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peter_spy

Copypasting vs. GPL/CC 3.0 reuse or adapt – your thoughts

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There was a recent controversy, and a heated exchange in the betatesting forum, which might have gone largely unnoticed, and I think the topic itself is pretty important for the community. The whole thing starts here: http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/19282-cleaning-up-the-neighbourhood-beta/?p=430318

In essence, mapper copypasted portions of his previous map into a new one, along with portions of work by another mapper, with changes ranging from slight/cosmetic to none. Two examples:

 

Clipboard01.jpg Clipboard02.jpg

 

Since I was the only one speaking up in that thread, I'd like to hear our mapper community stance on such practices. First, does this even constitute reuse, remix, or adaptation? It looks more like a collection in CC definition. And, is there a way to protect your work under GPL/CC from such practices? (paging Demagogue...)

 

Second, I'd just like to hear your personal opinion on this.

 

To me, this is serious, quite dangerous precedent. It's not using abandoned work with sb else's blessing. It's also not an homage, as there's little creativity being shown here. This is copypasting and slightly tweaking sb else's work to speed up your mapping process. To me, it's self-degrading and admitting creative failure. Doing it with sections of your own map might just be poor taste and your personal matter, but doing it with someone else's work? That's whole another level. Do we have to start protecting .map files somehow, or have some kind of community guidelines in place on this?

Edited by Judith

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TL;DR:

How many times have you seen a door in an FM? They're all pretty much the same door.

My personal opinion on using any part of someone's level design is that it's a matter of being respectful of the other person, therefore asking permission and giving credit if it is granted.

I'd never copy someone's architecture or level design geometry, because that's lazy and boring.

If I'd like to use some script I don't understand - I'll message the person and ask permission to use it, and perhaps an explanation as to how it works so I can not simply copy it but tune it to my needs.
Usually I'll post in newbie's help and hail mary for an answer that is rarely received, because no-one knows what the fuck I'm talking or they're busy doing their own stuff - so why care about my stuff?

Maybe Stumpy or Obs will have a lead. But otherwise - this shit is difficult to figure out sometimes, so I'll download greebo's starter kit and fidcal's pre-made briefing and hack that up so it's the right shape and fits into my FM that I'd like to play and give myself difficulties and experiement and learn.

If it's abandoned, then it's left there for people to do this.

If it's a WiP, then it's a leak and - unless it's a studio such as FUbisoft, that deserve it because some dick in middle management was a dick and the company backed them - if it was my design, I'd be pissed, but the gate's open and the horse is out and there's no closing Pandora's box.

If that's the case - it being a steal and a breach of trust - then it's no place for anyone to go sticking their nose and it's beef between the person who took it and the person who made it only, no-one else's - so there's no need to get upset about it, as it's not my problem - it's theirs. Or for community leaders to decide if they will allow the FM to be listed, even though they know it's the same as blah.

Regarding TDM FMs, because there's no way to say, "oi - that's mine - you can't do that", there's nothing anyone can do to stop it. Just gotta suck it up and learn to not go public so soon next time.



If I don't want people to take anything, because I would like to be the one to say, please can this be an FM for download and because I've put in lots of work and figured some stuff I've not seen before (rather than yet another mansion) - I go through my mapping thread and put "//" in every note I've made and remove all the screenshots and .map text and scripts and notes and hide them where no-one can see them. It pissed people off when I did that, but it was because it was starting to spoil.

But if I release an FM - it's not "mine", because 99% of the stuff I didn't make.
All I did was the 1% cobbling together some pieces and scripts and odds and ends.

It's "The Dark Mod Team" - all I did was chuck together a bunch of stuff they made possible.

Once it's released, then people can take what they want, because that's what the license says they can do.

But until that point - if I want to keep my secrets a secret - I'm not putting anything where anyone can see it. That's the whole point of secrets. I'll get a few players from outside the community to test it and then - if I think it's ok - probably run it past someone who knows better like Bikerdude before polishing off the things that need doing that I didn't get right / didn't understand / whatever.

If I decide I can't be bothered to continue with my campaigns or FMs - I'll make public and post a link to my DR blog and someone can spend a few weeks reading all that crap, or download the pk4s and half-finished .maps and stuff and use it for whatever they want - because I've abandoned it.



TDM's license is https://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-3.0.en.html not CC-BY-3.0 (which allows commerical use), which means you can copy and redistribute the material in any medium or format and adapt, remix, tranform or build upon the material for any purpose, so long as you don't charge for it.

The licensing agreement is there to protect the source code from being used in a commercial product, and advise that you can do whatever the fuck you want so long as you don't charge for it.

Therefore, I'd say it was a matter of etiquette.
There's no way to stop someone ripping off an FM, due to the way it is licensed.

If the FM is released, it's fair game for people to pick at - and they do.

Scripts, prefabs, textures, models, samples, music, anything.

But if it's from a work-in-progress, then that is exploiting a leak from beta stage, which ought to only be done to asshole studios who've fucked you over, such as Ubisoft (but here, we're talking about the whole game, not a level designed using a level designer provided by the game).

In the case of an FM, I would consider this a breach of trust and probably not allow that person to participate in play-testing any FM I would be wanting to release ever again.

In my view - this is the authour's screw up in showing their hand too early.

