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Sin 2 :)

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It's irony gentlemen. Obscurus was taking the piss.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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What really bothers me about the modern publishing system is that your work eventually becomes someone elses property.

 

If I invent a character that is well liked and end up going through a publisher to gain a wider audience, as soon as I sign the contract that character is no longer mine. That's complete and utter bullshit, I did the work, I fleshed out the character, why should I have permission to use what I made if I wanna write a sequel?

 

That's why I somewhat support platforms like STEAM. Flawed though it is in it's current form, it allows much more freedom in getting your ideas out to the public. If Valve handles it right we could be seeing a future of publishing without having to deal with greedy middlemen.

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It's often those greedy middlemen who are putting up the money to get the job done in the first place though.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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It's often those greedy middlemen who are putting up the money to get the job done in the first place though.

 

 

And they get their money from previous jobs done. Developers need to slowly but surely start taking that money away from them, using concepts like cost effective content delivery systems


Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!

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Whereas, for instance, every death metal track is 100% original and unique?

 

All music is "derivative" of other works in its genre, and any genre you do not like or are unfamiliar with will sound pretty homogeneous. Music is just like software - it evolves and builds on previous ideas, rather than inventing something completely new at each step.

That depends on your taste. I enjoy listening to Hans Zimmer's soundtracks, while Howard Shore's LoTR work was superb.

 

 

As oDDity pointed out, I was being a little ironic. Of course, most Death metal is just as derivative as any other form of music, there are only so many combinations of notes that are going to work, so all music is really derivative of something. My point was more that what one person regards as the pinnacle of high art, may well seem like incomprehensible rubbish to someone else, and it all really comes down to personal taste, rather than some actual objective difference. Oh, and I did like the LOTR soundtrack, I wasn't saying I only liked John Williams, just that he is one of few. There are a number of other soundtracks I really like, like the Conan the Barbarian soundtrack for example...

 

And as oDDity said, just about any talentless fuck can get rich making some lame piece of crap recording these days - if there was no copyright, relatively few musicians would become famous, and only the ones with real talent and genuine popular appeal could make a living out of it... I am not opposed to things like

Steam in principle, it is just the way it was implemented, and the fact that a lot of people still don't have access to broadband, that really gets my goat. I am all for circumventing the middle man, although as was pointed out, those middle men do cough up a lot of cash

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The whole concept of "cutting out the middleman" is flawed anyway. They aren't cutting out the middleman, they are just making a new one. Steam (and Valve) is now it. They have become, effectively, publishers. And while now one can say that as developers, they are sure to value the integrity of projects, blah, blah, blah, the same could be said of the original game publishers. Back then, it wasn't a business, it was a passion. Publishers were in it to make money, sure, but they also wanted to put out a great game.

 

So while Valve and Steam may briefly harken back to those days (albeit in a rather spectacularly bad fashion), it won't take long for them (or whoever ends up controlling the system) to focus more on making money and less on great games. At which point we'll be right back where we started from.

 

Bh

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As oDDity pointed out, I was being a little ironic.  Of course, most Death metal is just as derivative as any other form of music, there are only so many combinations of notes that are going to work, so all music is really derivative of something.  My point was more that what one person regards as the pinnacle of high art, may well seem like incomprehensible rubbish to someone else, and it all really comes down to personal taste, rather than some actual objective difference. 

Nonsense. The fact that Bach's Wohltemperirte Clavier or Beethovens 9th is a better constructed piece of music, and more historically important and influential than some 3 minutes of pointless death metal noise consisting of the same 4 chords played repeatedly, is not a matter of objectivity oir personal taste.

It's an actual fact that the former is better in any possible way you'd care to fornulate the rules of what 'better' means.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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If I invent a character that is well liked and end up going through a publisher to gain a wider audience, as soon as I sign the contract that character is no longer mine. That's complete and utter bullshit, I did the work, I fleshed out the character, why should I have permission to use what I made if I wanna write a sequel?

 

The answer is simple. It's about money. Nobody forces you to sign the contract, but if you want to publish and can not do it yourself, you have to find somebody who offers you a contract. It's up to you to renegotiate the conditions.

 

That's why I somewhat support platforms like STEAM. Flawed though it is in it's current form, it allows much more freedom in getting your ideas out to the public. If Valve handles it right we could be seeing a future of publishing without having to deal with greedy middlemen.

