Jump to content
The Dark Mod Forums

Recommended Posts

The #metoo movement went with a credible "testimony" against one of my favorite video game music composers - Jeremy Soule. I always made it a rule for myself not judge of an artist/writer/composer by his personality but just to look at his professional work. Don't know if I can be indifferent to this.

Would you like to listen to the music of a rapist henceforth? 

http://www.nathalielawhead.com/candybox/calling-out

Edited by Anderson
Sensationalist.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well... I still watch movies made by Roman Polanski.

Apart from that, I'm very sceptical about the #metoo movement. It's so easy for women to take the victim role, and put themselves in a power position. Extremely controversial topic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I enjoy art to enjoy the art, not to endorse the person who made it. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

____________ is a rapist.

Fill in the blank, post an essay somewhere, and you have ruined or at least severely derailed a life.

No evidence, and no police report was ever filed? No problem. Social media is the court.

In this specific case, it looks like Jeremy Soule deactivated all social media accounts, and his "agency representative" is also not responding. This could be the right move, as saying nothing is probably better than making a generic apology for "the hurt I've caused" if you think you are innocent of the major claims. Say the wrong thing, and it will be used to beat you into the ground. Update: He has denied the allegations.

Accusations against two others in the industry came out in solidarity later, with one accusation from someone who allegedly grifted tens of thousands of dollars from Kickstarter backers without delivering a product.

Pursuing false accusers in a real court is possible, but could be difficult and will cost you tens of thousands of dollars, if not $100k+.

Anyone who is actually raped should seek help from the police immediately, so evidence can be gathered before it is too late. If the #MeToo movement can reduce the stigma of reporting rape, and force departments and prosecutors to seriously investigate claims, that is a good thing.

Earlier in the year, it was reported that Soule had not been contacted by Bethesda about doing the score for TES 6. It might stay that way now that Soule is being dragged into the mud. But given the abject failure of Fallout 76, Bethesda may be incapable of putting out quality games anymore. Time to move on?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, chakkman said:

It's so easy for women to take the victim role,

I'm not saying that every case has to be true, but every case I read was so detailed and painful, and often published by trusted media (e.g. NewYorker series on the film industry). So I'd say it's been everything but easy for these women to open up like that and disclose such horrific, humiliating details. And unfortunately, that does influence my reception of the artist. The work less so, but I usually stop watching movies or listening to music of such person. E.g. "The last tango in Paris" was a great and important movie, but Brando and Bertolucci were dickeads, who destroyed that girl's life and never paid for it. And I will remember that every time anyone suggests watching it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, peter_spy said:

I'm not saying that every case has to be true, but every case I read was so detailed and painful, and often published by trusted media (e.g. NewYorker series on the film industry). So I'd say it's been everything but easy for these women to open up like that and disclose such horrific, humiliating details.

Can The New Yorker or other "trusted" news outlets do anything to verify the allegations? Maybe they can check some basic details to make sure people were in the right place at the right time, but other than that, they will just print the stories. Plenty of people can write a good story or cry on camera.

The problem is that slogging someone in public may not lead to actual justice. At best, it will empower other victims to come forward with credible allegations that can lead to criminal penalties or a remedy in civil court. R. Kelly is a good example of this since there was an apparent harem situation ongoing for years, sustained and protected by emotional manipulation, and new criminal charges have been filed (they supposedly have video evidence). At worst, a public accusation will become a "he said, she said" fiasco, irreparably damage reputations, careers, and families, and expose someone to mob justice or cause them to commit suicide.

As for separating art from the artist, that's up to the individual. If you do/don't want to watch Roman Polanski, Woody Allen, Bernardo Bertolucci, etc., that's your preference. The one thing I would object to is pulling films off the shelves, including digital storefronts, or chucking them into a black hole instead of releasing them. One of Kevin Spacey's films managed to get a limited release, but Louis C.K.'s I Love You, Daddy is pretty much shitcanned beyond being played once at a film festival (the plot and it being a Woody Allen homage didn't help). I think some radio stations were toying with taking Michael Jackson songs out of the rotation after Leaving Neverland, even though there is a lot of doubt over those allegations and the prior allegations against Jackson (including the 1994 settlement).