If it's from an abandoned work and etiquette hasn't been followed by at least trying to ask permission from the original creator - then, if it's from the "abandoned" pile and there's no reply, it's vultures picking at a carcass - if the person gives permission, it's fine.

If they say no - there's nothing to stop me doing it anyway, except my own sense of morals.



I might track the person down online and on social media and troll them for the next year or so and find out their name, address and telephone number and post them (from a post office on the other side of the country) a kilo of cocaine, hidden inside a package they will open and likely keep - maybe a console or something - with a receipt so it appears as a legitimate transaction, no return address and then give an anonymous tip to the police, to get them locked up for several years.

Is that too extreme? I think so... I think I just wouldn't let them play-test my levels and I would be more wary of putting my stuff online for people to see before it's released.



Look at Steam Workshop.

Most of it is ripped off the internet and just given a coat of paint and ported for use in any particular game.

But some of it contains useful mods, localisations and other things to improve upon a piece of software or game. Some of these are uploaded by people who didn't create the mod, but did so because they were the first person to get it off ModDB and stick it in the workshop.

What do they get? Nothing, except a reputation as being someone who uploads stuff - either good or bad, depending on if they take credit as creator or if they are merely wanting to share something.



Recently, someone showed me a photograph I had taken years ago, on an instagram account:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BpbuLS6FAU-/

All they've done is found it on one of the other tumblr sites that have shared it and not given a toss about where it came from. I don't know where it came from because that tumblr was deleted several years ago. I've seen other people's work "remixed" and that's vaporwave, apparently...

It happens quite often - a few times a year someone will say, hey look at this. Sometimes it's flattering, mostly I don't give a shit and neither do the other people.
It only annoys me when they take credit or if they put a filter or watermark on it - but it really pisses me off if they use it out of context or use it for promotional material or put it on a Tshirt or card or are selling prints or making money from it.

In this instance, they are using that image to further their "magazine" (which doesn't exist) to the point where they can be popular enough to start charging people money to post their work and for the artist/photographer to get 1% of the exposure that the magazine does.

If people didn't provide content to @lovewatts by paying to have their work featured - that whole system would break down. Lovewatts would have no income, because people are fucking stupid and are paying to provide them with content to make their brand stronger so they can charge more stupid people to pay to improve their brand... the people who pay to submit their pictures probably have one or two good pictures and this is their best that they pay $500 for a week on that page.

Why would I be interested in someone that only has one good picture and the rest is bullshit, when there's @lovewatts who post a really awesome thing a few times a day.

Because of the way Instagram is licensed, I can simply go to @lovewatts and post the exact same image at the same time, by taking a screenshot and sharing it. I don't have to give any attribution.

But I'd probably be seen as a fake and stealing images that aren't mine and posting them to ... idk ... be popular on the internet..?

What good does that do me, unless I'm earning $3000 a day and several month's worth of submissions and payments lined up because I'm a digest "magazine" that charges fame and attention hungry, fragile egos to get likes to validate their efforts and put another layer of cotton wool around their bullshit.

Umm....

The problem is - I've put it on the internet, so I no longer have control of the image.

Therefore, I don't put stuff on the internet at high resolution and - if I want to retain ownership - I don't put it on the internet at all.



There was that thing with the guy using Patreon for his TDM mod, which brought up a similar conversation:

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/19120-my-tdm-mod-and-patreon/?hl=licensing&do=findComment&comment=412506

There's also licensing information in the license.txt in the game:
https://svn.thedarkmod.com/svn/darkmod_src/trunk/LICENSE.txt
(the text file in the root install folder)

While this is mostly regarding the source code and assets, which cannot be used for commercial purposes (kickstarter and patreon are grey areas, as they're not exactly selling something - they're asking for money to do something), there is a section that might relate to this:

When you convey a copy of a covered work, you may at your option
remove any additional permissions from that copy, or from any part of
it. (Additional permissions may be written to require their own
removal in certain cases when you modify the work.) You may place
additional permissions on material, added by you to a covered work,
for which you have or can give appropriate copyright permission.

It's fairly non-specific and also a little contradictory, and isn't really relevant to FMs as it is to other things.

"Copyright" is only text and images - it's not the mecanics or design. That's patent.
I'm not going to pay thousands of pounds to patent a game level for a free game, the license of which states that everything I submit has to be under their license - which is free to reuse for non-commerical purposes.

Considering that every asset anyone makes and submits to TDM, from a fart sound effect to a total-conversion is umbrella'd under the same licensing agreement as everything else - copy/pasting parts of someone's level, abandoned, WIP, beta or whatever - it only says, "make sure you have permission to use anything that is copyrighted".

Since an FM is not protected in any way, the only copyright are on using any part of it for commercial use... technically - unless that person is selling the FM (which is dumb, since they're downloaded in-game, which is free), there's nothing to stop someone doing this.



I've seen a few missions where I've thought, "this is exactly the same as this" - and it turns out, it is a facsimilie of something else - and you will look in a pk4 and find the same scripts and GUI's are used from one FM to another. These are between different authours, but I just think, "oh they've had a private chat and it's ok".

I don't care - I just play the FM.

My thoughts are - if it's an abandoned work and placed into the abandoned work section, then it's fair game to dissect it or complete it or whatever.

