Mortal Combot!

[oDDity]

That argument doesn't work, SH. WE define the setting. Whatever we say the setting is, becomes the setting. So there's no such thing as 'something not fitting the setting'

Where is the rule book, which defines the parameters of our game, and what fits and doesn't fit?

When T1 fans first played T2, I bet most of them thought the bots shooting cannons didn't fit the setting, but these days we see it as much a part of Thief as anything else.

Exactly the same would be true if LGS had included flintlock rifles in Thief. We wouldn't even be having this argument- it would be taken entirely for granted by everybody that guns are as much a part of Thief as burricks or water arrows.

 

Why is it only right if LGS did it first?

We are making our own game here remember, not THief with better graphics.

Edited April 18, 2005 by oDDity

[Macsen]

 

That helmet would be great for the elite guard. It almost looks like the riot police.

 

We are making our own game here remember, not Thief with better graphics.

 

I concur!

[Fingernail]

Can I just jump in and say FIRST MILESTONE

 

and CAMPAIGN FEATURE

 

right about now? :lol:

 

And shouldn't you be having a break, Macsen?

[Springheel]

I like the helmet with the little eye slit in it.

 

So do I, but nobody else does. I suggested it a while back.

 

That argument doesn't work, SH. WE define the setting. Whatever we say the setting is, becomes the setting. So there's no such thing as 'something not fitting the setting'

 

You're right. However, we are clearly using the Thief-defined universe as a template. We design the setting, yes. But there are plenty of things we can agree do not 'fit the setting' including dragons, unicorns, pointy-hatted wizards, motorcars, sherman tanks, and UFOs. We are at least trying to work under a shared vision here.

 

Flintlocks may be more of a grey area, but I'm expressing my opinion that they would be detrimental to the style we want to create.

 

And if I can suggest looking at it a different way...what do flintlocks ADD to the game? If they are slower and less efficient than bows, what's the point of including them?

[Macsen]

So do I, but nobody else does. I suggested it a while back.

Well you can trade with oDDity; guns, and you get yer helmet.

 

And shouldn't you be having a break, Macsen?

 

Yes, but you keep having interesting discussions I can't help but butt in on.

[Dram]

LOL Mac. Yeah, I love the storyline so far, real good. I don't know though, even if it was used at the time, "cunt" just did'nt fit into that conversation, but that's just my opinion. LOL, I was making this mansion from GIMG's blueprints and then after i read the storyline i finally realised what i was making :lol:

[Dram]

oh, and i like that helmet!

[Macsen]

LOL Mac. Yeah, I love the storyline so far, real good. I don't know though, even if it was used at the time, "cunt" just did'nt fit into that conversation, but that's just my opinion. LOL, I was making this mansion from GIMG's blueprints and then after i read the storyline i finally realised what i was making :lol:

Thanks Dram! But you're in the wrong forum!

 

And if I can suggest looking at it a different way...what do flintlocks ADD to the game? If they are slower and less efficient than bows, what's the point of including them?

 

If you argue against their practical use, then why did man start using them in the first place? They're more accurate, and quicker to fire; it just takes an age to reload.

[Springheel]

Well, you can't have it both ways. They're either better than bows and swords, or they're not. If they're better, it wrecks the setting. If they're worse, what's the point?

 

(Besides, early firearms are FAR less accurate than a crossbow, AND slower to load. Even in the later days of musket battles, armies would actually arc their shots like arrows, counting on numbers and random luck to hit anything. Their benefit was greater range, which doesn't really matter for us.)

[oDDity]

As far as I'm concerned there is nothing that was in use on Earth 500 years ago that doesn't fit into the game like a glove. Nothing.

The guns add:

1: Something else to distinguish our game from Thief

2: Another small victory for my realism war.

3: Gives the elite guards a distinct and sharp edge - a one shot kill. Yes, you migh say we can give them a one shot kill with the bow, but it's beter for gamplay if the one shot kills come from different weapons.

4: Will probably piss off some Thief fanatics over at TTLG, which I always enjoy.

5: I don't need a fifth, since the first four are so great.

[Springheel]

3: Gives the elite guards a distinct and sharp edge - a one shot kill. Yes, you migh say we can give them a one shot kill with the bow, but it's beter for gamplay if the one shot kills come from different weapons.