 

You don't really think that Valve "handles it right", do you? IMO this would be rather naive. They are doing what is in THEIR interest and if it happens to coincide with yours, you are lucky.


Gerhard

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It's an actual fact that the former is better in any possible way you'd care to fornulate the rules of what 'better' means.

 

That is ddity as we love him. Stubborn and single minded.

 

ANY possible way of defining better certainly includes also the taste of the listener and by this defintion 'better' is purely subjective. Thus it is proven that you can NOT define 'better' in any way you want and still make the claim that classic music is 'better' in all regards. Because if somebody doesn't like classic music, then it is NOT better from his point of view.

 

Aside from that, I can not understand how Trash is called music anway. It's simply noise. There is no rythm or anything that music is associated with. Going into a steel manufacturing site, you probably hear the same noise all day long, but nobody would consider to record this as music. :)


Gerhard

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Nonsense. The fact that Bach's Wohltemperirte Clavier or Beethovens 9th is a better constructed piece of music, and more historically important and influential than some 3 minutes of pointless death metal noise consisting of the same 4 chords played repeatedly, is not a matter of objectivity oir personal taste.

It's an actual fact that the former is better in any possible way you'd care to fornulate the rules of what 'better' means.

 

I see you point, and agree with it somewhat but it is all still subjective. There are as many people in the world that would argue classical music is far to contained by the rules laid down by Bach and others, and they would be right. They classical composers managed to bring a world of expression to their music with these rules, but killed off much of the traditional folk music in the process due to the rules they created.

 

Listen to traditional Romany music and you will find it has harsh melodies and sounds that to our ear are discordant. There is nothing wrong with the traditional music but to our ears they sound wrong as we are used to listening to traditional harmonies and chords who’s rules Bach and other pioneered

 

I would not look on modern music so harshly. Yes there is a large amount of rubbish but then modern music in its various forms, has been around for barely a hundred years, and still uses the same basic rules of structure of classical, while classical has been developed over centuries. Also classical contains its share of dross. Thankfully you have to dig to find it now, but it is there.

 

Give it a few centuries and I’m sure classical and "modern" will be able to stand together, as both even now contain outstanding pieces. But whether the audience for them will ever merge is a different matter.

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Quailty is not based on user numbers or individual preference. A set of rules about what defines good quality music has been formulated and refined over hundreds of years. There have to be rules, otherwise anything could be refered to as music.

These rules are nothing to do with whether you personally like the music or not. I dont' like listening to Wagner, but I still uinderstand and appreciate the high quality of his compositions.

These rules exist separate from current fashion trends. Noise like death metal meets very few of the criteria of what constitues good music. Whether some people like it or not is irrelivant.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Quailty is not based on user numbers or individual preference. A set of rules about what defines good quality music has been formulated and refined over hundreds of years. There have to be rules, otherwise anything could be refered to as music.

These rules are nothing to do with whether you personally like the music or not. I dont' like listening to Wagner, but I still uinderstand and appreciate the high quality of his compositions.

These rules exist separate from current fashion trends. Noise like death metal meets very few of the criteria of what constitues good music. Whether some people like it or not is irrelivant.

 

 

Bullshit. The so called rules of music are entirely arbitrary. And Death metal follows all the same "rules" as classical music, it just uses different instrumentation, and that is where the difference in sound comes from. If a Symphony orchestra were to perform Death Metal like Cannibal Corpse material (for example), it would sound like a cross between Gustav Holst and Stravinsky, with a lot of whole tone scales and polyrythmic elements. You might think it was written by a slightly avant garde 19th century composer if you didn't know any better. Or listen to the mind-boggling mathematical comlexity of Meshuggah's polyrythms, or the harmonic counterpoint in Opeth's material. If you listen to classical Hindu music, it has a different set of rules to western Classical music, but to say western classical music is better just ignorant and bigoted. The same applies to death metal, or rock, or techno - they have different musical "rules" to classical music, but that does not make them inferior... The rules of classical music tend to produce a sound that many people find stale and boring - it is only when the rules are broken that it begins to sound interesting and enjoyable (to me at least).

 

Anything can, and is, referred to as music, it all comes down to what the listener finds musical.