However, etiquette and my sense of morals would at least get me messaging the person to ask if it's ok if I was to do such a thing.
If they didn't reply within a set time period - I'd go ahead and use it IF I REALLY NEEDED TO, giving credit.

But I wouldn't do that, because I didn't make it and I think it's rude to finish someone's meal without asking if they don't want the rest of their potatoes and beans.



As someone who messes around with TDM for my own amusement - I'd be a little loathe to share some of the things I've come up with until I've packaged it into a mission and it's released so that people can take it from there, because they'd be taking something I've worked hard to figure out and hasn't been implemented in an FM as yet, and (even though it really doesn't matter) they'd be FIRST! and I wouldn't be.

Hopefully they'd give credit in the authors.txt.



If I'm to release an FM for TDM for general public to play - the author is, "The Dark Mod Team", because 99% of it is going to be TDM stuff and only a few scripts and a bit of level design, maybe a texture or voice sample or score (if ever the guy finishes it...) whatever, is going to be from me.

I would have willingly submitted all the scripts, textures, samples, movies and the level design and its mechanics to TDM and the public, under the license that - anyone can use it and any part of it (including the level designs) so long as they don't charge money.



There is nowhere that explicitly describes an FM as an asset.
Only the additional content - which, to repeat myself, has to be authour's own copyright and that is given up to TDM licensing.
Which is, "it's free to use and you can do wtf you want with it, so long as you don't charge money for it".

----

Examining, for example, Thief Simulator - you can see that there are many "copypasted" elements that are freely given, such as the save function. But there are other parts that have had to have been paid for (least of all, a commercial Unity license to sell the software).

post-32914-0-85624300-1543574035_thumb.png


My personal opinion is that someone who is using Patreon or Kickstarter to get money to make an FM is a louse, parasiting off many others' hard work when all they're doing is using software - that they didn't design - to make a level for a game - a game they didn't build - to be played in a game that has all its content available for free, non-commercial use. That they have anything to do with, except draw a few boxes and click some buttons.

My personal opinion on stealing chunks of someone's level design is that it's a matter of being respectful of the other person, therefore asking permission and giving credit if it is granted.

If it's abandoned, then it's left their for people to do this.

If it's a WiP, then it's a leak and - unless it's a studio such as FUbisoft that deserve it - if it was my design, I'd be pissed.

But - because there's no way to say, "oi - that's mine - you can't do that", there's nothing I can do to stop it, so just gotta suck it up and learn to not blow my load too soon next time.

Like I said in TL;DR.

 



Hopefully this epistle will have bored the shit out of any further commentary on this issue, because:

a) there's nothing anyone can do about it, except say, "no we're not publishing that FM because you stole from this person".

but

2) That would be hypocritical because it goes against what the license says

and - in some cases

x) It doesn't matter because it's abandoned.

Edited by teh_saccade

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I instantly recognise the images and I know those missions well - if I was playing that new one, I'd think that it was a remake or improvement by the original authour.

I probably wouldn't notice that it was the same thing from two different missions, packaged by a different authour as a "new" one, unless someone pointed it out...

There are a lot of stale FMs that are very similar.

Tbh, the originals look better, except for the arched gate with the extra lighting to give the impression of a populated building.
It just looks like a tweak from the original - the house over the arch is more aesthetically pleasing, but it's the same place.

(actually, the geometry of the building makes me think that the architect was high, because that's messed up... wtf is up with that 45 degree bolt-on room at the top..? It looks weird, even though using the newer assets and fleshing out the scene make it a little more attractive - it's probably all fur coat and no knickers)

Since you said it comes from WiP thread - unless "Cleaning Up" is by the same authour, or that authour has given permission, it's legitimate plagurism that only shows the offending mapper couldn't be bothered to come up with their own ideas or put in the work to create a section that's similar.

Idk why it's a big deal - people will notice and that person will lose internet cookies. The end.

If anything - it'd be nice to hand those sections back to the original FM authours as "hey what do you think of the improvements I've made?".


This is what you get when you promote modular design and prefabs.

Edited by teh_saccade

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Heh, their name in 1337 is "some, I stole it..."

Also, the FM appears to have been made by Bikerdude - they've put more time into it than the mapper, looking at that thread.

There's no response from the mapper. the issue raised here is ignored - it's all talk between others. "Some, I stole it", displays a trend of wanting to copy things from the get-go - this is how people learn.


It appears there are only a few sections that have been copied, but - for the rest of the map - is that a Barbie doll house / copy of something else, too?

To summarise everything - this raises more a discussion on allowing people to learn how to operate on humans by performing surgery on 2nd hand pigs and learn to tattoo humans by practising on pig-skin, and also whether or not to add a layer of encryption to pk4's so as to prevent a slew of copy-cat copy-cats with manga cat ears copy-catting copy-cats.


This looks like a case of sanctioned plagiurism of someone else's work, without any request or granted permission to do so.

Therefore, it's up to the bosses to decide if they are going to allow the same levels, updated with new assets - or if FM's such as this are to be treated as training exercises for less experienced mappers who want to rush ahead and get cookies.

Reading the thread - people have been aware that it has contained sections that are facsimilie copies from other missions for some time, yet have allowed it.