 

Elite guards don't need a one-shot kill (and there's no reason why a gun should give a one-shot kill over a bow at short range). A gun would actually put elite guards at a disadvantage. Elite guard spots the thief from a balcony and fires. Thief dodges. Elite guard now has no more missile weapons, while regular guard next to him snickers and keeps firing arrows.

 

And can you really tell me you can see your elite concept with a flintlock, without it looking ridiculously out of place?

 

[oDDity]

Elite guards don't need a one-shot kill (and there's no reason why a gun should give a one-shot kill over a bow at short range).  A gun would actually put elite guards at a disadvantage.  Elite guard spots the thief from a balcony and fires.  Thief dodges.  Elite guard now has no more missile weapons, while regular guard next to him snickers and keeps firing arrows.

 

And can you really tell me you can see your elite concept with a flintlock, without it looking ridiculously out of place? 

That was just a quick sketch, it 's not set in stone. I can make anything look good, dion't worry about that.

You just try standing in front of a rifle, and dodging the bullet when you hear the shot)

And of course, the guard CAN reload the rifle, it just takes about 10 seconds, in whihc time the archer is providing covering fire, not laughing.

Edited April 19, 2005 by oDDity

[Dram]

Problem: What if you're Neo?

 

[Domarius]

... Elite guard spots the thief from a balcony and fires.  Thief dodges. ...

Just like that huh?

 

I'm not for or against guns right now, but that hypothetical situation is bending reality in the way only Neo can.

[god_is_my_goldfish]

It would definetly be hard to dodge a well aimed shot from a filntlock, but that would be rare for it to have a well aimed shot, considering how loose the aim is on those.

 

Meh, for the sake of compromise, they could be included, but should be rare, only hammer elites should have them , and even then, they shouldn't be a one hit kill if your going for reality or gameplay, certainly they would hurt alot but it often took volleys of bullets from filntlock rifles to bring men down in wars.

[Darkness_Falls]

Okay, I'm back from a week-long road trip and ready to comment.

 

( 1 ) I don't think the flintlock (gun/rifle) would fit well in the environment/atmosphere we're trying to create, personlly. I'm way with SH on this one. The only way I'd see a gun/rifle working is if the thief goes through a warp of some sort -- or visits a parallel universe -- and is transported to the King Louis XIV time & place where people go fox hunting, etc. (A time (or place) warp in our campaign might actually might be kinda cool, but otherwise I feel guns/rifles carried by guards should be out.)

 

( 2 ) That helmut (I remember the discussions) reminded (and still reminds) me of a helmut used in Star Wars. This Star Wars'ian somewhat futuristic look of it is what turned me off from it. It may be old, but whoever designed it had a futuristic mind, apparently

 

EDIT: I was just reading an interview for the upcoming Age of Empires III game. Not sure if this applies to flintlock or not (since I've never heard the term "flintlock" before), but thought I'd post here since we're somewhat talking about guns/rifles:

Greg Street: Because we are doing a historical game, we have to deal a lot with perceptions. A lot of players expect for a guy with a musket to basically beat anything else on the battlefield because they have this expectation that modern firearms are so deadly. That didn't happen of course. Muskets were used largely because they were cheap at a time when national armies were growing larger and larger, not because they were particularly effective. They weren't particularly deadly until the 1850s, around the time of the US Civil War.

Edited April 20, 2005 by Darkness_Falls

[Domarius]

It would definetly be hard to dodge a well aimed shot from a filntlock, but that would be rare for it to have a well aimed shot, considering how loose the aim is on those.

So it would be more like the guard misses, cause he has such a low chance of hitting his target with that unreliable thing.

[Ishtvan]

Guess I have to throw my 0.02 in here too after getting back from vacation...

 

Gunpowder = plot holes

Personally I don't think gunpowder should be discovered in our world. Adding gunpowder opens a Pandora's box of plotholes. The Mechanites are basically mechanical geniuses to do the things with Steam power that they do. I mean they're making more advanced combat bots than we have today with modern materials and technology. Also, I always get the impression that they made great technological leaps in a short amount of time (ie, rudimentary electricity in T1, combat bots in T2)

 

If they had access gunpowder, I would find it very hard to believe that the Mechanites would not be able to improve upon the real world designs of early flintlock weapons. I don't buy it.

 

IMO, if these guys that can make walking, talking and fighting bots out of steam boilers and gears got their hands on some gunpowder, we would expect to see a steampunk M16 or something, which would instantly become the standard infantry weapon and change the whole setting to the point where we might as well be playing splintercell.