Edited by jaxa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Plenty of people can write a good story or cry on camera.

That seems highly unreasonable in the rape cases, both the one above and e.g. the Weinstein fiasco (the theme is basically the same). There's no personal benefit to the victims, to come up with this a decade or decades later, especially while showing real name and a photo on a website.

Btw. I'm not up for censorship either, people can make their minds about the works, and it should stay that way. Although note that publishers are people too, so they might pull the plug.

https://kotaku.com/two-women-accuse-skyrim-composer-jeremy-soule-of-sexual-1837677315

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There can certainly be personal benefits gained as a result of an accusation. National media coverage portraying someone in a favorable light could jumpstart a film career, or lead to job offers and other assistance. You could also have a mix of legitimate and false accusations. Christine Blasey Ford was regarded by some as a credible and convincing accuser of Justice Brett Kavanaugh. The later accuser Julie Swetnick, represented by Michael Avenatti? Not so much.

Weinstein is locked out of the industry permanently, but he may be able to beat the criminal charges (involving just two women) if prosecutors don't have much on him. If he does, he's bound for Europe with as much money as he can secure.

Also:

http://archive.is/hsUm3#selection-845.0-869.43

Quote

Two women, an independent game developer and a vocalist, on Monday night accused famed video game composer Jeremy Soule, best known for his musical work on games like Guild Wars and Skyrim, of sexually predatory behavior and, according to the game developer, rape. Soule denied the game developer’s accusations, calling them “outrageous” in a message to Kotaku today, and when asked about the vocalist’s accusations, told Kotaku he does “not agree with her point of view.”

Thread title should read "alleged rapist".

Edited by jaxa
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

They said they felt like Soule took advantage of them, offering advice and professional support. Yet when these women turned down his romantic advances, they told Kotaku, Soule thwarted their professional opportunities in what the women saw as retaliation

Makes you wonder what men are supposed to offer these days.

Offer of support = rape.

What times.

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The words "credible" and "#MeToo" don't even belong in the same sentence. There's nothing remotely credible about unproven allegations made in the media (which they have to be, since the ones made in court tend to have a nasty habit of collapsing once the actual evidence is tested).

It's even more astonishing that people are still clinging to the ridiculous non-argument of "Why would victims lie, there's nothing in it for them?!?!?"", given how many bullshit allegations have been shot down recently. Is it not blindingly obvious by now how much attention and sympathy is lavished upon anyone who can call themself an "oppressed victim"? Why do you think everyone and their dog is now coming out as "transgender", "autistic" or whatever the latest fashionable and unfalsifiable victimhood category is?

#MeToo really is the appropriate name. Everybody wants a piece of the fake victimhood pie. I'm a victim too! Me too! Me too! Me Too!

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jaxa said:

There can certainly be personal benefits gained as a result of an accusation. Christine Blasey Ford was regarded by some as a credible and convincing accuser of Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

She also made over 600 thousand dollars through donations:

https://www.gofundme.com/help-christine-blasey-ford

She may indeed have given much of it to charity, but the point remains: alleged victims get money thrown at them just for being victims. It is ludicrous to pretend that there is no possible reason for someone to make a false allegation when there is overwhelming evidence that (1) people do make false allegations (see Carl Beech), and (2) making an allegation can result in significant financial or personal benefits.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Springheel said:

I enjoy art to enjoy the art, not to endorse the person who made it. 

That's my point of view as well.

Who knows? Your favorite director or actor could be the biggest d***head in the world and you wouldn't even know.

Other than that, i completely agree with what Orb Weaver stated. At the very least, the whole thing should be taken with much caution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow, the amount of defensive reaction and bias towards men's perspective in this thread is... staggering. And I'm saying it as a man.