The question is - will these same people continue to allow it to be pubished, knowing that it is like this - setting a precedent that it's ok to copy other mapper's brushwork and just slap a new coat of paint on it, while doing all the technical stuff that the rest of us have to figure out ourselves..?


Why does no one hold my hand through the entire process and do all the work for me, when I have issues?

Is it because I don't look like a girl and have manga cat ears and write long posts..?

I'll be boycotting playing this mission for a number of reasons and am considering making a new account, pretending to be a girl and using a manga character as an avatar - because then I might get someone helping me and doing all the hard work, while I just build a doll's house and make it look pretty.


Again - this is what you get when you promote modular design and prefabs.

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I'd be really happy if you could just once have a concise and coherent thought to spell out, without barfing the whole stream of your consciousness, and everything you know about a given topic. ;)

 

You have at least a few fair points there though, I hope others won't get discouraged by these walls of texts and have their say too.

 

Also, if what I've learned is correct, Some1stoleit is not only new to mapping in TDM, he/she is new to game mapping in general. So Biker taking over the map might be something completely new and hard to oppose for such person, and their situation isn't exactly "you knew what you've signed up for".

Edited by Judith

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For me, this is a discussion between the two contributors: the original mapper and the mapper using the original mapper's work.

 

There's no need for third parties to become involved.

 

If the original mapper discovers (assuming no prior permission request) an object's re-use (whether it's a new texture or a new model of a new map section), the originator and the user can work out some agreement:

 

1 - don't use it (perhaps it's unique to the original map and the author wishes it to stay that way)

2 - feel free to use it, but don't alter it

3 - feel free to use it, and alter it any way you wish

 

This can be done via PM, and anyone during a beta test who points out similarities between the WIP and existing maps can be told right away what the two authors agreed to. End of discussion.

  • Like 2

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Official sanction - precedent set - rules established.

It's ok to steal other people's work, so long as they don't find out about it.

If they do, argue about it in private.


I have to disagree, Grayman, and say that this is an not an issue between mappers, but one of integrity in the community.


How about - instead of allowing these situations to happen, an FM authour states in the readme that it's ok to copy anything or puts some limitations on use, nipping the problem in the bud instead of ignoring it and letting the dogs fight over a bone?

Then this will never happen again.

 

; if there's nothing in the readme - it's open season (it could even be a stipulation of the FM's release - the authour choose 1, 2 or 3 and that determines level of encryption).

Edited by teh_saccade

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Thanks for the input Grayman, it would be great to see more TDM team members speaking their minds about this.

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There are a lot of times where copying and pasting entire sections of someone else's mission might be acceptable:

1. You want to re-use an existing game-world location (like the Braeden City Hall) and you get the original mapper's permission.
2. You are a new mapper who doesn't know how to make things on their own, and you get the original mapper's permission.
3. You are pressed for time, or looking for shortcuts for other reasons, and you get the original mapper's permission.
4. You make so many changes to the original section that no one would recognize it.

However, none of those apply in this case.

This is what you get when you promote modular design and prefabs.


This has nothing at all to do with modular design, or prefabs. This is an obvious copy/paste of an entire section of an easily-recognized map, from a mapper with a long history of crossing boundaries with other people's work.

 

As the mapper whose work was copy/pasted, I'm definitely not thrilled about it, especially when I made and shared dozens of prefab buildings specifically for mappers who wanted to speed up their workflow. But what else is there to be said? This keeps coming up over and over again, always surrounding the same person, and I've long ago stopped expecting anything to change.


  • Like 3

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In essence, mapper copypasted portions of his previous map into a new one, along with portions of work by another mapper, with changes ranging from slight/cosmetic to none. Two examples:

I was never my intention to blatantly copy Springheels layout, but to use parts of the map as templates. In the beta thread I made the mistake of posting WIP shots which were then viewed as final product, Springheel saw this and rightly commented it was a blatant copy. In hindsight had I been thinking straight, I should have just dropped Springheel a Pm asking if he minded my template intentions.

 

Then fast forward to a few days ago where Judith angerly pointed out the the issue in the beta, I then asked him three separate times to take screenshots of examples where I still had to make changes. He eventually did this but only after some prodding from another member, and thought that was the end of it.

 

Judith, I did try and PM you after your first post in the beta thread but as you blocked me I have no other choice but to discuss it in the beta thread and now here.

Edited by Bikerdude

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I am not interested in your take on this, Biker. I'm interested in what other mappers and members of TDM team think.

 

Your actions speak louder than your words, and you've lost the benefit of doubt quite some time ago. In this particular situation, I reacted angrily, because I feel genuinely threatened by your shitty practices. In fact, you can easily extrapolate this, and apply it to every mapper who already published, or will publish a mission. If this behavior is tolerated in this community, it will mean that every mapper has to check whether you nicked some of their level design every time you publish a new mission. If that's not tremendously discouraging, then I don't know what is.

 

I want to contribute to this community, but I will have to restrict that to sharing my know-how, technical knowledge, and, in due time, models and asset packs. But I honestly don't want to work on a map under the circumstances.

 

Edit: and stop pretending that this is some kind of mild case, where you can find some middle ground or make some slight adjustments. There are no ways to correct this other than deleting the whole copypasted section and making this area from scratch.

Edited by Judith

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You made that clear when you posted increasingly confrontational posts in the beta thread and then started a new thread in the public forum. Why didn't you just PM me in the first instance, your first post in the beta thread was direct but civil but then rapidly went down hill after that.

