Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Taking a step back... from the edge


Bikerdude

Recommended Posts

Think what you like of me, but Melan is one of the most level-headed and even-tempered mappers around. He is not the kind of person to explode over a "simple misunderstanding". Anyone tempted to judge the situation that way should, at a minimum, read what actually happened. It's certainly not an example of something "being misread". And it is far from an isolated incident.

 

Bikerdude's own account of the problem (which should be read by anyone wanting to make informed comments, even though I would argue it has multiple, rather self-serving inaccuracies) lists five different people who have been pushed to either angry reactions or leaving the community entirely by interactions with Bikerdude--within just the last two years. That's a startling number, and there are other instances of people leaving for the same reason not even mentioned in that account. That is a significant problem far beyond the occasional squabble between team members (the loss of SteveL, one of our top level coders, is especially bitter). To characterize it as "language differences" is just unhelpful.

 

Multiple people have spoken directly to Bikerdude for years now, both in private and in public, trying to communicate a simple message--don't change other people's work without their permission--yet it continues to happen. That's the message Airship Ballet tried to send three years ago. It's the message I tried to send more times than I can count. Several other team members have tried. There were entire threads devoted to this in the development forums. And yet the message just doesn't get through. Each time it happens again the frustration grows. Melan is just the most recent in a long line of people getting angry about this same behaviour. What happens next time?

So it only is about Bikerdude annoying some authors by wasting his time toying around with someone elses missions - too much (because, he got invited for some work after all)?

Looks to me, like he can't let go of missions, he is touching after getting into the flow of creativity. I would expect that to be a rather common trait along creative people. And i would also expect, that there indeed are people who literally just can't stop it. So either just don't give him missions to "fix" or just let him play and keep reminding him, that too much "help" leads to the result going into the waste bin instead of the TDM server.

 

I get, that it is inconvenient (but not more than that) to have over-enthusiastic contributors lacking self-control in the community. But such a situation is only treatening if it is untreated and gets mixed with massive overreaction and assumption of bad intent for a while. Just don't overreact and don't assume bad intent (hint is valid for all sides including lurkers and otherwise uninvolved commenters like me).

 

I recommend having a "moderator", which should not be an author (conflicts of interest) and would not even need actual forum moderation rights. Such an "official" could step in to deescalate the really-easy-to-solve "situations" that seem to be haunting this community and leading to contributers actually quitting (still hard to believe, but anything is possible when dealing with humans).

 

If you really want to get all-in serious about it, you could even make up some rules about respecting others' works and have misbehaving people get banned for a week (not too long, not too short) to make it seem like you really care - so that there is a "retribution" to calm the really vengeful authors (i would not expect to find such people in this community though).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Acting in the best interests of the people who have not chosen to speak on the issue, it would be good for everyone's health just to mind their own business if there is so much friction and not engage in psychological supplications for returning. What's done is done. Life moves on. Whoever wished to hear apologies already has already drawn the conclusions they wanted to.

Besides, it's unrealistic to expect everyone mutually to be so puritan.

 

Also, don't forget that text distorts the real intonation one would have when normally having a conversation tete-a-tete.

 

If people continue work on TDM, it would be good to have the least contact possible if the conflict is impossible to remedy. We must take it easy because life is too short to be angry for its span.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

badge?user=andarson

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect there's more than just Bikerdude being overbearing with regards to others people's work. As public as things have been, I get the strong suspicion that there's more stories that won't get shared here because it's too disrespectful to those involved, and frankly none of our business. I could be wrong of course, but if it were that easy to just work things out then it wouldn't have progressed to the stage that it has.

There at least should be some communication fuckup - because there always is on the Internet.

And there indeed might be more going on than is visible (that possibility always exists, so it exists here too).

But i expect, that assuming more to be going on than actually is going on as a main cause of the grief that made contributors leave. So i would suggest to risk beeing naive and just assume that there is no evilness involved - because assuming otherwise seems to make the tiniest problems impossible to solve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's so easy to get emotional over perceived display of disrespect in the Internet.

Can't help but wonder what happened on the infamous RL meetup between B and SteveL, as well as why Melan wouldn't just have discarded B's unwanted changes and exchanged apologies.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

why Melan wouldn't just have discarded B's unwanted changes and exchanged apologies.

 

 

Melan had nothing to apologize for. Bikerdude was asked not to change the mission. He made significant changes anyway, gave the revised mission out to other people to test, and then lied about being given permission to do so.

 

As for "getting emotional", It may be difficult for non-artists to relate to, but artistic creations--especially ones you spend months or even years working on--are an extension of the artist. They are very personal things. Fan missions in particular can be long and very frustrating undertakings--you're creating a story, characters, and a small world, all from your own imagination. No one here is getting payed for any of that creative effort--the only payoff is having something you created, warts and all, out in the world for people to enjoy. To have someone else go in and start making drastic changes without your permission is perhaps the most disrespectful thing you could do to an artist. And when it's continually done by the same person, despite repeated requests to stop, there isn't a creative community in the world that would take that casually.