 

Edit: And for that matter, if you are defining the pinnacle of music on the basis that it has been developed over some period of time, then surely Indigenous Australian Didgeridoo music is the pinnacle of music, since it has been developed and refined for well over 40,000 years, and aside from tribal drumming, it is the oldest continuously practiced form of music. You really need to expand your mind out of your narrow little box if you think Western Classical Music is the final word on music... I suggest you sit down and listen to a good Hindu Raga, and learn all about the complexities and subtleties of quarter tones, Hindu pentatonic scales and bloody complex tabla rythms before you go around pompously declaring that Classical music is somehow better than anything else, or perhaps listen to a traditional Chinese Orchestra, which has been around for a bout four times as long as Western Classical music.

Edited by obscurus

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Nonsense.  The fact that Bach's Wohltemperirte Clavier or Beethovens 9th is a better constructed piece of music, and more historically important and influential than some 3 minutes of pointless death metal noise consisting of the same 4 chords played repeatedly, is not a matter of objectivity oir personal taste.

It's an actual fact that the former is better in any possible way you'd care to fornulate the rules of what 'better' means.

 

:rolleyes:

 

Your ignorance about death metal is profound. Death Metal is in fact, one of the most technically (if not the most) demanding musical styles to perform, as the objective of death metal musicians is to produce something that is extremely complex musically and requires a phenomenal level of instrumental proficiency to play... Most Death Metal guitarists could play Paganini without breaking a sweat, as Paganini's compositions are slow and simple in comparison to a typical progressive death metal tune. As a composer of both classically inspired music, and progressive/technical death metal, I have a fair bit of knowledge about the two styles of music. If you were to arrange and perform Beethoven's 9th with a Death Metal Band, it would sound like death metal because of the instrumentation, and it would be pretty heavy and aggressive anyway, as Beethoven's 9th was basically death metal played by a classical orchestra. He was really ahead of his time. Death Metal is essentally all based on classical music, played with heavily distorted guitars and gutteral vocals used more as a percussive instrument.

 

In terms of the level of technical prificiency required for performance, death metal is "better" than the vast majority of classical music. It is generally based on the same underlying structures, but taken to the extremes of difficulty and complexity. You will find very few classical guitarists who can match the speed and accuracy of a death metal guitarist, yet quite a lot of death metal guitarists can perform classical guitar pieces quite beutifully...

 

In terms of musical complexity, death metal far exceed all but the most avant garde classical or jazz music. Most death metal employs shifting, unusual time signatures, complex polyrythms, counterpoint, non-repetitive song structures, complex poly-scalar runs, while most classical music sticks rigidly to boring 3/4 and 4/4 time signatures, formulaic compositional structures that are so predictable you can guess accurately what the rest of the piece will sound like after the first bar, and rarely break out of the Major/Minor scale prison and do anything interesting.

 

In terms of popularity, it is probably about the same - most people find death metal too extreme, and most people find classical music boring.

 

Personally I find Bach's endlessly droning pieces consisting of boring repetitions of the major and minor scales so painful i would rather die than listen to it, with the exception of his Toccata and Fugue in D minor. To me Mozart sounds like someone torturing cats in a bath of acid, it is just ghastly noise to me...

 

The point is, music is what the listener or musician percieves as musical, there is no "better" form of music.

 

Basically, you are full of it oDDity :)

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You had something (because opinion is a major factor) until that post. ;) I half-think you're kidding about the "technically demanding" stuff?

 

Death (or other) metal, love it or hate it, is not one of the most technically demanding styles of music to perform. Vamping out a "complex" pattern on the E string, grinding through repetitive patterns of 5-chords, and breaking the monotony with a screaming arpeggio-laden and progressive scale based in-key solo, is not uncommon for a guitarist to pick up in under a year of play. If even only to compare one type of guitar ("metal" guitar) with another (classical guitar), the considerations for performance are SO different and unbalanced that they're not even the same instrument, really. Deafening, muted, distorted, chugged electric versus glass-smooth filed fingernails, one plectrum versus four (or more) attack fingers, jamming a repeating rhythm versus simultaneous solo performance of backing and lead melody lines, etc... no way.

 

And this is from a guitarist who spent his late teens and early twenties playing just such music - both kinds. The classical pieces I know are infinitely more challenging to perform well, in countless ways, than the latest Kirk Hammett solo. And today, every 20 cent band has an Yngwie or two (though I'm not one). I know, I know... "that's not death metal." ;) It should also be noted that speed does not necessarily equal skill.