 

I don't know how many different way or times I can explain what my intentions were, people other than me have tried to explain this also - but your refusing to listen. Repeatedly attacking me is counter productive, as is making grand sweeping hypothetical statements that have no basis in fact, both of which just undermines your viewpoint..

 

As I stated in the beta thread I asked you directly "please suggest locations as I have requested in the posts above" and before nborh1 repeated his request I had already spoken to Some1 so make him aware that where were several locations where I needed to change or recreate. I see you have continued to lump in the use of prefabs and locations I have created from scratch for other missions, beyond suggesting some changes - how is the use of my personally created resources relate to your argument?

 

Since you have taken this opportunity to voice your opinion about me, I shall do the same. No one will deny the models and rooms you have created are very impressive, but when you started in this community, you came across as blunt and opinionated. And now choosing to create drama rather than avoid it, helps no one. I will not deny I have caused a lot of avoidable drama on here, but I haven't had much interaction with you before this point! So I am failing to understand how you went from that, to personally attacking me. When you took the decision to start an inflammatory thread in the public forum, what did you genuinely think or want the outcome to be?

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You are creating this drama Biker. Several people left either this forum, or TDM mapping entirely, because of you. That is not really my business, but what you're doing now is, as it affects all mappers. You're dodging questions and playing village idiot. You've played that card way too many times, so I'm not buying it.

 

I'm not buying that you wanted to use Springs portion of a map "as template", because you copypasted the whole section, got caught, and only made slight changes. In the beta thread, Some1stoleit said that this is probably the final iteration before the release. So you're constantly testing the waters, trying to see what you can get away with.

 

You are also dodging the basic question: why are you doing all this? This wasn't even your map, who the hell told you to do this? By pasting your and Spring's parts of the level into Some1stoleit's you are degrading it for no reason. It's his/her first release and first game mapping experience ever, and that's what you're teaching newcomers?

 

These are obvious things to everyone here, and in most mapping communities to be honest. But somehow not to you. Note that you are literally the only one person in this community who regularly causes this kind of backlash.

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The thread isn't inflammatory. The evidence is there, I wanted to know what people think about such conduct. In many communities you would have been banned long ago, so here the situation is a bit different. If such behavior is generally accepted, I will have to adapt to the situation. I'm not judging anyone for their opinions. I stated what I think in the beginning, and everything was pretty much fine until you showed up.

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Plagiarism

Plagiarism is presenting someone else’s work or ideas as your own, with or without their consent, by incorporating it into your work without full acknowledgement. All published and unpublished material, whether in manuscript, printed or electronic form, is covered under this definition. Plagiarism may be intentional or reckless, or unintentional. Under the regulations for examinations, intentional or reckless plagiarism is a disciplinary offence.

 

University of Oxford

Edited by Xarg
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I'm going to throw my hat into this ring and give my two cents, as I'm actually one of the beta testers of the specific map in question. When I did the first round of testing on this map I noticed the (abundant) similarities, but I was operating under the false assumption that I was either wrong and misremembering how A New Job was or that Springheel had given his permission to use that city block in question. I tried to stay out of it as I figured that issue belonged to better minds that I. I feel terrible about it though. I should have spoken up at the time, but I didn't because I couldn't possibly believe that someone would just outright copy/paste an entire city block from someone else's map.

 

And I'm speaking out now not to stoke the already sky-high flames but for my own piece of mind because I'm fucking frustrated. Months ago, when Biker had posted a call out for people to test Penny Dreadful 2 for bug fixing and minor stuff like that, I volunteered and when I loaded up the .pk4 file and played the game, it was hard not to notice all the creative changes but again, I had assumed they were all sanctioned. They weren't. I went through the map and listed out all the bugs in my notebook and when I finally got back online to post them in the beta thread, I found that I had walked into a shitstorm of drama. Melan was pissed, and rightfully so of course, and he spoke his piece. But I felt fucking awful, I felt like an accessory to a crime because I had unknowingly volunteered to beta test corrupted fruit.

 

I absolutely love this community and as I'm learning how to make my own map I want to be able to help out in any way I can, be it through beta testing or proofreading/editing, but the shit that is being pulled off right now is NOT okay. I could understand like maybe copy/pasting a pipe or maybe a complicated arch, some kind of obscure patchwork that is hard to replicate (I, personally, hate patches and think they're the devil) but this was a whole city block! That city block is outright plagiarism and I want no part in supporting it.

 

Some1stoleit: I'm sorry you're map is being dragged through the mud like this, that's gotta be frustrating as hell. I'm still happy to help beta test of course (I'm pretty excited for its final release) but only so long as that portion of the map is gone.

 

Biker, you've been such a helpful person to this community and you've always clocked in a heroic amount of man hours to fix things and help out newcomers, but Judith is right. Copying that city block (or using it as a "template" and only changing a few things around) is NOT okay in any way shape or form and this kind of behavior should not be endorsed or encouraged. This is on you to fix it.

 

Edit: I hope this is the relevant thread for my semi-rant that didn't quite answer the question, but I didn't want to say this in the beta test thread.

Edited by Amadeus
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I absolutely love this community and as I'm learning how to make my own map I want to be able to help out in any way I can, be it through beta testing or proofreading/editing,

 

 

The main point here is "learning".