 

Melan's frustration was entirely justified.

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another piece of information that was not clear (at least to me) up until now was that the altered mission was given out for testing. Otherwise it would have been not as big a problem, as any unnecessary changes made could have been discarded.

 

I think it is very hard (if not impossible) to grasp the whole situation as one not involved. There are too many bits of information that are left out (not intentionally, but still it happens), so I think it is best to just let it rest. The people invovled have made their decisions and/or apologies and discussing it further won't help anyone, I think.

Edited by Destined
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

To have someone else go in and start making drastic changes without your permission is perhaps the most disrespectful thing you could do to an artist.

 

+1000.

 

That's why I proposed having kind of locked packages with missions, although maybe just map files would be a better idea. I wouldn't mind my assets being used elsewhere, perhaps even with modifications, as long as I'm credited as an author. That's basically the purpose of existence of communities like this one. But someone tinkering with my map? That's a big, big nope.

 

And if map files can't be locked before publishing, maybe we should start putting disclaimers in map info files, like "by downloading and running this pk4 file you agree to:" and here goes a list of what you don't want other people to do with your map.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's why I proposed having kind of locked packages with missions, although maybe just map files would be a better idea.

 

oDDity was asking for something like that as well, back in the early days. The problem is that it is completely impossible to implement. Effectively it requires a DRM system, and we all know by now that DRM is largely ineffective even when all of the code is completely secret and proprietary, which TDM's code isn't.

 

The concepts of DRM and open-source are entirely and unavoidably contradictory, which is why open-source DVD and BluRay playback software can never have an officially licensed player key, and has to rely on cracking the DRM.

 

The closest you could achieve regarding the "protected maps" idea is to give each map a GPG signature using the author's private key, which could then be verified by the software and used to show some kind of "official author-signed product" badge. This would at least make it clear to players if a version of the map they were playing was not the authorised version distributed by the author. But there's absolutely nothing you could do, even in theory, to technically prevent people from making modifications if they wanted to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alright, so there's no point in that kind of system. We have to rely on common decency of the community, or define usage limitations in disclaimers (I guess it also has to be in line with GPL license).

 

(By the way, recently nbohr upgraded a couple of old maps for EAX system, with authors' permission, I hope.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The missions at Moddb are marked as "Unofficial".

 

I am currently working on Patently Dangerous to improve my initial changes (with Dema's blessings).

 

"Thieves" is really a TDM Team map as it was worked on by Silencium, RailGun, Fidcal, Springheel, and Tels

(and probably a few others). So I'd have license to add it to the repo without author feedback but I have it up there as a courtesy to Silencium.

 

I worked on Behind Closed Doors and Biker gave blessings to add EFX to it.

 

So I haven't really strayed too far from the principle implied here but I may privately ping authors about EFX updates

once I've gone through Team missions where Team members would have the authority to improve them.

  • Like 2

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alright, so there's no point in that kind of system. We have to rely on common decency of the community, or define usage limitations in disclaimers (I guess it also has to be in line with GPL license).

 

I just realised that there is actually a potential half-way solution that might give you some of what you want, if we forget about DRM-style "locking" and focus on "compiling" instead.

 

When the game loads a map, it only uses the .map file for loading entities, while the compiled map geometry is in the .proc file which you distribute in the same PK4. So in theory you could distribute a "stripped .map" which didn't contain any of the original brushes or patches, only the entities, which shouldn't affect the game as long as the up-to-date geometry is in the proc file. Anyone loading the map into DR would find that it contained only entities, including static models, but none of the brush or patch-based level geometry which would make it largely useless if the intention was to steal the map and use it as the basis of their own version.

 

If this worked (and it could be tested quite easily just by editing a .map file with a text editor, removing all of the brushes and patches while being careful not to touch the entity information), there could be an option in DR to "Save stripped .map" which would save this version without level geometry. It wouldn't even need to be sold as a "author locking" system, but purely an optimisation designed to reduce the size of the PK4.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Use a license. Perfect middle ground. Done.
Anything done against the license would obviously be disallowed here.
If you feel the need to DRM your content, then maybe you shouldn't be contributing to The Dark Mod in the first place.
Any DRM seems contrary to the very nature of TDM and I'm sure many members including myself will be heavily against it.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

OrbWeaver, that sounds like a good idea, so the .map (and .darkradiant?) file will only be needed to edit a level in DR, while it won't be needed to play the mission. That will be enough, I think.

 

Durandall, I'm all for sharing and contributing, but I also believe you should have at least some degree of creative control over your stuff. You don't have much control over reception of your work, and nothing is ever truly complete, so finishing your work is more of a decision. When everyone can edit anything you do, that decision is taken away from you, and basically noone is an author in this sense.

 

It's different in game studios where collaborative work is the key. In "classic" mapper communities, that sense of authorship is still strong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think the issue here is anyone actually stealing a mission. I guess Bikerdude is just a perfectionist who likes to improve on other people's work, even if told to not do so. As far as I know any new mission must be included into the download list by someone from the team, so if the original author doesn't want an update by whomever, he should just tell the team member this and the modified map will not be included in the official list. Problem solved!