 

That said, I think the majority of classical music simply sucks. It's boring, often complicated for no reason other than to be complicated ("Oh yes maestro, we're so impressed!"), and so goddamn derivative that you swear you have heard that same cadenza in a thousand different pieces. Yuck! Get a new idea, and stop copying the so-called "masters." Yet there are the gems that earn classical music the respect it deserves.

 

Now that last paragraph can be reworded for any type of music. (Well... except for Top-10. That's simply shit, consistently.) The majority of metal sucks, too. As far as I'm concerned, there are only a handful of metal bands worth listening to. The majority of everything sucks. But the gems are out there, in everything.

 

 

Edit: LOL, a post about Sin2 and Steam, no more!

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Bullshit.  The so called rules of music are entirely arbitrary.  And Death metal follows all the same "rules" as classical music, it just uses different instrumentation, and that is where the difference in sound comes from.  If a Symphony orchestra were to perform Death Metal like Cannibal Corpse material (for example), it would sound like a cross between Gustav Holst and Stravinsky, with a lot of whole tone scales and polyrythmic elements.  You might think it was written by a slightly avant garde 19th century composer if you didn't know any better.  Or listen to the mind-boggling mathematical comlexity of Meshuggah's polyrythms, or the harmonic counterpoint in Opeth's material.  If you listen to classical Hindu music, it has a different set of rules to western Classical music, but to say western classical music is better just ignorant and bigoted.  The same applies to death metal, or rock, or techno - they have different musical "rules" to classical music, but that does not make them inferior...  The rules of classical music tend to produce a sound that many people find stale and boring - it is only when the rules are broken that it begins to sound interesting and enjoyable (to me at least).

The rules have been constantly broken, revised and improvised over the last 500 years - that's how music evolves. Classical music all but died out around the 1940's and 50's and was replaced largely by the ideas of modernism by some cunt called Schoenberg who thought dissonance for it's own sake was the way to go, and calssical music basically became an anti-popularity exercise. Thats why you now have a situation where modern classical music has been shunned by the populace at large, in the same way modern 'art' has.

THe point of Metal is something for teenagers to annoy their parents with. They just want something as loud and offensive as possible for the purpose- any meaningless noise will do. Metal was created for this anarchistic social role, not as a form of music. Not surprsingly, it remains very popular among teenagers. It also shows the puerlie level at which anyone who likes it as an adult operates at.

 

Anything can, and is, referred to as music, it all comes down to what the listener finds musical.

I see, so any sound can be considered music can it? THe sound of your jeans being ripped off? THe squelching noise of you being raped up the ass? Your screams of pain?

Well, send me the recording of it anyway, I'll get a good laugh out of it at the very least, even if I don't start tapping my foot.

 

Edit:  And for that matter, if you are defining the pinnacle of music on the basis that it has been developed over some period of time, then surely Indigenous Australian Didgeridoo music is the pinnacle of music, since it has been developed and refined for well over 40,000 years, and aside from tribal drumming, it is the oldest continuously practiced form of music.  You really need to expand your mind out of your narrow little box if you think Western Classical Music is the final word on music...  I suggest you sit down and listen to a good Hindu Raga, and learn all about the complexities and subtleties of quarter tones, Hindu pentatonic scales and bloody complex tabla rythms before you go around pompously declaring that Classical music is somehow better than anything else, or perhaps listen to a traditional Chinese Orchestra, which has been around for a bout four times as long as Western Classical music.

What was all that blabbering in aid of? WJHere did I say European classic music was better than chinese or hindu? I was comparing earlier Western music to modern Western music.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I think you have to appreciate what Schoenberg was trying to do with Serialism. Also that it wasn't his only style of composition in his life.

 

He developed it because he saw a progression from simple fifths and octaves used in medieval music, to the modes of rennaisance music, then scales of classical, then chromaticism and tonal ambiguity of late romanticism, and thought it was getting all a bit too lawless and unstructured. So he developed an entirely new set of rules. Mind you, I agree that the end result often sounds pretty awful.

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You had something (because opinion is a major factor) until that post. ;)  I half-think you're kidding about the "technically demanding" stuff?

