Mortal Combot!

[Darkness_Falls]

Umm, LOL, honestly? That kind've creeps me out. I've had no fewer than 5 of these 'Hmm, why isn't that a coincidence!' experiences in the past 2 days.

[Domarius]

The robots in T2 were scary because of the cannons...

I agree, for all the reasons you described so well

 

I think it'd be freaky to be spotted by a bot and have it gape open its mouth ...

That whole description sounds cool. But I'd preffer it if the face was modelled like that to begin with - the mouth is fixed in that position, for firing. It's be scarey to look at any time. But when it saw you, its eyes lit up, etc. everything else you described.

[Ishtvan]

It's mouth could have like a torpedo tube cover that creaks open when it's alerted. I guess this would make sense to prevent the black powder inside from getting wet from humidity, or worse yet prevent some spark from a fireplace from going in there and igniting it if they don't have the propellant well isolated from the firing chamber.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

Since there really is no final say on the types of weapons the bots will have, or should have, i'll just do art and ideas for a bunch of different attack styles.

[Macsen]

A sound weapon might also be interesting. A shrill, piercing cone of sound that deafens the player and alerts the entire area.

I don't know about this. The bots were just about the right side of annoying in T2. Having them scream like fondled eunuchs might not be a good idea. Perhaps a deeper roar rather might be better? I like the idea of a scary bellowing of some kind.

 

I thought the exploding canons were right behind the exploding skulls in terms of poorly thought-out weapons.

 

Their crudity is part of their appeal. If this robot was a slick T1000 it would lose its fearsome steamp powered might and thoughtless destructive bent. If we have a robot that starts to 'judge' situations and choose the most appropriate weapons so that he 'doesn't smash that lovely china vase' it loses all of that crazy unpredictable piston powred might that makes it such a fearsome beast. You can't reason with something that flings cannon balls around with mad abandon. It'll kill you, and then probably keep blowing you to bits after you're dead (as I saw the combat bots do zombies in T2 Fms). Then it'll follow your herse and keep lobbing bombs into your grave.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

I'm still against cannonballs, they just seem like a silly choice of weapon in the face of all the other options.

[sparhawk]

Define what this bot is built for. Whats his task? Then you should know how it might reasonable look and what weapons he can use.

[Macsen]

The combat bot should look like this:

 

 

MEDIBOT!

[Macsen]

 

Here is my crazy wheel combat bot, based on GIMGs design.

 

Rather than just rolling along he uses the pistons and wheels in his shoulders to stomp about.

 

You should be able to see the boiler furnace through the mouth, so that when he stares at you an evil red light shines forth...

Edited April 13, 2005 by Macsen

[Domarius]

If we have a robot that starts to 'judge' situations and choose the most appropriate weapons so that he 'doesn't smash that lovely china vase' it loses all of that crazy unpredictable piston powred might that makes it such a fearsome beast. You can't reason with something that flings cannon balls around with mad abandon. It'll kill you, and then probably keep blowing you to bits after you're dead (as I saw the combat bots do zombies in T2 Fms). Then it'll follow your herse and keep lobbing bombs into your grave.

Macsen, you describe them so well This is the way I always felt about them too.

 

The mindlessly mashed together clippings of Karras's recordings helped to acheive that effect too.

It's like (monotonous Karras's voice) "blah blah blah..." while the terrifying *whiiiiiiine* of the weapon powers up and then *FOOM*, and then if you're not already dead you're running away from this insane thing that just won't stop chasing you.

[Springheel]

The mindlessly mashed together clippings of Karras's recordings helped to acheive that effect too.

 

I guess my experience with the robots was quite different. I found the recordings got extremely annoying very quickly. What made the robots intimidating to me was their size and the fact that, once they spotted you, they were almost impossible to stop (unless you could get them to blow themselves up).

[Macsen]

I found the recordings got extremely annoying very quickly.

Yet you want to replace this with high pitched squeals? I don't get it.

 

The voice recordings were quite important in Thief. After a while you realised that the voices weren't just on a pre recorded loop, but that the robots could actually choose from a selection of recordings and apply it to their situation. This showed that the robots had some kind of low level intellect, a chilling thought which fed into the whole T2 distopian steampunk setting. However, like the 'newspeak' in 1984, it was also very apparent that the robots range of words was so small it could only think a specific set of thoughts. It could react to a situation, but it couldn't think outside of what it had been programmed to do - which is find you and kill you. Once it saw you, there wasn't any question of thought. It was simply 'Intruder!', and that familiar yet horrifying sound of the cannon gearing itself up... quickly followed by Garrett's equally horrifying death scream.

