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A few thoughts


GilGiy

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For me, combat in TDM serves to enable me to reload myself instead of beeing forced to by a failure screen.

It's not hack'n slash game. Combat should be hard even for experienced players and might or might not be awkward to do. And of course you never should be forced to do it.

So combat is fine as it is now. Might even make it a bit harder because AluminumHaste showed us, that you can defeat tens of guards with good timing. And you definitely should not be able to do that in a first person sneaker.

 

Agreed but some people are proverbial slowpokes like me.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Nothing against some blackjack hitbox size slider on the options page though.

I would like that too or better even the way I suggested it in my own post. This makes us already three people here if that is enough to consider it! Otherwise, Destined, can you please give me info and help about how to add such a different KO immunity to my exstinguishable oil-lamps patch?

Edited by wesp5
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You assume that i have any idea what a spawnarg, or AI definition files are. Also, some input about the mod, and areas where it could be improved, or a discussion if other people think the same or not should also be fine, right?

I agree that changes to the mod should always be discussed an considered, but as the majority of people seems to not deem any changes to blackjacking necessary, it should not stop you from changing it for yourself. It is also true that I might take some knowledge for granted, that may not be there. But I am willing to help you with that, if you want to change it and am also willing to explain about spawnargs and definition files, if you are interested. If you are only interested in the solution, I am also willing to simply provide the changed files.

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I would like that too or better even the way I suggested it in my own post. This makes us already three people here if that is enough to consider it! Otherwise, Destined, can you please give me info and help about how to add such a different KO immunity to my exstinguishable oil-lamps patch?

Of course. What exaclty would you like to change? Just the hitbod size or other properties as well?

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Agreed but some people are proverbial slowpokes like me.

No problem. You are not expected to actually use that sword in combat in almost all missions (exceptions are the training mission and one with a forced duel). The player only carries a sword because everyone and his dog has one in TDM's game world (and you had one in the other thiefs).

There definitely are games with more easy and more satisfying sword fighting out there (might even try some mainstream hack'n slasher like Shadow of War - looks good, is fun and lets you kill dozens of orcs without even needing to have mediocre reflexes).

And blackjacking is dead easy even for us slowpokes. Also there is the bow as another easy option to gas or kill AI. I never use the sword for actual combat in TDM (iirc i even glitched around the forced duel in that one mission somehow).

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Of course. What exaclty would you like to change? Just the hitbod size or other properties as well?

I don't really have issues with the hitbox size, at least I can't remember ;), but what I like to have for a patch is:

 

1) normal helmeted guards are not immune to blackjacking from behind regardless of their alertness state

2) all guards are front and side immune to blackjacking only once the weapon has completely been drawn

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From the top of my head, 1) is pretty easy. This is simply setting the KO immunity to 0 for each head (I will check the exact spawnargs, when I am home again). 2) should also not be too difficult, but I will have to look up, which spawnargs have to be changed; or rather which spawnargs control the change of the KO angle. I will do that this evening or tomorrow morning, depending on when I find the time. I can also elaborate on what spawnarg defines what (which is also mainly copy/pasting the descriptions from the def-files). That way, you can make further changes if necessary more easily.

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Ok, I had a look at the KO immunity spawnargs. The spawnarg needed for your first project is "KO_alert_immune". If this is set to "1" the AI is immune to being blackjacked from any angle as soon as the alert state is high enough (alert state 4 or 5 for most guards, which equals to weapon drawn and/or in combat; see the AI stats page section Perception and Alarms). If you change both instances of this spawnarg in the file "tdm_ai_guard_proguard.def" to "0", it should be applied to all guards and archers.

