The Thief/dark Mod Universe

[thestemmer]

I've always thought that one of the most compelling aspects of the Thief universe is its ambiguity. Most fantasy games hit you over the head with all kinds of useless minutae in an attempt to create a sense of "immersion," but not Thief. Like the real world, the Thief world takes itself for granted. The City is The City, the Hammers are the Hammers, and the Pagans are the pagans, nothing more and nothing less. Instead of wrapping the plot and the backstory up for you in one neat little package, the Thief games have always thrust you into a living universe, You have to feel your way through it, through all of its people and their dirty, decadent, fascinating, contradictory lives.

 

Without intending to "de-mystify" the Thief universe, therefore, I'd love to hear how different Dark Modders picture the the world that they are creating. Most people agree, for example, that it should be vaguely "Victorian," with some elements, such as bows and arrows, that are strictly medieval. But what about other things, like the area beyond the city? Very little has been said about this in any of the Thief games, intentionally I am sure. But as mod makers, level designers, story writers and the carriers of the Thief legacy, I'm sure you have some thoughts on how you are going to develop the setting.

 

For myself, I've always thought of the pictured the Thief world as a combination of extremes--you have a few heavily populated cities, with buroughs and smaller towns dotted around them and a few well-traveled roads, but the rest of the world is mostly wilderness. In my vision, it would be similar to Europe prior to colonization, with maybe 70-80 per cent of the land covered by forest. The Pagans--most of whom probably wouldn't even call themselves Pagan--would be much more numerous than the people in the growing cities. Only a small portion of them, however, would even have encountered city folk, with those closest to cities the most extreme in their beliefs.

 

Again, I don't see any need to "overdevelop" your setting, so I'm not sure if this would be relevent or not to the campaign that the team is planning. Mostly I'm just curious to hear some of your thoughts on the matter.

 

Oh, and for the record, yes, I know it's not a "Thief" mod, but a "Thief-like" mod. Let's just pretend, for a few seconds, that it isn't.

[oDDity]

I see it pretty much like an 18th century Earth, where they made some scientific discoveries before we did, so their technological evolution is not quite the same

THere are other cities outside this one, oter countries, other continents - which they trade with using their cargo ships.

THe biggest difference being that in this universe, the laws of physics permit magic, and the periodic table contains different elements.

If it were up to me,I would not have any msgic or woo in the game at all.

[Springheel]

Since we're primarily making a toolset right now, it doesn't actually have a setting. That is, we need to know what kind of artistic vision we're going for, and what our textures and models will look like. Pagans look like celtic tribesmen, for instance.

 

Most of the 'setting' ideas are left for the campaign, however.

[thestemmer]

Springheel:

 

I'm not looking for a comprehensive artistic vision from the team, just a few informal ideas about what members might want their setting to look like. Unless you'd rather discuss it as a group first, that is.

 

On a side note, could anybody define "woo" for me? I've heard the term thrown around a lot by OdDity and others, but I'm not sure what it entails. Is it a sarcastic way of referring to magic, as in MAGIC WOOHOO, or WoOoOoO, like a ghostly sound? Maybe it's an acronym for something, or a word translated from Klingon? I really have no idea.

[sparhawk]

I think it means everything refering to supernatural, but I could be wrong. That's just how I interpret it.

[Macsen]

The Imperium campaign explains pretty much all the history that surrounds the Thief games (including T2x, unless they pull something out of the bag soon that turns the whole world on it head, which looks unlikely in this low key pirate story they've got going on, but hey, it's Thief... You Never Know!)

 

The Dark Mod world will probably be fleshed out beyond the borders of our campaign by the FM makers. It's a darker, more dangerous place than the Tief City though (if that were possible). Probably because the gaping orifice of hell itself lies in wait below.

[Fingernail]

I suppose you could say it was set in another city in the same world. Another continent, probably another time, although neither specified.

[Bukary]

I hope the Dark Mod will allow us to create medieval-like settings (T1/TDS-like). I really hate "victorianism" of T2...

Edited June 5, 2005 by Bukary

[Renzatic]

We'll have medieval sets, but right now we're leaning more towards a grungy and smoggy 18th-19th century London setting with alot of steampipes, boilers, and whatnot.

 

So it'll probably have a more Victorian bent to it, but won't look much like T2's Victorian/Art Deco style.

[Bukary]

but won't look much like T2's Victorian/Art Deco style.

That's good news. 18th century London seems to be great for thiefy purposes.

 

T1 was also full of machinery (great street lamps!), yet it was used in a much better way than Mechanists' inventions in T2 IMHO.

[Maximius]

Just a note, I am a big fan of the spaghetti westerns, "the good, bad, ugly", " fistful of dollars", "death rides a horse", etc. So Im watching "For a few dollars more" the other night and Im trying to figure out where the heck I have seen the striped wallpaper, gas lamps , and frosted glass doors and it hits me, the Thief series, at least 1 and 2! The period of the films corresponds to the Victorian era so it makes sense.