 

I think the voices was a fascinating look into the mind of the steampunk robot. We could of course choose a less annoying voice - it was really the Karras voice that grated, rather than the fact that the robots 'spoke'. It might be very chilling, and spookily unusual, if we gave the robots a female voice. It is exactly the kind of thing Morden Adringhton would do. Think of the juxtaposition between that giant stomping brute and a spooky soft female voice coldly informing you that it is time for you to die.

[Springheel]

Yet you want to replace this with high pitched squeals? I don't get it.

 

What was annoying was the whiny, grating voice, and the fact that they only had three or four barks to choose from.

I never suggested replacing them with squeals. The only sound idea I put forward was for a blasting cone of sound that would disrupt the Thief's hearing and alert the area, like a banshee. That would be a weapon, not a bark.

 

After a while you realised that the voices weren't just on a pre recorded loop, but that the robots could actually choose from a selection of recordings and apply it to their situation.

 

I never read anywhere near that much into it. The robots had a couple different phrases they used depending on what they were experiencing. It really wasn't any different than the human AI, except there was no attempt to make it sound natural. I didn't find it very fascinating.

 

I think we did agree that we want the bots to have some kind of voice-set, but that's as far as it got.

 

edit: In fact, since we're covering old ground again, here are the relevant bits:

 

oDDity:

Lol yeah, that's a good point. Maybe they should have a type of internal croosbow which shoots fire arrows, or even ordinary arrows - even gas arrows for the elite badass bots - these would obviously knock you out and you game would be over.

Or how about they just spray out the gas without an arrow at all. Maybe the gas doesn't get you straight away, but makes your screen spin and blacks out and you have to do your best to get away.

 

Renzatic:

Fold out pivoting blades would be good for em, it's the first thing I think of when I look at Oddity's mech model.

 

Springheel:

On the topic of bots, I've been thinking of having at least four different kinds. One would be a complete non-combatant, just a sentry like the smallest T2 bots, perhaps with a spotlight to help with searches.

 

Then there would be a somewhat effective combat bot, a cheaper model like a house guard. They would have no hand-to-hand weapon, and would fire basic crossbow bolts with a slow rate of fire. They can be disabled relatively easily. Possibly something like the spider-bots of T2. Then there is your standard combat bot, that fires crossbow bolts from each arm. If you get too close, it has blades on its arms as Ren suggested. It is not easily disabled...about the same difficulty as T2.

 

Then there are the elite bots. They could be more humanoid, firing poison gas arrows and using an electrical rod in hand-to-hand combat. It is very difficult to disable them. They would have a spotlight, and perhaps even eyes in several places, giving them a wider POV.

 

Ishtvan:

Yeah, I think the only reason they would need voices would be to sound the alert for guards, but this could be done by making an "alarm" sound too, right before they attack.

 

I guess the voices helped the player figure out what alert state it's in, but we don't necessarily need that. We could just have the alerts represented by slightly different changes in their ambient hum and animations or something.

 

oDDity:

I loved the karras ramblings that came from the bots in T2. Obviously we can't do a Karras voice here, but do they have the abiltiy to speak at all? I think they should. THey could have pre recorded phrases they say through speakers.

[Macsen]

I never read anywhere near that much into it.

If you're trying to construct a world like this you should read into everything far too much, because different people are going to 'get' and appreciate different things, as you'll see in any half decent plot discussion on TTLG.

 

I remember giving my Christian friend my first novel, and when he gave me his interpretation my brain exploded. There was underdeveloped symbolism and themes in there I hadn't even considered while writing the thing. Now I try to approach what I write from many different viewpoints.

 

Luckily the steampunk and stonepunk subgenres of Thief have some features that will be instantly familiar for fans, and any other discussion tends to orbit around those common themes. Have a quick look around the web for material on them. You'll come away with a much better understanding of what the Thief writer was trying to achieve.

[Springheel]

If you're trying to construct a world like this you should read into everything far too much, because different people are going to 'get' and appreciate different things, as you'll see in any half decent plot discussion on TTLG.

 

People 'get' and appreciate things regardless of what the author's intent is, as you illustrate in your own example.

 

You found them a fascinating look into the mind of a steampunk robot, I found them annoying and repetitive. Some people, when they look at three blobs of paint on a canvas, see a poignant statement on the human condition. I see three blobs of paint.

 

Are you trying to argue that we should consider all the possible ways design decisions would be 'read' by other people before making them? That would be paralyzing.

[SneaksieDave]

The voice recordings were quite important in Thief. After a while you realised that the voices weren't just on a pre recorded loop, but that the robots could actually choose from a selection of recordings and apply it to their situation.

Oh good heavens yes, that was possibly the most brilliant thing in Thief 2. Whoever had the original idea for that design (heck, it might even have been Brosius' suggestion, with his sound mastery) deserves a cookie. A BIG cookie.

