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CarltonTroisi

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Closing a thread doesn't delete it's contents, you just can't reply anymore......Everyone can still read it as many times as they want.

Why is this thread so offensive that it needs to be closed? Bikerdude was a very significant member of this community for many years so doesn't it make sense that people might want to discuss this event and want time to digest what has happened? Is this such an inconvenience?

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People blaming me for being lazy and not "bothering to read" some pages full of subjective drama, and I say this as a fact, that most of it is based by opinions anyway, caused by you all.

 

I am only asking for a simple short objective SUMMARY, yet you people just want to passive-aggressively complain some more and blame me for nothing, then make extreme suggestions like closing this thread just because it is, what, being "necro'd" when it's not? Two/Three weeks old doesn't make it "dead".

I understand you're all "hurt", but why not tell me why instead of just passive-aggressively blaming for bringing those emotions back?

 

I'm sorry, I just did what STiFU didn't wanted to happen, but I am absolutely not at a fault here, it is your fault you want to take extreme measures and continue the drama by just continuing it.

 

Like I said, what's wrong with wanting to be informed even if just by a simple quote?

Is it that hard to simply say "BikerDude was banned due to plagiarism, he's been doing it for so long as well"? And besides, is that what actually happened? Nobody tells me, you all just go enact an opera.

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I am only asking for a simple short objective SUMMARY

Summary: Bikerdude has been banned.

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FM's: Builder Roads, Old Habits, Old Habits Rebuild

WIP's: Several. Although after playing Thief 4 I really wanna make a city mission.

Mapping and Scripting: Apples and Peaches

Sculptris Models and Tutorials: Obsttortes Models

My wiki articles: Obstipedia

Texture Blending in DR: DR ASE Blend Exporter

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Is it that hard to simply say "BikerDude was banned due to plagiarism, he's been doing it for so long as well"? And besides, is that what actually happened? Nobody tells me, you all just go enact an opera.

Everyone's having their own version, it's almost like the Gospels.

 

Here's the Gospel of Duzenko.

 

Biker was many a few's pain in the ass for years. He's been reforming himself the last months but not whipping himself as badly as the Pharisees wanted him to.

On the New Year Eve someone brought up an old sin he'd been already punished for and, in a blink of an eye, his head rolled wrecking tumultuous applause.

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Amnesty for Bikerdude!

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Summary: Bikerdude has been banned.

 

Yup, that's as objective as you can get.

 

IMO it will be wiser to close this thread, as there are special snowflakes out there, who will demand individual explanation of what happened, as they don't seem to get that digging that up repeatedly is exactly the opposite of respect, both to Biker and to any other party involved.

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Summary: Bikerdude has been banned.

Thanks, I'm so retarded that I don't even know what obvious statements are.

 

And obviously, that is not a summary.

 

Biker was many a few's pain in the ass for years. He's been reforming himself the last months but not whipping himself as badly as the Pharisees wanted him to.

On the New Year Eve someone brought up an old sin he'd been already punished for and, in a blink of an eye, his head rolled wrecking tumultuous applause.

 

Heh, that's actually a very good one even if it was intentionally made to be poetic.

 

IMO it will be wiser to close this thread, as there are special snowflakes out there, who will demand individual explanation of what happened, as they don't seem to get that digging that up repeatedly is exactly the opposite of respect, both to Biker and to any other party involved.

 

Look who's talking, the one and only person here who's too keen on closing a thread just because of one guy, accusing me of "special snowflake" when the only special snowflake here is you, with your obvious passive-aggressiveness.

 

And no, I'm not "disrespecting by digging", I'm simply asking, the question of "why it is that hard for you to understand" should be on you instead.

 

But fine, I surrender. I don't want to get banned or have my reputation further ravaged just because I daringly asked for information, I got better things to do than deal with overly-sensitive hypocrites.

Close this thread indeed, let it be a testament that dealing with you people is far from worth it and it's best to just shut up and carry on. <--- There's yon good ol' conspiracy theory.

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You're asking a group that consists of people who liked Biker or are his borderline fanboys, and people who were mad at him for what he did, to give you objective explanation. Either you don't get what the word objective means, or you have empathy of a daphnia.

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Like I said, what's wrong with wanting to be informed even if just by a simple quote?