 

I'm sorry for the mean things I said, some1stoleit - but it was in order to provoke discussions such as this by being an arse (a la south park's trevor's axiom), rather than the predicted stamping down and "end of discussion".

 

The learning is the important part.

 

 

 

Not everyone learns like me and I don't learn like everyone else - I can't learn with a curriculum, and I find it very difficult to follow tutorials. Have done all my life. I have to experiment and use trial and error and understand things from the bottom up. I set a goal and then go about figuring out how to achieve it by whatever means necessary.

 

It's difficult to teach me routines and patterns, unless they have a reason - it's one reason I'm terrible at kata/poomse but better at sparring.

 

Some people - it's not like this.

 

They can learn by copying, rather than investigative research and extra-curricular activity and experimentation.

 

I'm not going to go into the dopamine rewards of learning and "being on the list", because that's irrelevant and no-one gives a shit, even though I'm really tempted.

 

Ok - I have taken apart pretty much every mission I've ever played (except a few) to look at how it was made and learn from that.

That's my way.

 

I've had to deal with DR's massive learning curve from the documentation and the support offered by the community, if asked or through searching the forums/wiki - I've even PM'd people with questions about a particular thing, if I don't ever receive a reply and cannot find an answer or dont understand something - often I don't receive an answer.

 

This is why I'm a little peeved to see a new designer come in and retexture someone else's geometry get all the hard work done for them.

 

If someone is going to learn texturing by going through and copy-pasting a bunch of another level, with the intention to release as an FM in-game, with the "OK" from the people who "OK" stuff - causing a bit of upset because it's "corrupted fruit" (I like that rant, Amadeus - some good analogies) and get a basic grip of brushwork:

 

Does that qualify my map as an FM that's ready to be published?

Or is it a learning exercise?

 

In my maps folder on this machine, I have over 130 maps from the past 3 and a bit years.

A few of them might be worthy of release, if I knew how to optimise and had someone other than my (very few) mates test them out (who also have pretty high-end machines).

Also if I bothered to make briefings and all that stuff, beyond placeholder readables - but I want to make a campaign of it, not just a bunch of maps - so I sit on it.

 

I would be happy for people to learn how I have implemented some mechanics in the level - as it's kinda simple, but effective, because I've had to be creative in my solutions - but, at the same time - I wouldn't want people copying my brushwork or over-using any trap / section / bespoke something / secret thing, that would make my FM's less ... unique..? signiture? Idk the word - same as how ppl recognise my paintings, no matter what I paint in whatever style.

 

I'd rather help them understand it so they can do it themselves and innovate and come up with their own ideas.

 

I believe that - if an FM is made and contains a large chunk that's been ripped from another level without permission - and the reason that has been done is because the person is LEARNING how to do things in their own way - it's not an original FM and therefore would be better off deposited in the Editor's Guild, in that person's mapping thread, as part of their progress and learning notation.

 

I'm sure anyone could - within a few hours - figure out how to make a nice looking scene in DR with some AI and an objective. A passable FM, but perhaps one I'd play half-way and quit because it's not fun.

 

But all the elf-wizardry that goes on behind the scenes - that's something that takes a long time (years, in my case) to figure out.

 

It's really nice that people help each other and I really like that. I might come across as a dick sometimes, but I try my best to help people when I can with what I've learned - same as the veterans answer a question I am forced to ask (or more often reply, wtf are you talking about..? or ignore it.)

 

There's a trade off between publishing "my first FM that I spent a few hours on" that contains a lot of "that other's FM that they spent a year on" - it's either a learning experience, which I believe this level design thing is for the designer in question (it does look very nice) or it's an FM that people can download and play and then go - "oh this is a bit like that, oh it is that, I've already done this".

 

While a level designer may learn a great deal in less time by copy pasting a bunch of geometry and then texturing it - they're missing vital practise in building brush models, patches, seed systems, visportaling, how to use clips, scripting, particle effects, lighting, ambiance, materials, definitions, guis, briefings, a billion other things, and all the other stuff that they may need to realise "THE FM".

 

I still consider myself a noob at all of this, and I must've spent more hours in DR than I have actually playing TDM.

 

Maybe that's because I haven't simply ripped stuff from other people's FM's - I've taken the time to try and understand it so I can do it myself - and I haven't received much help. Maybe because I don't ask very often.

 

If I had have just copied a bunch of gui and script files, especially copy-pasted level geometry and textured it with new assets - I might have learned a lot faster how to do that kind of thing.

 

As it is, I've a bunch of older maps where some models, textures and functions are depreciated or moved - but I know how to fix that, because I learned that in DR 101, while I'm almost through the door to class-room DR 103.

 

Even though they could technically be short FM's, such as Thief's Den - they're not submitted as FM's, because they're not up to what I would consider to be on par with Biker, Melan, Springheel, etc... FM's.

 

I've spoken before about how difficult it is for new mappers to achieve even a simple thing in another post, given current documentation and explanation available - I think only Jaxa read that.

 

Perhaps some level designers were not born when some of use were making Doom levels that we'd share on our 14.4baud modems through BBS or using netscape browser and freeserv or distributing on a floppy.