Edited by wesp5
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The situation had nothing to do with maps being stolen or repurposed. It was more about making changes to the maps far beyond optimizing them for performance. Making creative changes to the lighting after the mapper had specifically lit areas a certain way for gameplay.

 

These were maps that had not yet been released. While Bikers work in terms of offering to help optimize were always appreciated, charging ahead and making unwanted creative changes were not appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The missions at Moddb are marked as "Unofficial".

 

"Thieves" is really a TDM Team map as it was worked on by Silencium, RailGun, Fidcal, Springheel, and Tels

(and probably a few others). So I'd have license to add it to the repo without author feedback but I have it up there as a courtesy to Silencium.

 

While "Thieves" could certainly be a grey area, hosting "unofficial" copies of missions alongside "official" ones is not a general practice that I think we should endorse. The last few posts are heading into ground we covered back in this thread.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While Bikers work in terms of offering to help optimize were always appreciated, charging ahead and making unwanted creative changes were not appreciated.

This is exactly how I understood it (and I had the same problems with people helping me with new Bloodlines maps), but still, the original author can always say whether the original version or an updated version comes on the download list, no? Or could Bikerdude do this himself too?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How much damage could have been avoided if a due collaboration process was established.

Changes by other people had to be accepted or declined by mission author.

It's a simple one click procedure. If anything, it should have been Biker offended by his contribution been discarded. An explanation given. Biker redoing his stuff on a lesser scale and learning from his mistakes.

None leaves the mod. No forum outages. No toxic fallout.

 

Someone needs to take responsibility for escalating routine work tension into a supernova explosion. And it's not Biker, he was the one getting shit done.

 

Biker made an effort and conceded he made a number of mistakes.

Can anyone else?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Or could Bikerdude do this himself too?

That is the crux of it.

 

Biker was not only a busy worker, he was a mission maintainer and was an ambassador for the intentions of the TDM team.

 

This became a pretty bad pattern:

 

Mapper: Here's my new mission beta!

Biker: Pretty good but this, this and this are not acceptable

Mapper: Can you help fix?

Biker: Here's your fix <radical remake of the whole mission>

Mapper: That's not even my mission anymore? Why'd you do that?

Biker: It wasn't good enough because of x, y, and Z

Mapper: Can we just upload "my" mission anyway?

Biker: Doesn't meet TDM standards. So no. The reputation of the project, etc.

 

We sorta encouraged that practice historically by reserving the right to exclude missions that were

deemed "too poor to host"...

 

...but it should never have escalated to that scenario and Biker should've

brought up mission QA concerns for Team review.

 

That way, Springheel, grayman, etc could decide "you're being too strict" "this is good enough" etc.

 

That was probably already an implied mandate but most of the Team has been

too busy for this type of QA work so they left Biker to his own devices.

  • Like 2

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think Orbweaver's solution is pretty good.

 

It's not really DRM just some sorta obfuscation of the map data.

 

I would hope that most mappers would offer their source map to the community anyway

but having both the "security option" and optimization benefits of that change would be cool

as long as the classic behavior is available too.

  • Like 1

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guys, you are making mountains out of molehills. The original issue was that Biker was helping others with their maps and due to officiousness, bad communication or however you wanna call it made changes to not yet released missions before or during beta-testing. We never had the issue of people stealing contents from others or just taking a mission, changing its content and then uploading the result as their own. Talking about DRM-like stuff to prevent things that doesn't even happen anyways is completely unneccessary.

Of course it has nothing to do with what actually happened. It is just a strawman. But no sane coder will dare to include DRM in a GPLed code base and therefore nobody will be able to use it anyway, so there is no harm in venting some feelings by burning that strawman. It should be safe to ignore it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recent Status Updates

    • Petike the Taffer  »  DeTeEff

      I've updated the articles for your FMs and your author category at the wiki. Your newer nickname (DeTeEff) now comes first, and the one in parentheses is your older nickname (Fieldmedic). Just to avoid confusing people who played your FMs years ago and remember your older nickname. I've added a wiki article for your latest FM, Who Watches the Watcher?, as part of my current updating efforts. Unless I overlooked something, you have five different FMs so far.
      · 0 replies
    • Petike the Taffer

      I've finally managed to log in to The Dark Mod Wiki. I'm back in the saddle and before the holidays start in full, I'll be adding a few new FM articles and doing other updates. Written in Stone is already done.
      · 4 replies
    • nbohr1more

      TDM 15th Anniversary Contest is now active! Please declare your participation: https://forums.thedarkmod.com/index.php?/topic/22413-the-dark-mod-15th-anniversary-contest-entry-thread/
       
      · 0 replies
    • JackFarmer

      @TheUnbeholden
      You cannot receive PMs. Could you please be so kind and check your mailbox if it is full (or maybe you switched off the function)?
      · 1 reply
    • OrbWeaver

      I like the new frob highlight but it would nice if it was less "flickery" while moving over objects (especially barred metal doors).
      · 4 replies
×
×
  • Create New...