Is it that hard to simply say "BikerDude was banned due to plagiarism, he's been doing it for so long as well"? And besides, is that what actually happened? Nobody tells me, you all just go enact an opera.

 

Most of things were in PM's and then they went into public outcries in a few threads mostly in the Off Topic section AFAIK. The intervals of time when it took place were significant but they are around. Too hard to summarize but at the point when Bikerdude decided to leave it is clear that plagiarism allegations / tension between team members made it impossible to continue like this. It is not clear to me whether Airship Ballet and SteveL left due to Bikerdude, burnout or all of it together. Most of that took place in PM as well. Some members like Judith and Melan lead me to believe it could be that as well.

 

But in any case, in all candour most members tried to alleviate the situation and reduce harm that comes to upcoming FM's and to TDM as a whole. The identified solution to ban Bikerdude was not punishment but rather damage control - the choice for lesser evil to keep things going. His work is still public and it remains that way to promote the good things that he left, those missions being equally good in their own way to other FM's. Nobody can work forever on TDM.

I want to believe that nobody here has a lack of free time so further clarifications can always be provided. Maybe even links to the respective threads (if I can find them still).

For the most part nobody is guilty that being very engaged with an FM as one's work with a title of an author brings sufficient emotional distress. Any authors' work is an expression of his persona. So they often take it personally when the FM gets blasted and it works both ways. That's normal.

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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All this has been explained in this thread in the first 2-3 pages.

Asking for more indicates you either won't understand or won't accept the reasons for his ban.

 

Reminds me of this scene:

 

 

I have never really had an issue with Biker except when hearing from other members.

The one time we worked together I found him to be enthusiastic, hard working, willing to collaborate. But at the same time, it felt like his opinions on maps overrode everyone else's once he got it into his head that something should be done a certain way.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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That's a perfect place to end this thread, a good summary and near the last post.

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I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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The thread may remain open because the answers provided are a good reference point for questions that can appear in the future.

 

May I ask in this order if there is any progress on copyright rules for maps that were under discussion? Where can they be accessed?

Edited by Anderson

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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The thread may remain open because the answers provided are a good reference point for questions that can appear in the future.

 

May I ask in this order if there is any progress on copyright rules for maps that were under discussion? Where can they be accessed?

 

http://forums.thedarkmod.com/topic/19751-copypasting-vs-gplcc-30-reuse-or-adapt-your-thoughts/


Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

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Yeah I don't see a reason to lock this thread, as we are all adults here, and we can carry on a mature discussion and respect each other. I do miss having Bikerdude around though.

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Just to place my flower onto the Biker memorial thread.

Despite all that stuff last year and even though he was a grumpy sod - I liked Bikerdude and he was helpful in that way of blasting stuff so you'd either defend it or roll with the punches.

What I don't see is people defending their creative vision so much, nor rolling with the punches. It sounds more like people have simply rolled over.
You gotta stand up and defend your own work - that's one reason I liked Biker. The fact he provokes that kind of attitude in me, if indirectly.
Maybe not everyone feels like that. This isn't all on Biker, this whole situation, and I think that to put all the crap on his doorstep is a little unfair and shirking responsibility - which is understandable, as Biker would take it on.

I'd like to state that I don't believe that any mapper has ever been under any obligation to accept the changes that Bikerdude would make.
Creative control has never left the hands of the FM creator - even if someone is difficult and pushing for a bunch of different stuff - there's no law that says, "thou must abide by the Bikerdude".

So, this really ain't all about what Biker went and did.
Whoever sanctioned the alterations to the FM and made it available in that state to download is equally - if not more - responsible.
(but these things are difficult to attribute in an anarchic system, such as online collaboration as with TDM, so it's better to avoid blame and look at positions of responsibility - which there are, even if people are loathe to acknowledge the positions and roles they've assumed in the TDM universe structure of getting shit done)

Whether this be the FM authour themselves or anyone else along the pipeline from whoever's hard-disc to the download repository.

This is something that appears to have been completely ignored in this discussion so far.

It's a cop-out to say, "Biker did it". Because it's your bloody FM.
I know my maps inside out and back to front. If someone changed a brush 0.01 units I'd probably notice on the first look-thru.