 

Spring, if you're interested: take any of the bot sounds and listen to them out of game - they way they're designed is pure genius. A crappy recording of Karras' voice (that in itself is clever as hell, as his Children), and then you can almost see that he sat down and made sound bits of himself, that could be spliced together (and in fact, you hear the merges, and the stutters and even skips and errors) depending on the evidence the bot is experiencing. I know this is all stuff you know, but I got really excited when this "dawned on me."

 

Freaking brilliant, I say!

[Macsen]

Are you trying to argue that we should consider all the possible ways design decisions would be 'read' by other people before making them? That would be paralyzing.

No, as I showed, other people have already done that for us:

 

Luckily the steampunk and stonepunk subgenres of Thief have some features that will be instantly familiar for fans, and any other discussion tends to orbit around those common themes.

 

You found them a fascinating look into the mind of a steampunk robot, I found them annoying and repetitive. Some people, when they look at three blobs of paint on a canvas, see a poignant statement on the human condition. I see three blobs of paint.

 

Well, its lucky the world wasn't created for you then Spring! It might be rather boring for the rest of us. Anyway, your example there was a bit extreme. What we're doing here is much more open to intertextual analysis than three black blobs of paint.

 

See SneaksieDave's reply above. People appreciate this stuff.

[oDDity]

THe problem is that we can't do the same thing they did in T2. We have no megalomaniac in the game. The ranting of Karras throigh the bots was very specific to the T2 plot.

We'll have to make do with cold phrases pre recorded by the Industrialists for the bots to play in specific circumstances, like warnings and tellig intruders to halt. The more dialogue you give them, the more you humanise them.

[sparhawk]

We'll have to make do with cold phrases pre recorded by the Industrialists for the bots to play in specific circumstances, like warnings and tellig intruders to halt. The more dialogue you give them, the more you humanise them.

Humanising them was part of the plot of T2 after all, and this was alos one thing that made them much more creepy.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

And another of my art threads turns into a feature debate....

[Springheel]

Oh good heavens yes, that was possibly the most brilliant thing in Thief 2.

 

I was convinced you were being sarcastic here, as it is so far removed from my experience. But I take it you weren't.

 

Well, its lucky the world wasn't created for you then Spring! It might be rather boring for the rest of us.

 

I guess I'm just not so easily fascinated. The great thing about reading into things is that it doesn't matter whether there was ever really anything there or not. The imagination of the perceiver will always outperform the author's intent, if you let it.

 

Anyway, if the thought of robots with grenade launchers gives people an existential experience then heaven forbid we should tamper with them!

[Domarius]

Springheel, I want to back up Macsen and Sneaksie and tell you that they have summed up the bot experience for me. I can't believe you didn't notice that the bot voices were mish mashed clips of Karras's recordings, mashed together by the robot to form wierd sentences, eg:

 

"I have heard..." *click* "...I do not know."

Means "Heard something" "unidentified".

 

Part of me is not surprised you didn't read this much into it since I remember you generally never saw the point in a lot of the "let's think of a logical explanation of how this could work" kinds of discussions. Don't take offence, this is just a general observation.

 

Some people like to wonder how things work, and get a great deal of enjoyment from this.

[Springheel]

I can't believe you didn't notice that the bot voices were mish mashed clips of Karras's recordings, mashed together by the robot to form wierd sentences, eg:

 

Of course I noticed they were Karras' recordings, but they said the same thing every time. I didn't get the impression that they were putting things together in a creative way. If they were searching, they said phrase A. If they were attacking, they said phrase B, etc. If the phrases were actually cut verbatim from the general ramblings the bots had while idle, I didn't notice it. Are they?

 

Part of me is not surprised you didn't read this much into it since I remember you generally never saw the point in a lot of the "let's think of a logical explanation of how this could work" kinds of discussions. Don't take offence, this is just a general observation.

 

True enough. I don't care much about things the players won't really notice, like the inner workings of a rope arrow. But I do care about 'logical explanations' for some things, like why nobles would purchase walking grenade launchers to protect their fine china.

 

And, to be clear, I've never said the bots shouldn't have recorded voices. Just that I found the Karras voice highly annoying. I doubt I'm the only one.

[Domarius]

As far as the game is concerned, yes there is just one file being played when the bot has become alert level 1, etc.

 

But the actual files are meant to sound like mis-matched clips selected by the robot depending on what's happening, if you listen to the mis-matched phrases and clicks. Like the example I gave. It's actually one wav file on your HDD, but in the game its meant to sound like two seperate clips.

 

As for protecting China, the bots generally turned up in places were there wasn't much fragile stuff to damage. It makes sense to have one walking a circuit around the hammerite church, where it needs to be most heavily guarded, and the only things out there are stone walls.

[Macsen]

And, to be clear, I've never said the bots shouldn't have recorded voices. Just that I found the Karras voice highly annoying.

I second that.