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Knocking out Blinded AI


Nightcrawler

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The problem I can see in modifying stuff is not that it would make things just easier for the player - that's not a problem - but that in some circumstances the player could achieve s.th. completely new; something the level author didn't want the player to do...

 

That is exactly what I meant. The post was meant to explain to wesp5, why it is so difficult to add new features, so I am sorry, I went off topc a bit there. Back on topic: I agree that the blinding/Ko-ing does not risk too much of an exploit.

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These are the rules for KOing an AI:

 

1. Civilians can be knocked out at any time, from any angle, at any alert level.
2. If the AI's alert level is at least m_KoAlertImmuneState, and m_bKoAlertImmune is TRUE, the AI is immune.
3. If the AI has a sheathed weapon or no weapon, and their alert level is below m_KoAlertImmuneState, a KO can occur from any direction.
4. If the AI is ready to do combat (usually a drawn weapon), and their m_KoAlertImmuneState == 4 (helmet), they're immune, even if they're at a lower alert level.
5. If the AI is ready to do combat (usually a drawn weapon), and their m_KoAlertImmuneState == 5 (no helmet), and their current alert level is below m_KoAlertImmuneState, a KO can occur only from behind.
6. Finally, check the KO angles and determine if the blow has landed in the right place.
7. A sleeping AI can be KOed from the front, unless he's wearing a helmet with a facemask.
As you can see, being blind has no effect.
However, when blinded, visual acuity drops to zero and aural acuity drops to 1/4th the normal value. So you have a better chance of approaching an AI to KO him when he's blind. But him being blind in no way gives you carte blanche for a simple KO regardless of alert level or immunity.
I'm not sure why it should. Why is an AI more susceptible to a physical act simply because he can't see well? Does a sword blow do more damage? Does a broadhead to the body do more damage?
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Let's say someone suggests to make all glass in TDM breakable by arrows and blackjacks (which would be more realistic). The problem is: Your older mission, that you spent hours in creating, has a glass window, to show the player his goal and then the mission leads him through a maze of interesting stuff. With the change, the player can just break the glass in the beginning and the mission is completely obsolete.

I can understand that, but hasn't the AI been changed quite a lot since TDM was started? Wouldn't this mean that all earlier missions are not anymore like the builders intended? Also an alternative would be to have builders update their missions to keep up with new features. After all, I think the goal of the mod is to be most fun to the players and not only to the map builders, no?

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Make a fork project "The Dark Mod: Snuffed Edition" (etc). Then, if it's substantially better, players will flock to it.

Yeah, this is mentioned here a lot because you pretty much know that most people can't do it and don't have the time to do it either, so this is a nice scapegoat to stick with the one solution you like the most ;). Even if it would happen, it would be a very bad idea because it would split the community! Believe me, I know this from the "Bloodlines Patch Wars"...

Edited by wesp5
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To go back to my suggestion: You might see that it would make things easier for the player but couldn't mess up a mission - simply because it doesn't really add a new feature: The player already can blind the AI and knock them out - right now he just has to approach more carefully, because he must not get spotted before...

The same is true for my suggestion to snuff out oil lamps because you could already do this using water arrows, you just needed to manage them better except for the rare mission with no water arrows at all. Back to your suggestion, of course I agree with you here :)!

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Why is an AI more susceptible to a physical act simply because he can't see well? Does a sword blow do more damage? Does a broadhead to the body do more damage?

Uh oh, why does it matter if a guard is alerted or has it's weapon drawn then? A blackjack hit to the head should do the exact same damage every time! In reality of course you couldn't blackjack someone with a drawn sword from the front as he would block or even stab you. Maybe this could be implemented somehow?

Edited by wesp5
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Uh oh, why does it matter if a guard is alerted or has it's weapon drawn then? A blackjack hit to the head should do the exact same damage every time!

 

It does do the same damage every time. The difference is in the bar that has to be jumped over before the damage is applied. When alerted, his senses are more keen and he has a higher ability to avoid being KO'ed (perhaps he hears the swish of the blackjack a moment earlier than when he's not alerted, and moves his head just enough to avoid the KO), but he has no better chance of avoiding an arrow.

 

In reality of course you couldn't blackjack someone with a drawn sword from the front as he would block or even stab you. Maybe this could be implemented somehow?

Not unilaterally, because he has to be forewarned of your action. Since he can't see you, he can't block or stab unless he's struck first. His only defense is hearing you before you strike, but his hearing is less acute when he's dealing with the pain of the attempted KO.

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I can understand that, but hasn't the AI been changed quite a lot since TDM was started? Wouldn't this mean that all earlier missions are not anymore like the builders intended? Also an alternative would be to have builders update their missions to keep up with new features. After all, I think the goal of the mod is to be most fun to the players and not only to the map builders, no?