 

For your second change, you will have to change the spawnarg "ko_angle_horiz", which is set to "110" for all guard heads. If you change this to "360", the respective head will be KO-able from every direction, as long as it is not alerted. As soon as it is alerted, the angle changes to the value given for the spawnarg "ko_angle_alert_horiz", which is also "110" by default, but is obsolete by default as the guards are immune to KO in that state anyway. Note that these values are not set in the definition of the guards, but in the definition of the heads. Thus, you will need to change these spawnargs seperately for each head in "tdm_ai_heads.def" and "tdm_ai_heads_springheel.def". Also, be careful to not change the values for the elite guard. These have their ko_angle values set to "0", to make sure that they cannot be knocked out.

 

I hope these suggestions change the KO behaviour in the way you want it to. I did not test it myself, but just went from the descriptions of the spawnargs. If it does not work, tell me, then I will have another look.

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Ok, I had a look at the KO immunity spawnargs. The spawnarg needed for your first project is "KO_alert_immune". If this is set to "1" the AI is immune to being blackjacked from any angle as soon as the alert state is high enough (alert state 4 or 5 for most guards, which equals to weapon drawn and/or in combat; see the AI stats page section Perception and Alarms). If you change both instances of this spawnarg in the file "tdm_ai_guard_proguard.def" to "0", it should be applied to all guards and archers.

I think I will start with that one first because it looks easier to do and I need to test how much the gameplay is affected. Maybe it's already enough and the other isn't needed at all! I found the def file, but what are all the other guard types? Does this not affect any of these too?

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I am not sure, which other guard types you mean. In "tdm_ai_guard_proguard.def" there are two definitions: atdm:ai_proguard and atdm:ai_proguard_archer (and the ragdoll, but this is not relevant for us). These proguard definitions are the basis for all guards and all archers. So, if you define a spawnarg here, each other guard type will be affected (i.e. city watch as well as builder guards as well as all others that use the proguard as a basis). But I thought that this is what you wanted? It would not really make sense, that only helmeted guards are not immune to knockout, would it? One would rather suspect that helmeted guards are harder to knock out than guards without helmets. And elite guards won't be affected as they have the knockout angle of 0 as a failsafe.

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I am not sure, which other guard types you mean. In "tdm_ai_guard_proguard.def" there are two definitions: atdm:ai_proguard and atdm:ai_proguard_archer (and the ragdoll, but this is not relevant for us). These proguard definitions are the basis for all guards and all archers.

Well, I tested it on some random mission ("Down by the riverside") and already the first thug I met couldn't be blackjacked once alerted! So I'll change this for all def files with such an immune line (six altogether) and will see how that goes :).

 

P.S.: I just played the beginning of that mission with all guard immunities removed and it works wonderfully! It feels much more realistic without people becoming magically ininvicible once they are alerted. It's still dangerous to blackjack anyone attacking you though, as you can easily loose much health until you hit home, but at least you have a fighting chance now. Many thanks, Destined!

Edited by wesp5
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Oddly enough, the same effect could be achieved before with the sword, a single blow to the head would take out most enemies, so you had a fighting chance even when you were being bested by an elite guard, or against those damn builders and their thick armor. The damage values have since been modified to make it harder to kill alerted/fighting guards, demanding several hits. So this moddification would actually make the little blackjack more powerful than the steel sword. ;)

 

Is there a place we can post, advertise TDM addon mods? It would be good to take Destined's research, the edited config files and post it as an addon pk4 people could paste in their folders and enjoy if they wanted.

Edited by RPGista
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Well, I tested it on some random mission ("Down by the riverside") and already the first thug I met couldn't be blackjacked once alerted! So I'll change this for all def files with such an immune line (six altogether) and will see how that goes :).

 

P.S.: I just played the beginning of that mission with all guard immunities removed and it works wonderfully! It feels much more realistic without people becoming magically ininvicible once they are alerted. It's still dangerous to blackjack anyone attacking you though, as you can easily loose much health until you hit home, but at least you have a fighting chance now. Many thanks, Destined!

