that and keep it atmospheric. Speaking of atmosphere, the map itself isn't particularly thematic, so I was stumped with regards to ambient sounds. I'll be changing them come the third mission's release because it's a common complaint I forgot about while changing it this time around. I just went for those repetitive drones, which I like but others apparently don't. I'll add some sound wherever I've set it to be silent, too. While it was intentional (and isn't unfinished), it striking you as odd is the last thing I want.

 

Thanks for taking the time to respond ^_^

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Thanks for taking the time to respond

 

Thanks, you too! :)

 

One more thing: door opening sounds. The default opening and closing sounds are used so often they don't sound that good anymore. Changing the default sound to something else helps a great deal: there are better sounds than the default ones bundled with the core mod just begging to be used. ;)

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Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Great mission, didn't find it very difficult to knock out the guards. Some parts were a bit annoying, still haven't completed the hidden compartment/finding evidence-objective (had to check in here for hints so I know where the hidden switch is now, you bastard ;P ).
I really liked the layout and rooms, but as others mentioned it feels a bit cramped.

Overall quite enjoyable with great attention to detail. Looking forward to playing the next map, downloaded the campaign version.

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"My milkshake bringeth all ye gentlefolk to the yard. Verily 'tis better than thine, I would teach thee, but I must levy a fee."

"When Kleiner showed me the sky-line of New York I told him that man is like the coral insect—designed to build vast, beautiful, mineral things for the moon to delight in after he is dead."

https://soundcloud.com/paralytik

 

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It's intentionally cramped, and while I like it most people don't :ph34r: Still, I'm glad that button's caused people trouble: some things even in the original Thief disregarding FMs were evilly placed. No free lunches here~ Enjoy Chase!

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The only cramped bit I remember of either mission was that first stairway in La Banque, and I rather liked that. It was realistic, and it made me get inventive to get past its guard (throwing a candlestick around to draw him out into the foyer).

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  • 3 months later...

Finally got around to playing this mission.

 

I liked the believable setting and details in this mission.

I do agree with others that it is rather linear and I tend to prefer more open maps.

 

It is rather cramped and well lit. While I wouldn't necessary promote that as a desirable trait, I'll admit I kind of liked that in this case.

Whether intentionally or not, it does emphasises some skills that go underutilized in a lot of other TDM missions, such as "timing" and locating guards through indirect or non-visual means. I wouldn't want too many missions like that of course, but it was a bit refreshing in a way.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hm, the vault seems to be buggy or I did something wrong:

 

 

First I deactivated the movement detection in the cellar and then I went to the vault, entered the code and opened its door. After this when I go in the movement detection still sounds the alarm, which causes the vault door to squeeze me in until two elite guards spawn out of nowhere and push me into the vault with their swords which causes me to die by gas slowly while I can watch them fighting each other for no reason. I don't think this is right :D

 

 

"Einen giftigen Trank aus Kräutern und Wurzeln für die närrischen Städter wollen wir brauen." - Text aus einem verlassenen Heidenlager

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  • 3 weeks later...

A bit late to the part, but I played this today. The mission had a lot of good things going for it, and the fact that it was essentially a speed build makes it all the more impressive.

 

 

 

The good:

 

-Loved many of the new painting textures--I might steal a few for a project I'm working on

-The purchase system was very interesting. I did miss the traditional purchase options though, so I wonder if a hybrid would be good? While it was interesting to have water arrows stashed for me in the map, it seemed to limit the possible equipment I could get (no options for flashbombs or health potions, etc), and I never did find one of the stashes I bought. On the other hand, it gave me a reason to visit places on the map earlier rather than later. Not sure why everything was so cheap--I could have sold my starting water arrows and bought everything on the list.

-- the purchase map was well done and gave me a good ability to plan where I wanted to go

- Really liked the creative touches that we haven't seen before--flipping the desk cover to find the keys, cutting wires, etc.

-- the "cleaner" idea is a very creative way of encouraging the player to limit KOs and kills. I did try to avoid them, though ironically I ended up killing more AI than usual.

-- there were some interesting story bits that added some colour--the fact that Morley was a good guy made me try hard to put his key back without KOing him (though ultimately I couldn't--the first time I dropped the key in the drawer the objective didn't tick off).