I must say I expected more nuanced or wiser reaction from this community, so I shall refrain from the further discussion, in order not to enrage or loose the last ounces of respect for those who have spoken here.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is very true that cases of perjury that bring the situation up to false criminal charges being brought against an innocent person of committing the crime of rape is very grave, if that is the case and they can bring profit like any criminal conduct.

 

In this case there have been no formal charges filed by the victim, most likely it is useless due to statutory limits, having no legal perspective or simply no proof to qualify for a criminal case. Thus, no criminal case - no presumption of innocence. Unless Jeremy Soule wants to go to court over this, it's discussable how much in dubio pro reo he can benefit from if he doesn't use it in a trial. Rights are meaningless if you don't use them.

 

As far as I read from the article - this is a freedom of expression matter. If Jeremy Soule has something to clarify, he better do it. The girl just wrote an article in a blog post in an emotional outburst. Better writing it down to make amends with your heart and move on than to question if you should have done something within your powers and hesitated.

If it's rape or on the borderline of sexual harassment behavior it's all the more sad for the victim. It's one thing to be Angela Davis or Larry Flint and it is entirely different to be an incognito simple mortal with limited resources and time. Nobody's perfect but the truth is the truth. After all even if criminal charges are brought, the supreme goal is the triumph of truth with sufficient evidence.

Edited by Anderson
Inserted comma. Completed unfinished phrases.

"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Wow, the amount of defensive reaction and bias towards men's perspective in this thread is... staggering. And I'm saying it as a man.

I must say I expected more nuanced or wiser reaction from this community, so I shall refrain from the further discussion, in order not to enrage or loose the last ounces of respect for those who have spoken here.

Wiser, eh? People are wising up to the problems of the defamation free-for-all on social media. If you want to publicly accuse someone of criminal behavior, do it in court.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, peter_spy said:

Wow, the amount of defensive reaction and bias towards men's perspective in this thread is... staggering.

I think this has to do with the amount of MeToo accusations that were false. The false accusations unfortunately have kind of destroyed and discredited what the movement should actually stand for, which is helping the women that are really being sexually abused, harassed, etc.

In this case I have read Nathalie's whole post from top to bottom and although the way she has been treated during her early career is horrible, there's no sort of proof that she has been raped by Jeremy Soule. The way she says he has treated her and almost destroyed her career and life could be enough incentive to falsely accuse him of rape (to get back at him for how her fellow colleagues treated her, for discrediting her, for putting her in a bad daylight, etc.) The hatred for what that one person has done to her, to live in a hell for so many years, can be more than enough for a personal vendetta. She obviously has the skill to create such a story.

Now, I'm not saying that this is the case, but I'm also not a person to judge another person just based on one post. I still believe in the innocent until proven otherwise. The largest part of her post is about how bad she's treated and how Jeremy Soule is responsible for this. The part about the actual rape is just a tiny part of the post and could easily be fabricated by someone with her skills. She doesn't want any money out of this (as far as I understand), but nowadays an accusation of rape is enough to destroy the life of one person, just like how Soule almost destroyed hers. So although it could all be true that Soule raped her, it could also be true that he made her life a living hell (without raping her) and she wants to get back at him and knows that accusing someone with a rape story is enough to destroy a career.

I personally find it disturbing how fast someone nowadays is found guilty by the world for something that hasn't been proven yet. All the men that are proven guilty deserve all the hatred that they receive/have received and for the ones that go free (even though they are guilty), I believe the bill will always be paid in the end (one way or the other). But burning everyone like witches after a rape accusation that hasn't been proven is not the way IMO.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I do believe that ultimately courts are the place where such things should be settled, as that is the pillar of the democratic system we all agreed to move on as a western civilisation, basically. It's not about getting back to have people stoned because of twitter posts (although there are many who'd love such "swift justice" these days, unfortunately...)

But all of the posts above, including yours Carnage, kind of assume that rape is more like a car accident. Okay, someone bumped onto me, it happens sometimes. Now we go to court, or settle the things between us, the police, and our insurance companies. Logical, rational thing, no need to get too upset, right? It also assumes that the justice system works flawlessly and isn't biased towards men perspective. And that women aren't afraid to turn to justice system, where they often have to sit in the same court room with the perpetrator and are prone to retaliation between court sessions, without any protection.