You're very welcome. I am glad I could help and that it works as intended. Which were the other instances that had this line? I am just wondering if these were set there just to be sure. The archers in the proguard def-file, for example, would actually not need this, as they also usethe proguard definition, so I am just curious.

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You're very welcome. I am glad I could help and that it works as intended. Which were the other instances that had this line?

I found similar lines in tdm_ai_guard_citywatch, tdm_ai_guard_citywatch_elite, tdm_ai_guard_generic, tdm_ai_guard_moor and tdm_ai_guard_thug. The latter was probably the one I encountered in the mission! Do you know which of these are the guards with the full helmet that should always be immune? Also should we do something about the sword that is supposed to be worse off now? Shouldn't this knock out any guard as well if hit on the head?

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Is there a place we can post, advertise TDM addon mods?

My addons are on ModDB and I think I'll merge them into some kind of Unofficial Patch instead of releasing lots of smaller ones. I might add some info to the readme how to disable certain features if you don't like them. Maybe there is more stuff that can be added this way although it will not be allowed into the core game? I remember throwing holy water as a last resort for example. Destined, can this be done as easily?

Edited by wesp5
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I found similar lines in tdm_ai_guard_citywatch, tdm_ai_guard_citywatch_elite, tdm_ai_guard_generic, tdm_ai_guard_moor and tdm_ai_guard_thug. The latter was probably the one I encountered in the mission! Do you know which of these are the guards with the full helmet that should always be immune? Also should we do something about the sword that is supposed to be worse off now? Shouldn't this knock out any guard as well if hit on the head?

Hm, that is quite curious. As I said, these should inherit the arg from the proguard definition. Consequently, the spawnargs need to be changed for them as well, because defnitions in an entity will overrule inherited args. The ones that should always be immune are all guards with "elite" in their name. But it might be that they are immune to knockout in general (will have a look at it later). Regarding the sword: I have no idea what we could do about it. If I undertood correctly, the main problem now is, that the sword is less useful, because you can knockout alerted guards, while you could only kill them before. But I can think of no way to circumvent this...

 

My addons are on ModDB and I think I'll merge them into some kind of Unofficial Patch instead of releasing lots of smaller ones. I might add some info to the readme how to disable certain features if you don't like them. Maybe there is more stuff that can be added this way although it will not be allowed into the core game? I remember throwing holy water as a last resort for example. Destined, can this be done as easily?

Throwing holy water would need a new entity or a redefinition of the old one, as the mechanism completely different. I don't think there is an easier way. If you want to change the mechanism, I would try to use the flash bomb as a basis, give it the holy water flask model, the water arrow result on hit, and add a holy stim. But this is just from the top of my head. But, as I said, this would change the mechanic to something more similar to the original Thief and is not intended here.

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Hm, that is quite curious. As I said, these should inherit the arg from the proguard definition. Consequently, the spawnargs need to be changed for them as well, because defnitions in an entity will overrule inherited args. The ones that should always be immune are all guards with "elite" in their name. But it might be that they are immune to knockout in general (will have a look at it later). Regarding the sword: I have no idea what we could do about it. If I undertood correctly, the main problem now is, that the sword is less useful, because you can knockout alerted guards, while you could only kill them before. But I can think of no way to circumvent this...

As for the elite guard, do you know any missions where those are around so I can test if they still are immune until you have checked that yourself? As for the sword, if an alerted guard attacks you with his weapon and you try to fight him with the blackjack you will be killed even with the new setting! It makes blackjacking alerted guards from behind possible or while they draw their weapon, but once they fight you, you will not get through, so the sword is still your only defence in that case. As for the holy water grenade, this was just something I remembered. It looks like too much effort for a last resort gimmick...

Edited by wesp5
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. So this moddification would actually make the little blackjack more powerful than the steel sword. ;)

 

By a significant margin. AI can't block a blackjack and it drops them immediately with no death cry and nothing to clean up; if you can KO an alert guard by hitting them in the head from any direction, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever use a sword again.