 

Hand-holding / tutoring is a very good thing, but no-one did my homework for me at school - except once when I forgot how to do long division when I was 16 and asked my mate's dad.

 

Other than authour's stating in the readme an expression of what they would allow or not allow (eg, Grayman's rule #2, except for the pitfall trap with the indiana jones spike wall and stuff, cos that's unique, intrinsic design to this FM):

 

A thread for mappers to be able to post their .map progressions as spoilered text and with necessary scripts and gui code, or videos and screenshots (as I used to), or fully compliled pk4's ready to download and play, would also be a good way to avoid this situation from happening, now the precedent has been set, sanctioned and end of discussioned.

 

It would enable mappers to have "published" their FM and announce it - but distinguish that it's a map that's a learning thing and probably one that - if published for download in-game - would cause arguments over "stealing" (ironic, isn't it..? stealing in a game about stealing stuff) or other issues.

 

 

 

 

How can the community best support new mappers to learn the things to raise TDM's FM quality, without causing stuff like this?

 

There are two suggestions:

 

1. Authour includes in the readme what they're fine with people copying, facsimilie.

 

2. "Learning" FM's are put into editor's guild for the community to play, enjoy and learn from, in a level designer's own thread or in a thread that is specific to this end.

 

These two things would avoid this issue from occouring again, as well as help people learn through hands on and dissection, rather than monkey-see, monkey-do and elves.

 

It relies on a cohesive community that follows some kind of social contract, which I believe everyone can respect without things degrading into disagreements, flame-wars or become blown out of proportion and elicit vehement "corrupt fruit" metaphors.

 

 

 

 

I know for damn certain that Judith bringing this to light has caused me a little doubt to reveal anything until it's at the stage where I really need someone's help to look over it, which I kinda doubt they will 'cos it's me, because I am at my limit and cannot progress without going public with anything.

 

That was one reason I removed the content of my mapping thread - it spoiled the stuff I was coming up with and I didn't want anyone to steal my design mechanics and implement them before I did.

 

I love TDM and I love to see people release new FMs that I really enjoy to play.

 

(and then go and break out of bounds or find a way to bypass massive sections, because I don't beta test cos I'm busy with my own stuff).

 

I don't like running the same mansion over and over, having to ramp the difficulties to max and remove the light gem in order for the FM or a replay to be more challenging. I don't use the light gem regardless, due to familiarity with the game, but I know people usually keep it on.

 

 

 

 

That's the last input from me, because I've repeated myself at least twice in this thread and I'm even boring myself.

 

Also I doubt anyone reads what I write, unless it's helping to figure a solution to their problem in newbie questions (cos Judith, you know I can't be coherent or brain-fart all over the place - "I never asked for this", is probably more fitting, as Adam Jensen opened DR for the third time).

 

// patches are awesome.

 

Edited by teh_saccade
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Also you can't ban Bikerdude - he's a mod hero.

(now I'm done)

Do you want some of my alprazolam, Judith?

It's a sad anniversary for me today so I'm gonna be taking some - they're expired but only by a month.

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Thanks you for your input Amadeus, as you described how I feel better than I did.

 

I'm still pretty furious about this, and what made me especially angry about the whole topic is the way Biker puts the whole thing in words, as if it was a minor thing. He uses this tactic very often, you can see that in his "farewell" thread. Using euphemisms to downplay an issue or to place yourself as a victim. And I find this especially sleazy.

 

In this case it was "shh, shh, let's focus on correcting this problem". It's not a bug, leak, or performance issue, for fuck sake. You "correct the problem" deleting the copypasted section and doing the whole thing from scratch. And everybody in the world knows that you just never, ever do things like this. If you have any shreds of decency, you wouldn't even think about doing something like this. It's like speaking to a child why we don't use knives to stab people in the back. For the 10th time.

 

So my last posts were basically preemptive strikes: I'm not falling euphemisms, victim card, or "sorry I'm being an idiot" card.

 

That is to say, this is not a witch hunt (who am I to be such crusader). We are all different and weird bunch of people. I am, as Biker correctly stated, pretty blunt and awfully opinionated on certain things. People I interact here with sometimes feel weird to me, and I'm sure I look weird to them with what I write. We don't see eye to eye on everything, but that's okay. Trust and mutual respect is there, because virtually noone else in the forums pulls off the shit Biker does. Making compulsive changes in maps behind people's backs, taking over maps to fill them with models, copypasting stuff from other maps into other people's work. This is not just being weird, it's weird and fucking scary. That's why I wrote the above, that I feel threatened. The respect and "community darling" status is one thing, but the whole "questionable methods of mentoring", as Biker himself admitted in the farewell thread, haven't changed.

 

I bet TDM veterans are super tired of this already, and none of the pleading worked so far, so maybe this will change something.

 

I am scared of what you do here, Biker, and I don't even want to think of what you'll come up with next time.

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I don't even want to chime in on this discussion, as I am a bit tired of stuff like this. So I am just gonne say this:

 

 

Biker, please delete the sections as per the screenshots in the main post of this thread.

 

Next time you need templates, use your own works or just block out a coarse room and do some concept drawings.

 

Always ask the IP owner permission to reuse assets unless they were released to the public for free use.

 

Never plagiarise, you know it's wrong!

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You're dodging questions and playing village idiot. You've played that card way too many times, so I'm not buying it.