 

Death (or other) metal, love it or hate it, is not one of the most technically demanding styles of music to perform.  Vamping out a "complex" pattern on the E string, grinding through repetitive patterns of 5-chords, and breaking the monotony with a screaming arpeggio-laden and progressive scale based in-key solo, is not uncommon for a guitarist to pick up in under a year of play.  If even only to compare one type of guitar ("metal" guitar) with another (classical guitar), the considerations for performance are SO different and unbalanced that they're not even the same instrument, really.  Deafening, muted, distorted, chugged electric versus glass-smooth filed fingernails, one plectrum versus four (or more) attack fingers, jamming a repeating rhythm versus simultaneous solo performance of backing and lead melody lines, etc... no way.

 

And this is from a guitarist who spent his late teens and early twenties playing just such music - both kinds.  The classical pieces I know are infinitely more challenging to perform well, in countless ways, than the latest Kirk Hammett solo.  And today, every 20 cent band has an Yngwie or two (though I'm not one).  I know, I know... "that's not death metal."  ;)  It should also be noted that speed does not necessarily equal skill.

 

 

 

As someone who has several years of classical guitar training under his belt, and who writes and plays various styles of metal, as well as composing pseudo-classical symphonic soundtracks, I think you are perhaps confusing thrash and early death/speed metal with the type of stuff I am talking about... Metallica is shit, Kirk Hammet just plays the same licks over and over with lots of wah pedalling in an attempt to disguise his lack of talent... If you can find a classical guitarist who can play the stuff Frederik Thordendal can play, my hat goes off to you, because I doubt many can. Pick up a Spiral Architect CD (not death metal, but the band members play in other bands that are), and see just how much instrumental skill these musicians have. But you are right they are different instruments. Nevertheless, bassists like Alex Webster use all ten fingers in a way that all but a handful of musicians could emulate, and use texchniques like two handed tapping all over the fretboard quite liberally, so the same level of skill required for classical guitar playing is also required for this style of bass playing. And as a result of the common criticism that heavy metal is just noise, a lot of bands have set out to create music that requires a level of virtuosity beyond comparison to play... Say what you will about the skills of classical versus metal guitarists, but heavy metal drummers blow any other percusionists away in terms of skill.

 

Anyway the point I was trying to make was that

1) it is not true to state that heavy metal is simplisitic chugging on a couple of power chords, although there are a number of popular metal bands who could give you that impression, and there are quite a few bands who take technicality, complexity, non-repetitiveness and virtuosity to extremes, which is the same thing classical music often does, just with different instruments and different tunes.

2) If you like classical music, or you like metal, or rap, or pop, or jazz, or whatever, it doesn't matter. Nor does it matter whether the music you listen to is simple or complex, or requires a high degree of virtuosity to perform. If you like listening to it, that is the only thing that matters. Simple.

Edited by obscurus

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The rules have been constantly broken, revised and improvised over the last 500 years - that's how music evolves. Classical music all but died out around the 1940's and 50's and was replaced largely by the ideas of modernism by some cunt called Schoenberg who thought dissonance for it's own sake was the way to go, and calssical music basically became an anti-popularity exercise. Thats why you now have a situation where modern  classical music has been shunned by the populace at large, in the same way modern 'art' has.

 

I much prefer listening to Schoenberg over Bach or Mozart, but then I generally prefer dissonance over consonance, that is just me... Classical music has never been genuinely very popular - it has primarily been performed for the "enjoyment" of the aristocratic classes, who listen to it so they can feel sophisticated and posh, not because they really enjoy it. The most popular music has always been folk music, which is simple enough for people to sing along to, has catchy tunes, and doesn't go on for hours... And people like pop music for the same reason. Most people don't like classical music, they hate it just as much as death metal.

 

  THe point of Metal is something for teenagers to annoy their parents with. They just want something as loud and offensive as possible for the purpose- any meaningless noise will do. Metal was created for this anarchistic social role, not as a form of music. Not surprsingly, it remains very popular among teenagers. It also shows the puerlie level at which anyone who likes it as an adult operates at.

What a load of crap - I listen to metal for the same reason I listen to Holst's Planets Suite, or Stravinsky, or Wagner - I like agressive, loud, and generally complex music. It has nothing to do with my parents, or causing offense, or anarchism. Perhaps that describes you, but don't presume to tell me why I listen to it...

If you want puerile, listen to Mozart... Child prodigy my arse, he makes childish drivel that even good musicians have difficulty playing in a way that doesn't sound like some kind of KGB torture device... As for his original opera lyrics, his wife had to rewrite them because of their childish, scatological nature. Most classical music is a childish wank-fest dressed up as high society and culture.