 

Yes, the AI has improved, but the basic mechanics are still the same. I don't believe, that a mission author would object, if the AI is more effective in searching for the player. As I said: this is apparently a point of opinion and thus this discussion won't come to a satisfying conclusion. I think it is good, that the missions are kept as close to the original intention as possible, even if it would just be to respect the work that went into them.

It is true, that the mission authors could try to keep their missions updated. But (and again this is my opinion) I would not want to spend hours on a finished project with every update of the mod. I agree: the goal is for all people involved to have fun and even though I don't want to put one part of the community above the others, I believe that the authors' opinion should have more weight here, simply because without them, there would be no more new missions. Players are a lot easier to attract, since they just consume and don't really have any work with the mod. The authors (and of course the developers) spend a lot of their spare time (that as soon as you start a job and maybe have kids etc gets more and more precious) to entertain the players and this is work that wants to be appreciated.

Instead of the authors keeping their missions updated, you could also argue, that each mission could get a label like "made for TDM version X.Y" and let the player get the applying version. But this again would keep players away, because for many people this is too cumbersome. It is not possible to make everyone happy, but we can try our best. And as nbohr1more said: It is an open source project. So, if you don't like something, change it for yourself.

This was again a lot off topic. Sorry. If we want to further this discussion, I would suggest an own topic for that, because it just has not much to do with knocking out blinded AI.

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When we release a new version of TDM, we do as much testing of released missions as time allows. Breaking a released mission is a no-no. If a change is something we really need to have (i.e. a map relies on a bug that has to be fixed), we will either change the mission and re-release it with the author's permission, or work with the author and have him change it.

 

I'm not aware of any AI behavioral changes that slipped past this net and screwed up a past mission.

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When alerted, his senses are more keen and he has a higher ability to avoid being KO'ed (perhaps he hears the swish of the blackjack a moment earlier than when he's not alerted, and moves his head just enough to avoid the KO), but he has no better chance of avoiding an arrow.

I think that if he hears the swish it's much too late, also the animation in game clearly shows that the guards do not dodge. You can hit an alerted guard over the head multiple times and he is simple invincible which always felt wrong to me! Also with this argument a guard confused by being blinded should be much easier to knock out as suggested.

 

I really love TDM, don't get me wrong, I whine about improvements because I really think TDM could even be better with more features and more options for the player, but just posting a table here to explain how blackjacking works is a nice proof that the whole process is very counterintuitive for players and to many feels random as the final result!

 

I have another idea which might be not feasible and I don't expect you to implement it, just to think about it ;). What if the hitbox of the guard would define whether he could be hit or not. Like the sword at the front would just block the player from getting near enough to make contact? Or a helmet actually blocking the hit zone. Could this be more intuitive?

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Uh oh, why does it matter if a guard is alerted or has it's weapon drawn then?

 

 

You asked that question already in this thread and it was already answered.

 

the common game convention that alerted AI are more difficult to harm with weapons because they are dodging, tensing, etc.

 

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... just posting a table here to explain how blackjacking works is a nice proof that the whole process is very counterintuitive for players and to many feels random as the final result!

Why counter-intuitive?

 

Why random?

 

My posting of the rules was to show that a lot of thought has been given to the various situations that can present themselves.

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You asked that question already in this thread and it was already answered.

Yes, but this time grayman explicitely stated that it is only valid for blackjacks because of some invisible dodging manoever! And that's what I mean by counter-intuitive: As a player you can't see why blackjacking an alerted guard doesn't work anymore because the action looks exactly like a micro-second before he was alerted. Why can't this be delayed or connected exclusively to him having his weapon completely out? In that case the player could see the difference and wouldn't need to research a table posted somewhere on the internet!

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Yes, but this time grayman explicitely stated that it is only valid for blackjacks because of some invisible dodging manoever!

 

 

The concept applies both to damage and blackjacking, though the mechanics are slightly different. Grayman was explaining to you how the blackjack mechanics work.

 

The justification (and thus the answer to your "why" question) is the same in both cases.

 

When AI are less alert, it is assumed that the player is able to pick the most effective spot to hit them. They can aim right for the gap in the guard's armor, or swing right for the base of the neck where the helmet doesn't reach. When the AI are alert, it is assumed they are tensing their muscles, dodging, weaving, or otherwise doing things that keep the player from hitting exactly where they are aiming.

 

This is hardly a new gaming convention--it goes back to D&D in the 70s.

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This is hardly a new gaming convention--it goes back to D&D in the 70s.

That is good and fine in an RPG where you can't see the result. In TDM it just looks ridiculous to me when you hit a guard several times right into his face while he draws his sword as if nothing is going on because his alert level has switched him to invincible! Why can't this be delayed until his sword is out and the change is visible?