 

I'm not buying that you wanted to use Springs portion of a map "as template", because you copypasted the whole section, got caught, and only made slight changes. In the beta thread, Some1stoleit said that this is probably the final iteration before the release. So you're constantly testing the waters, trying to see what you can get away with.

 

You are also dodging the basic question: why are you doing all this? This wasn't even your map, who the hell told you to do this? By pasting your and Spring's parts of the level into Some1stoleit's you are degrading it for no reason. It's his/her first release and first game mapping experience ever, and that's what you're teaching newcomers?

 

These are obvious things to everyone here, and in most mapping communities to be honest. But somehow not to you. Note that you are literally the only one person in this community who regularly causes this kind of backlash.

 

The respect and "community darling" status is one thing, but the whole "questionable methods of mentoring", as Biker himself admitted in the farewell thread, haven't changed.

No I am not and have not dodged any questions, I have answered every thing I have been asked, and there you go again personally attaching me.

 

At this point I am not interested in what you think, I have explained what I was trying to do and and why multiple times.

 

See above, christ are you f**king blind or just belligerently myopic..? I answered those very question/s in the beta thread more than once, but as seems to be a pattern with you, your refusing to see any answer given.

 

I know what I have done in the past, repeatedly Insulting me and then twisting what I have said on previous posts - right now in this thread your the one causing the drama!

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Biker, please delete the sections as per the screenshots in the main post of this thread.

 

Next time you need templates, use your own works

 

Always ask the IP owner permission to reuse assets unless they were released to the public for free use.

Before Judith even started this thread I had already spoken to Some1 to do exactly this, also mentioned that in the beta thread.

 

I did just that, but apparently Judith even found fault with that.

 

When I created The Gatehouse I did exactly that.

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That might be more of a subjective issue, but to me it's really quite apparent, that the surrounding building arrangement is almost a copypasted version of Springheel's "A new job", and the sewer is almost a 1:1 copy of Bikerdude's "Elixir". Not sure why you're doing this...? Anyway, I'm pretty sure people will notice that and will find it a cheap shot.

 

 

But why copypasting in the first place? Just use models to make these sections from scratch, make it different from what we've already seen by using different model combinations, different textures or lighting. Right now, it seems like you want to make a map, but you actually don't feel like making it...

 

 

why are you doing all this? This wasn't even your map, who the hell told you to do this? By pasting your and Spring's parts of the level into Some1stoleit's you are degrading it for no reason. It's his/her first release and first game mapping experience ever, and that's what you're teaching newcomers?

 

Just answer the bloody question, Biker, I'm running out of ways to rephrase it.

 

Why did you copypaste whole sections of other maps into sb else's work? What did you think would come out of it? That people won't notice it? Why did you take over Some1stoleit's map and filled with models? Currently, there's another similar case, a map in the works by JackFarmer, do you plan to "help" him too? What is the purpose of this obsession with other people's layouts and filling them with your own stuff? Will you shove your "mentoring methods" down every new mapper's throat in this forum?

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— I accidentally delated win.com, what do I do now?
— To the morgue!

 

Whatever is the outcome now, it's probably best for the FM to have the fragments allegedly originating from a fruit of the poisoned tree to be deleted and do it all over to save time/health. No point in arguing because the FM might get beyond "the point of no return". Not good.

 

Playing out retorsion will consume everyone. Just avoid contacts in the future and focus on the good part.

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  • Why did you copypaste whole sections of other maps into sb else's work?
  • What did you think would come out of it?
  • That people won't notice it?
  • Why did you take over Some1stoleit's map and filled with models?
  • Currently, there's another similar case, a map in the works by JackFarmer, do you plan to "help" him too?
  • What is the purpose of this obsession with other people's layouts and filling them with your own stuff?
  • Will you shove your "mentoring methods" down every new mapper's throat in this forum?

Im going to re-answer all the same questions yet again just so there is a record of it -

  • The plan was to use parts of NJ as a template/prfab and then change them to suit.
  • After I had changed/customized the templates/prefabs, a new looking layout.
  • See above.
  • If you had bothered to read the beta thread you would have seen, that i was fairly upfront about my intentions and Some1 was happy for me to proceed.
  • This not a question, this is a thinly veiled snipe. If Jack asks for my help, then I would give it - he would then be free to choose if he wanted it or not.
  • Not relevant to this thread, but as you've asked - I don't have an 'obsession with other peoples layouts or filling them with my stuff', I do how ever have a passion for the mod and making it the best it can be. But the manor I have go about doing that was poorly managed, I am and have been working on that.
  • Again not relevant, but again as you have asked - In the past and even with some1, I had been overbearing. In the past I didn't realise what I was doing till it was too late, but with some1 I caught myself and dropped him a PM. I had offered to just do what I originally offered but he was happy for me to continue as I was.

And as we are on subject of asking questions -

  • Why have you repeatedly lumped in my copy and pasting of my own work into this map and tarred it with the same brush? It was neither correct or relevant to your core question.
  • Why did you go from being civil, to outright belligerent and personally insulting me in the beta thread and now publicly?
  • Why have you refused to or been unable to acknowledge any of the answers I have given you before now?
  • Why at the very start, didnt you drop me a PM and directly confront me with your concerns before posting all of this drama?

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