-- the way the gold and gems turned into bags was great.

 

The bad

-- The map design didn't feel especially believable as a real place--it didn't seem like anything went on top of each other--although you went up and down stairs, you were rarely ever under or over other parts of the map. Also, I didn't understand why there were so many offices. That part felt more like a police station than a bank.

-- as Sotha mentioned, the short patrols didn't make the AI seem very believable. The guys in the office were fine, but most of the other guards were very robotic and often just climbed all the way up stairs only to immediately turn around and walk back down again. I wasn't sure what they were doing. Also, none of the AI patrols overlapped, so they seemed oddly isolated.

-- some of the gameplay was challenging in a way that was almost unfair. I like a challenge, but there were several places where I got caught because of unforgiving map design. Even the first stairwell was extremely challenging--a bright electric light at the top of the stairs with a locked door and only a few seconds to try anything before the guard turns around. There were several places in the map that had bright lights right beside doors, so you had to basically do a blind open and just hope no one was looking your direction. I got busted several times doing this, and because there were no flashbombs, I basically had to try and fight my way past when caught. The office had the right level of light and challenge, IMO.

-- The guard in the office got stuck treadmilling sometime after I went into the cellars. Not sure against what, but he stayed that way for the rest of the mission.

 

 

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I'm glad you liked it! I think the level design issues were all a result of me trying to keep it a super small map. It was hard doing very much at all, knowing that I'd have to one-up it for the next one. The result of the tiny map is tinier spaces to put guards in, and a bunch of unfair, cramped areas that could either contain an unfair guard or be really boring. I went for the former, obviously. Still, Chase is bigger and better in that regard, though I think a little linear.

 

I've been meaning to put the paintings up, actually. I think I'll go do that now, before I forget.

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  • 7 months later...

Ha! Found it! There's some thread confusion here because the mission is named Quinn Co so that's the thread title I searched for - the only one I found was by someone else who also failed to find this thread. The thing is, before and after finishing a mission maybe a thread link is needed for missions? (Maybe there is and I missed it?) This is particularly true for newcomers who might not realise there is a help and feedback forum.

Anyway, got Mission Completed and then it seemed to restart so I broke out to figure out what had happened. Finally realised it's a campaign and there's another level (or more?) Really needs something there to make a bigger show. Probably a Dark Mod thing and it needs more than Mission Complete - or a modified version? Dunno needs more than just another briefing (and I'm sure I'd read that before?) Maybe that's a quick fix - a big message at the start of later level briefings that it's PART TWO or MISSION TWO to show it's continuing? Maybe a second graphic screen after Mission Complete but before it goes to the next briefing? Possibly that Dark Mod Graphic could have an alternate form that switches in instead.

Now, the mission itself is fine. There was some really creative and inventive stuff in the shop (though I really wanted a little more cash to spend! ;) ) The lighting looked okay but there was not enough contrast in many places (to make the shadows look convincing) and some places were near totally black which just meant I had to exit and boost the gamma up full. IMO Those places needed a tiny bit more light plus orientation glimpses (a faint patch of light from a skylight, a glimmer down a pipe, and some light texture trim, etc.) to give the player something to work with, while still looking convincingly dark.

The enemy were rather too fast and sensitive and there were not enough shadows so, despite my being reasonably expert, I suffered endless busts and quickloads simply because it was impossible to judge many situations so I just had to dash and hope. That's not good gameplay.

BTW I think the slow match texture is missing because the slow match was all black, making it impossible to tell which is the lit end and making it hard to see in the gloom to touch it delicately on a wick. It looks fine in the second level.

One problem was a guard I KO'd, picked up and turned over etc, fell against a chest. Later, I lockpicked the chest but couldn't lift the lid because he was now pressed against it and he had become unfrobbable. Do bodies now normally become unfrobbable after time?

Apart from the above, this was a good standard Dark Mod mission plus it had some extra interesting creative parts such as the shop, good info, that heavy loot idea, and so on. The story was enough to feel properly involved and not just a blind loot quest.

Visuals were okay. There were a few poor texture choices (like rough wood in quality areas) but generally acceptable.

I'll continue playing mission 2, probably tomorrow, and I'm looking forward to it. :)

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