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if you can KO an alert guard by hitting them in the head from any direction, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever use a sword again.

A thief shouldn't need to use a sword, at least I never do ;). Also as I wrote, once you are attacked your blackjacking doesn't come through and you die...

Edited by wesp5
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By a significant margin. AI can't block a blackjack and it drops them immediately with no death cry and nothing to clean up; if you can KO an alert guard by hitting them in the head from any direction, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever use a sword again.

With the setup as it is right now, AI are still immune to KO from the front, no matter the alert state. So, you will still have to get into the back of the guard, which is difficult, if they are fighting you. The blackjacking from every direction was thought of only for AI that have not yet been alerted, but even that seems to not be necessary.

 

As for the elite guard, do you know any missions where those are around so I can test if they still are immune until you have checked that yourself? [...] As for the holy water grenade, this was just something I remembered. It looks like too much effort for a last resort gimmick...

Unfortunately, I have no idea, in which mission an elite guard can be found.

I don't think it is possible to be able to throw the holy water flask as a last resort and keep the usual water arrow changing behaviour, as both require some kind of activation from the inventory, but there is only one key for that. Consequently, you will only be able to have one of these behaviours at the same time.

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With the setup as it is right now, AI are still immune to KO from the front, no matter the alert state. So, you will still have to get into the back of the guard, which is difficult, if they are fighting you. The blackjacking from every direction was thought of only for AI that have not yet been alerted, but even that seems to not be necessary.

 

You would probably want to make AI ko'able from any direction (even from the front) when you are in total darkness and they cant see you at all, theres no reason then for the blackjack not to work from any direction (as they are relaxed, not alerted). PS: Also, if you hit them on the head/face with a brick, thrown from the shadows where they cant see you, that would do it. But I dont know if KOs from object physics work the same as the blackjack mechanics.

 

If the blackjack wont work head on in a fight, than I guess its ok, some people might like it that you can still get the jump on a guard that is searching for you, if you can stealth your way and surprise him from behind.

Edited by RPGista
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As for the elite guard, do you know any missions where those are around so I can test if they still are immune until you have checked that yourself?

 

I may well be confused but I believe you can find one in the Mission 1: A New Job, in front of the tavern...

Edited by GilGiy
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if you can KO an alert guard by hitting them in the head from any direction, I can't see any reason why anyone would ever use a sword again.

For style! ;)

 

Maybe, obsoleting the sword is the goal. I am fine with reloading if a guard starts to fight me. Others like killing them with the sword. And some want to be able to just continue their blackjacking spree without waiting for the reload. Nothing wrong with cheating in a single player game...

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You would probably want to make AI ko'able from any direction (even from the front) when you are in total darkness and they cant see you at all, theres no reason then for the blackjack not to work from any direction (as they are relaxed, not alerted). PS: Also, if you hit them on the head/face with a brick, thrown from the shadows where they cant see you, that would do it. But I dont know if KOs from object physics work the same as the blackjack mechanics.

Making the ability to blackjack guards not only depending on the alert state, but additionally the visibility of the player would require some big changes and can unfortunately not be done by simply changing some spawnargs. Thus, this idea, although it sounds nice, is rather difficult to implement.

Regarding physical objects: It is possible to KO guards by letting heavy objects (like crates) fall on them. Stuff you can actually throw is generally considered too small and won't have this effect. Also, I think this would be too powerful, as it would make gas arrows and even the blackjack obsolete. Why should you risk being caught sneaking up on a guard, when you can simply throw stuff?

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Maybe, obsoleting the sword is the goal. I am fine with reloading if a guard starts to fight me.

I have been testing Destined's changes for the last few days and as I wrote, if a guard attacks it's still loading time if you can't fight with the sword which I can't. What annoyed me before and what is now fixed is that you couldn't blackjack guards that were completely unaware of you just because some "awareness flag" was set...

Edited by wesp5
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