I thought you don't have to be raped to know that, or even have someone among friends or family who's been raped or molested at work. You'd just have to actually read and try to understand one or two such statements, in good reporting pieces on the subject, and have the both intelligence and empathy levels slightly higher than most bacteria.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The irony here is that we are posting in a thread entitled "The rapist Jeremy Soule" about a guy who has never been convicted of rape, and denies allegations of rape.

Maybe the bias isn't helping men so much after all.

Edited by jaxa

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get what you're saying peter_spy, but just like any crime it's difficult to prove so many years after the act. And just because someone writes down a detailed description of what happened, it still isn't anything more than just that: a detailed description of one person. Crucifying one person because of that doesn't seem to be the way for me. How many men have actually had their careers destroyed because of false accusations, but they are just collateral right, for the greater good. I don't try to sympathize with the actual rapers, I'm just trying to say that like every crime it has to be proven first. And if there isn't any proof, then you just have to hope that the guy stepped out of line more than once (what a lot of times is the case) and these women come forward as well with their stories.

The good thing about MeToo, is that it will improve the live of women now. As rapists will think twice to step out of line. For the victims of these crimes years ago it unfortunately might not change anything, because like you said, it isn't just a car accident that can be proven easily.

Edit: Just because there are people that don't immediately believe a detailed story like you and want proof first, it doesn't mean they choose the side of the rapists. I know that is kind of the way discussions are done nowadays (if you're not with me, you're against me), but I condone rapists just as much as you do. The only difference is that I first want some kind of proof before I look different at one person. One of my best friends was falsely accused for sexual conduct with an underaged girl and he can't live in his home town anymore, he lost almost all his friends, lost his job and recently left the country to start a new life. Because even though the charges were false, people had already crucified him. That might explain why I don't believe a story that easily, no matter how detailed.

Edited by Carnage
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get all that, and I hoped that it's obvious that I'm not taking any sides, so we can avoid walls of text about the basics. But like I said, even with the clickbaity title, I'm disappointed with the overall one-sided defensiveness and soullessness so far. The comparison to car accident was not because of logical reasons or difficulty of the courtroom proceedings, but because of how it affects an individual emotionally, how it destroys a person and everything they are - and how every reaction here casually dismiss that perspective, because "she might just be an attention-seeking whore".

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my own defense, I've never said such a thing and would never think that either. Being skeptical or wanting to see proof doesn't mean I dismiss her perspective. It's absolutely horrible if it is true (even though after reading about her work life you'd think her life couldn't get any worse). I just want justice to be served, whatever side that is. Did you take a look at some of the sites linked at the bottom of the article? Some of them had the option to comment and I couldn't find one comment that wanted to wait for proof first, he's already crucified. After being on the other side of the story, I know how horrible it can be to be falsely accussed. We'll see how this will turn out in the end.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Most people seldom read the news and the author will get his royalty fee no matter what. He'll get along.

On another note now I know what was it that made Daggerfall a better game (Eric Heberling is underrated) for me.

 


"I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://nichegamer.com/2019/08/31/night-in-the-woods-dev-alec-holowka-dies-after-zoe-quinn-sexual-assault-allegations/

#MeToo claims another life. Timeline appears to be:

1. Jeremy Soule accused.
2. This other man gets accused (by a known attention-seeking grifter).
3. He loses his job.
4. He logs off.

Were the allegations true? Maybe. Were they actionable? Unlikely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.pcgamer.com/night-in-the-woods-developer-alec-holowka-has-died/

 

It was a rapist (holowka  too was accused in these days)? Who knows, but now - after a life of mental care - the accusation of rape was suicide-inducing.

Well done..... (I'm ironic). Maybe the "victims" must go for the law route, not the bash-the-monster route....

Edited by lowenz

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...