 

That's not even considering the plotholes that pop up when you have magic and gunpowder coexisting too. It would be pretty easy for a mage to ignite all the black powder in an enemy gun; just make a little spark.

 

So I would vote against the existence of gunpowder as we know it. Too many plotholes.

 

Pnuematic crossbow!

I would not mind seeing some interesting projectiles on the bots though. Think about this if you would:

 

These bots have a central boiler, and use pressurized steam to drive gears and make the bots walk around. Pressurized gas can also shoot things out of a tube (witness the BB gun). It's not that much of a jump in logic for bots to have a "pnuematic" bolt gun, or something like that. It could take a few seconds between shots because it has to build up the pressure again, diverting steam output from the boiler. This weapon would be about as powerful/accurate as a heavy crossbow. Also the bolts could be fire/gas tipped, or poison on impact.

[oDDity]

Plot holes my ass.

 

You're leaving out the idea that gun power and guns are a recent inport from a far away land - just like they came from China to Europe in our world. It takes a while for these thing to be improved and to take over from existing weapons.

You just aren't looking at the big picture, neither cronologically or geographically. Stop thinking small. This is an entire planet we're talking about here, and they have large sailing ships, so global trade is obviously happening.

You talk about the entire Thief universe like it consists of 10 square miles of land surrounded by a vacuum.

What about the stuff in flashbombs? That could be some sort of igniting power.

THe Builders should not have guns, they are in the hands of the elite mecenary guards - they have been to far away lands on campaign and brought back these new fangled weapons from fallen enemies.

Also the Industrialists would probably have aquired some for their workshops, finding out how they work and how to improve them. The bots may be fitted with some flintlock variations.

:Like all worlds, this is an evolving, continually changing one.

[sparhawk]

New technology in the hands of mercenaries doesn't really make sense. IMO new technology is usually introduced by rich people who can efford to pay for it and from there it will be handed down until it reaches mercenaries as well. Unless mercenaries are a seperate guild which can control such things. Even if they are elite that doesn't change this much. If you say that elite mercenaries can have it because they are widely traveled, which could be logical, this would mean that only a few of them will have it, because it is unlikely that all of the traveled far enough. And of course how do they supply? Travelling can explain why they have it, but now how they can sustain it. They are not merchants, travelling regularly to resupply. So there must be more of an infrastructure or a totally different explanation.

[oDDity]

The world has sailing ships and docks, so there's obviosuly trading going on. THe recipe for gunpower is extremely simple anyway, and the three ingredients are common.

You can easily imagine the mercenary armies bringing back many guns from battles, and selling or trading them.

Our game is set at the dawn of a new age, when gunpower and the gun is about to take over from the bow, but both yet co-exist.

[oDDity]

And I see no reason why the origin of guns has to be explained in intricate detail, when the advanced bots and cameras of the mechanists just suddenly appeared from nowhere in T2.

Guns are only about 1000 times more fitting, likely and believable than bots and cameras, but yet again I hear shouts of " LGS were Gods, they never made a bad decision, everything they introduced into the game was perfection, and belongs there 100%, anyone else's idea, no matter how realistic or likely, would make a joke of the entire Thief universe'

Edited April 20, 2005 by oDDity

[sparhawk]

Maybe you can provide a link because no matter how hard I strain, I don't hear such a thing.

[Macsen]

This is really interesting in terms of what people expect from genres. I think that the Thief world is primarily a medieval fantasy world. Although it has elements of stonepunk/steampunk in it, all the elements that seem 'right' to us still fit inside our expectations for a medieval fantasy world. So even though the combat bots were mechanical, they were still accepted as outlandish 'monsters', which is perfectlt at home in the medieval fantasy genre. Guns however, and any modern thing that errs on the realistic and 'un-monsterous', with no supernatural element inherent to it whatsoever, doesn't feel as if it should fit the genre.

[SneaksieDave]

Yikes! I didn't realize a casual dropping of an idea would be taken so seriously.

 

The Mechanites are basically mechanical geniuses to do the things with Steam power that they do...

I think that is probably the strongest argument against gunpowder. It would almost invalidate their work, making it "no big deal" anymore.

 

For the record, while I did mention it to start things, I'm not really a fan of using it. My original musing was just for the cannonball bots have bullets instead.