Edited by wesp5
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To settle on some middle ground in this - the way blinded AI works now when Alert is not perfect but is definately much more logical than AI choking from Moss Arrows like in Thief Deadly Shadows as Springheel mentioned earlier some time ago.

 

In the perfect case scenario the AI would have a million animations for each combat situation like Batman.

But in real life a hit in the back of the head is 80% likely to kill you likewise. Consecutively the Hollywood flick with beautifully synchronised choreographic KO's is a myth. Simply because the human skull is the weakest on the flanks and especially in the back.

 

This is a very interesting debate however.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

badge?user=andarson

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To settle on some middle ground in this - the way blinded AI works now when Alert is not perfect but is definately much more logical than AI choking from Moss Arrows like in Thief Deadly Shadows as Springheel mentioned earlier some time ago.

To come back to the original problem, it was suggested to have blinded AI be knockable from any directions, not just for the fun of it, but to get players unstuck if they drop a flashbomb while surrounded by alerted guards. I think this would be the easiest way, especially to avoid adding new features like kicking or pushing NPCs...

Edited by wesp5
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To come back to the original problem, it was suggested to have blinded AI be knockable from any directions, not just for the fun of it, but to get players unstuck if they drop a flashbomb while surrounded by alerted guards. I think this would be the easiest way, especially to avoid adding new features like kicking or pushing NPCs...

If they are Alert they probably won't be knockable from any direction since they are ready for combat already and it defies the logic.

 

The only desireable feature is to be able to knock them out from the back if they are Alert (presumably to encourage a moment of surprise and a second chance for the hard work during all the sneaking a player does) - but again if the in-game logic already has an explanation against that then I'm fine with it.

 

The thief isn't supposed to be that strong either way. He can't have a chance against battle-hardened thugs.

 

Let's just say that when they are Alert they expect you to hit from behind too - that's where the training went at!

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

badge?user=andarson

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When AI are less alert, it is assumed that the player is able to pick the most effective spot to hit them. They can aim right for the gap in the guard's armor, or swing right for the base of the neck where the helmet doesn't reach. When the AI are alert, it is assumed they are tensing their muscles, dodging, weaving, or otherwise doing things that keep the player from hitting exactly where they are aiming.

Unfortunately, this is a corner case where it's no longer a simple disjunctive list: blinded guards quite probably are tensing their muscles, but they're not going to be dodging or weaving very effectively with heavily reduced sensory awareness.

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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Unfortunately, this is a corner case

 

 

If I knew there was an opponent in melee range and I was suddenly blinded, I would still be doing things to try and protect myself from an attack, whether that was putting my arms up defensively, turning towards noises, etc. Granted, I would be a lot less effective at defending myself that way, but the general principle still holds. I'm not going to be holding still and allowing someone to hit me wherever they like.

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In the perfect case scenario the AI would have a million animations for each combat situation like Batman.

But in real life a hit in the back of the head is 80% likely to kill you likewise. Consecutively the Hollywood flick with beautifully synchronised choreographic KO's is a myth. Simply because the human skull is the weakest on the flanks and especially in the back.

 

I have actually quite often thought about, how realistic blackjacking people is. I found out, that it might not be as deadly as you suggest (depending on the blackjack used, but according to Wikiepdia a quite commonly used tool was a leather bag filled with lead, which is actually comparatively soft), even though it can cause severe damage if used with too much force. The victim is knocked out through a concussion (how hard you hit determines if it actually causes severe damage or even kills the target) and will have a big headache the other day. I am not sure how adrenaline and awareness influence your resistance to blows to the head (I have never been in a brawl or something similar myself), but since the guards are combat trained, I would assume, that they should be resistant to knockouts, once they might expect them. And blinding should not make them less expecting a hit.

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I would assume, that they should be resistant to knockouts, once they might expect them. And blinding should not make them less expecting a hit.

There are no muscles on your head that could be tensed to defend against a hit with a leather bag filled with lead. If you don't dodge or block it with your arm or weapon, you are helpless and if you are blind you can't dodge or block effectively. I'm doing some LARP fighting and seeing the enemy weapon is the only way to dodge it or block it on purpose! Besides this, we don't see the guards dodging or blocking anything, even when they are not blinded and still the problem persists how to get a stuck player out. In reality you would just push the blinded guards over or knock their weapon aside or even grapple it out of their hand...

Edited by wesp5
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Granted, I would be a lot less effective at defending myself that way

Right: the question isn't whether you'd try, but how often you'd be successful. Presumably even alerted civilians try to dodge a frontal blackjacking; they just aren't any good at it, whereas alerted guards have the training to succeed reliably under normal circumstances.

Edited by VanishedOne

Some things I'm repeatedly thinking about...

 

- louder scream when you're dying

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