 

BTW for those who dont know the spaghetti westerns were cowboy movies made by mostly Italian directors and known for their beautiful landscapes, heavy violence, and themes of greed, revenge, and redemtion. They ranged from the 1960s to early 70s, the greatest example being the Good the Bad and the Ugly.

[Renzatic]

You have a point there. I wouldn't go so far as to say it'd all work, but the interiors, the way they're lit, the dirty and lived in look, the sorta lonely and out of the way feel about em...I'd say it could fit in with what I've been thinking of.

[Maximius]

Its pretty close in some scenes. In the beginning of the G, the B, and the Ugly, when Angel Eyes (Lee Van Cleef) is hiding and waiting for the prostitute to come home so he can get some info from her, the scene could be lifted right out of Thief. Shadows, creaking doors and floors, gaslamps flickering, half seen faces in the dark, timid voice saying "who's there?"

 

I wonder if I can play Thief and watch spaghettis at the same time? Nah, the girl would definitely dump me then.

 

BTW are you a fan of the spaghettis, renzatic?

[Domarius]

BTW for those who dont know the spaghetti westerns were cowboy movies made by mostly Italian directors

And apparently that's where the "comical" american indian accent came from, the one how they sound like "How. Me big chief running bear."

[obscurus]

Have you guys seen this mod?

 

Excomunicated

 

Slightly simliar theme to DarkMod, but more mediaeval than Victorian. Maybe there could be some sharing of resources between the two mods...? Do you (the development team) check out other peoples work, or are you mostly working off your own ideas?

Looks quite interesting, although I think DarkMod has more to offer stealth officionados like me...

[Renzatic]

Yeah, that's ole Tyrot's new mod. It looks pretty damn promising, and knowing Tyr's skills he'll be able to pull it off.

[oDDity]

Tyrot used to be on our team until he betrayed us and went off and started this rival project.

[sparhawk]

He didn't "betray" and I would prefer if you remove that word. He contributed of his free time, as all of us do, and if "certain" people would have been more tactfull and helpfull he might be still on our team. But even so, it is his choice to spend his time on whatever he chooses to.

[Fingernail]

I think Oddity was joking.

[@Zion]

Are you guys considering making the mechanists models and textures into the mod ??

[John D.]

Are you guys considering making the mechanists models and textures into the mod ??

I'd love to see that myself.

As for excommunicated, it looks very promising-kind of like 1300's Europe with the stuff in da Vinci's drawings really existing! Nice work, but it really seems to differ in theme from the Dark Mod in the fact it appears to have action as well as stealth elements.

Edited June 6, 2005 by John D.

[kwc]

Hmm, I like the idea of 18./19. century feel.

 

I actually always thought it would be cool if some company made a game like Thief, only set in 19. century england... With Jack The Ripper and all I always thought victorian era was actually quite gritty, perhaps not as much as medieval times, but still.... Perhaps someone will make a mod for TDM haha. Hey, that would be cool, a mod for a mod...

[Maximius]

And apparently that's where the "comical" american indian accent came from, the one how they sound like "How.  Me big chief running bear."

Are you sure about that? The spaghettis very rarely dealt with Native Americans as I understand it, I dont think they would have had enough of a presence in the genre for it to be the wellspring of such stereotyping.

 

Most of the spaghettis had a American/Western European leads often with a lot of Spanish supporting casts. Many were shot in the Spanish desert, cheaper than the USA. Thats why so many of the story lines took place around the Mexican/US border, plenty of Spanish extras to play the role of Mexican bandits, peasants, and soldiers. So the characters tend to be Anglo and Spanish American, with Native Amercians usually playing "walk-on" roles.

 

I would suspect the Hollywood Westerns to be a greater source of the stereotyping of Native Americans. The old "here comes the calvary" style Westerns were pretty harsh at that. Not that the spaghettis are'nt loaded with bigotry and racism, but there is an important difference that I have come to notice. In the older cowboys, the bigotry is often presented from the White Guys Point of View. What I mean is, the Anglo lead characters set the standard, while all others fail to meet up to. To the viewer, the lead characters whiteness is set apart and above by the stupidity, clumsiness, ignorance, etc. of the non-white characters.

 

In the spaghettis, the standard drifts from a white centered ideal to a more diverse one. Sure there is still stereotyping, bigotry, but now its applied much more broadly. Anglos are no longer the starting point for understanding the world presented in the film, they are jumbled together with Spanish, Am. Ind.,Af. Amer., and even Asian characters.

 

Wow, this is off topic, reverse engines!

Edited June 6, 2005 by Maximius

[oDDity]

It's funny you shoul dmention that kwc, after the Dark Mod, we plan to use the toolset to make a rape simulator mod. You basically play a Jack the Ripper type character called Dr. Faustus in a steampunk Victorian setting, who prowls the steets at night raping prositutes and then cutting them up.

Faustus is mad - he thinks that regularly eating the bolied clitoris' of his victims will endow him with everlasting life.

It'll be called Dr. Faustus Comes to London, or Crimson Death.

[Fingernail]

Pay close attention to your irony meter guys.