If I had asked Bikerdude to help me with something and he sent the map back with a bunch of changes that made me think, hang on a moment, what's all this about? I'd likely have asked wtf this was about and why is it changed, what's with messing with my map?
It's my map and my mission and my vision and all that stuff, so justify that or forget it.
I've put in a tonne of effort and if anyone wants to make changes to my stuff without me saying, that's a good improvement and is in-line with my idea for this FM, then they would receive a polite fuck off letter to say get back on point (thanks for the help), or if the changes were not negotiable, I'd have to figure it myself (thanks for the offer), or if it was decent enough and someone else saw a bunch of fixes - perhaps they'd step up and lend a hand down the line.




I very much dislike it when someone puts even a dot on a painting or anything like that, so I can understand how people feel.
However, there's kind of a void now in the "want me to help with your visportals and optimisation" area.

Hopefully this might encourage people to figure more stuff out for themselves.
Perhaps update the wiki so others can read how to do it and understand all the how's and whys for all the stuff Bikerdude would investigate and do the elven work.

Working in collaborations, I know that I can be overbearing at times and try to force my own ideas into a project, to the point where people have complained, thrown a hissy-fit or simply glazed over and wandered off.
Making the decision to step away from the driver's seat can be pretty difficult, but I found it to be helpful as it not only allowed me to realise my limitations and see the habits I had developed - but it also showed me a bunch of new stuff outside of the scope of my own abilities and gather new knowledge and ways to apply it.
It was also less stressful, not taking on all the responsibility that wasn't mine in the first place.

But to learn that lesson took being taken off a job for several months to do some soul searching.
That wasn't really my decision, and it pissed me off at the time - but after the period of reflection and a chat with then-colleagues, it turned out to be a good thing and ... i guess being penitent about it and returning with a different attitude, people were welcoming and it was nice to actually be part of a team in a way I didn't realise I wasn't before.

I'm saying this just in case there's a sockpuppet-dude having a butcher's at the thread, which I would imagine there is.

I get why someone might impose exile upon themselves or commit seppuku in such a situation, but I'd hope that the ban is reversible and that there is at least a window open in case Biker ever decides to step back into the game as part of the community and adjust his working practise to follow the Three Simple Rules of Springheel.

People here can be a little gruff sometimes. I know that i've had my own mini-drama and that's all been sorted out, without any real issue. Lesson learned - don't piss around and cause drama cos it's not productive.
Even if it does let off steam.

I'm hopeful that more FM's will have more diversity in the future, if they are not to be all wrapped up in the same way, with the same stuff in the box, but a different flavour.

When someone is stamping their seal over many different things, it can become a little stale - which is one reason I've not really downloaded any new missions for ... probably 9-12 months (I like breaking ppl's old missions, though).

But, at the same time, I'm hopeful that Bikerdude not being around to do his thing [minus the copy-pasta stuff] isn't going to result in a lot of headaches for people who might otherwise have relied on his knowledge to get the FM release-ready, or delay stuff by aeons.

I just reckon that people, from what I've read over the past few, appear to think these things have to be accepted for what they are - and placing all their responsibility in the lap of someone who's taking on a lot of other people's responsibility is going to lead to situations that are not confronted and result in someone deciding to withdraw. Just as Bikerdude did.

So...

Creators: Defend your own work. It's yours, not Bikerdude's, so just say, no thanks, and deal with it - no-one's forcing you to do stuff. There's something called Version Control and it's not hard to revert your FM back to the .pk4 you sent to someone else.

FM distribution ppl and beta testers: Just point it out and the mapper can make the call based upon that feedback and the FM ppl can make a call on copy-pasta that's noted - that's part of the testing process, isn't it..?

Biker: By effectively "resigning", you're saying that you can't follow three simple rules.
I'm pretty sure you're capable of doing that, without breaking a sweat.
You've gotta be aware of what the issue is by now, in order to have made the decision to ask for a ban to be imposed on you. It's pretty evident that your efforts and contributions are very much appreciated, else there wouldn't be a 5 page thread on the latest in the dude saga.
I don't reckon anyone would have a problem if someone was to eat some humble pie and step back into doing what they seem to love to do, saying that they can stick to a practice that doesn't piss off the people who can't say no to your unique charm, when it comes to cooking in their kitchen.
It's clearly written. 1.2.3. That's all. Idk why that might be so difficult to figure or why it's such a big barrier to carrying on doing stuff that might be fun.
Maybe it's not my place, but I'd reckon that it's not much more than giving up a notion in order to feel a weight lifted. It's not nice to withdraw from a community in which you might've been hyper-active and very committed.
I've a lot of experience with isolating myself when things get stressful, and - in my case - it's usually me not wanting to confront something, even if it's me slowly realising that I don't really want to continue it.
But if I do, I can at least bend myself to fit the shape required, because it's that or not be involved. Sometimes it takes a while to figure that out.

I've chucked my toys out the pram before and, sure it felt a little awkward to start getting involved again, but I like messing with DR and TDM, so why exclude myself 'cos I was a bit of a nob and had some friction with some people back then?



I really didn't expect all this stuff to escalate/devolve to this level.


(ノಥ益ಥ)ノ ┻━┻

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Creators: Defend your own work. It's yours, not Bikerdude's, so just say, no thanks, and deal with it - no-one's forcing you to do stuff. There's something called Version Control and it's not hard to revert your FM back to the .pk4 you sent to someone else.

As has been written many times before: This was not always possible, because people were not around when Biker made the changes. They could also not refute his claims that he made any updates after consulting them and often times only realised the changes after the mission had been updated without their knowledge. Maybe one option to prevent this would be for the Admins to clear any updates to maps with the original author, but if he/she is not reachable this may prove difficult. Anyway, for any details take a look at the multitude of links provided, although I have to admit that it makes for a lot of reading, if you haven't kept up to date.

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Jesus H Christ, TL:DR Wall of Text Batman!

Also, you can't really "defend your work" if you pass your map files to another author, and they make changes and send it back to you. What are you going to do, can't CTRL-Z weeks of work, and unless you kept strict backups of every iteration, or use a version system like SVN, you accept the changes grudgingly, hope that the other author has backups, or give up on the project.

 

I personally have over 12 backups of my Cathedral map, and even in that time the changes have been drastic between saves.

Giving up on weeks of work to go back to a previous version would burn me out instantly and I would just give up on the map, maybe for a few weeks/months, or completely.


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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Also, you can't really "defend your work" if you pass your map files to another author, and they make changes and send it back to you. What are you going to do, can't CTRL-Z weeks of work,

Can someone please explain this to me, because I genuinely don't get it?

 

I am working on a map. This is saved on my local machine.

I send it to someone else. It is now saved both on my local machine and in my outgoing email/DropBox/filesharing site or whatever.

They do the work and send it back to me. I now have at least three copies of the map: my original, the one in my outgoing email, and the version I just received from them.

I look at the version received from them, and decide I don't like what they've done. I tell them I'm not happy with the changes, and continue working on my local map which I still have because digital data is not a physical object which can only exist in one place.

 

At what point in this process does my local copy of a map suddenly get deleted and replaced with a modified version that I've already decided I don't like?

 

And yes, you really should be using a version control system like SVN, because they are not particularly difficult to use and are specifically designed for this kind of purpose. But even if you don't, unless Bikerdude literally hacked into your PC it makes no sense to accuse him of "editing" your local copy of a map.

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you send your map to a beta tester who also has access to the finished map download server they alter your map, you think its finished, you send your finished map the the person who has access to the download server, they think their map improvements are better than yours, they up load their version of your map, you only find out later on after people have been playing your map that they are not playing your version of your map but someone else's version.

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Or, you send your version to someone with a specific request for them to do ONE THING, and they send the map back. You thank them, dive in, and do some more work, before discovering that they made all kinds of changes that you didn't want and didn't ask for. You didn't think to look at the entire map, because you never assumed someone would just decide to pave over your own work without permission like that. Now you have to either manually revert all their changes or lose the work you just did, or manually copy the new work to a different version of the map, etc. Either way, it's still extra time, energy and effort. Add to that the extra insult of them expressing their annoyance that you reverted their unauthorized changes because they "put a lot of time into them".

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What I've done to myself also Orbweaver is that I stupidly overwrote the files in the map directory with what I thought were the latest files. Didn't realize until it was too late.

Not every one keeps copies of outgoing email, my wife doesn't, some of my coworkers delete their sent folder during "house cleaning".


I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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