 

I see, so any sound can be considered music can it? THe sound of your jeans being ripped off? THe squelching noise of you being raped up the ass? Your screams of pain?

Well, send me the recording of it anyway, I'll get a good laugh out of it at the very least, even if I don't start tapping my foot.

 

Yes. I belive what you have described is commonly referred to as "opera". I suggest you poke around the opera section of your record store, should you like some amusement.

 

Provided it has at least got rhythm, anything can be considered music. Whether you like the sound of some form of music/noise or not is personal preference, but anything that has rhythm and/or melody can be considered music. I find the sound of a big Ducati V-twin running in peak condition to be delightfully musical...

 

What was all that blabbering in aid of? WJHere did I say European classic music was better than chinese or hindu? I was comparing earlier Western music to modern Western music.

 

That wasn't clear in your posts, in fact it seemed to me that you were very obviously claiming Western Classical music was somehow better than all other forms of music, and you were starting to sound a bit pompous and narrow-minded ;)

Edited by obscurus

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I'm with you on Mozart, I find his stuff rather boring, but Bach? You can keep 99% of the classical period but the baroque was something else entirely.

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I'm with you on Mozart, I find his stuff rather boring, but Bach?  You can keep 99% of the classical period but the baroque was something else entirely.

 

 

I like a couple of Bach's pieces, but I find most of it too damn melodious. I like harshness, disonance, and I prefer music with an emphasis on rhythm over melody. Most of the classical music I like is the modern stuff, when composers started to really ignore the "rules" and write what they felt... The lack of percussion in most classical music is a trun off for me. I like drums, and lots of them :)

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I definitely hear your points, and I'm not trying to belittle any particular type of music (well, aside from Top 10 :P). If I came off that way, perhaps I worded things poorly. Believe me, I grew up on most of what we're speaking about here. However, I won't agree that being up on a stage in a silent concert hall, alone, with only a classical acoustic and 25 years of technique in hand, at all compares to picking as fast as possible while hiding behind a fuzzbox and reverb pedal in today's era of digital editing and Everyone's-An-Yngwie after 1.5 years of jamming.

 

What's important to me is what sounds good, not what is technically difficult. And I reiterate: most music - of all types - is shit. ^_^

 

When a gem is discovered, though... :wub:

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I definitely hear your points, and I'm not trying to belittle any particular type of music (well, aside from Top 10  :P).  If I came off that way, perhaps I worded things poorly.  Believe me, I grew up on most of what we're speaking about here.  However, I won't  agree that being up on a stage in a silent concert hall, alone, with only a classical acoustic and 25 years of technique in hand, at all compares to picking as fast as possible while hiding behind a fuzzbox and reverb pedal in today's era of digital editing and Everyone's-An-Yngwie after 1.5 years of jamming.

 

What's important to me is what sounds good, not what is technically difficult.  And I reiterate:  most music - of all types - is shit.  ^_^

 

When a gem is discovered, though...  :wub:

 

 

I might have given the impression that I only like music that is technically difficult, although I do like stuff that is challenging to play and listen to. I actually enjoy a lot fairly simple stuff that has a catchy groove, a good hook, and lasts for about 3 minutes a song. I like technical stuff from a musicians point of view, but from a listeners point of view I sometimes just like a good song I can sing (badly) along to (as long as it is not in the top 40)...

 

Being onstage alone playing a classical guitar takes a lot of talent, but so does playing insanely complicated atonal technical metal music in 13/16 timeat 230 bpm, keeping precise machine like time with 4 or 5 other musicians and doing it live onstage with no sheet music in front of you... As a guitarist who is reasonably pround of his technical 6 string prowess, be it accoustic or electric, I get shat off when people don't appreciate how much skill it takes to play some styles of metal. You don't have to like it, just don't make unfounded judgements about the musical skill involved. I hate the bulk of classical music, but it takes a lot of skill to play a violin or a cello (for example), so I won't go suggesting the musicians aren't any good - they do the best with the material they are given. And Yngwie's neoclassical metal adventures are less popular than both classical and metal - most people who like metal hate him because he polutes his music with too much melody and poser wankerisms, most classical buffs hate him because they can't stand classical music being polluted with anything that isn't at least 200 years old and requries electricity...

 

And while it might sound like indecipherable noise to the non-connosoir, metal actually has a lot of subtlety that you will miss entirely if you start out with the misguided preconception that it is talentless noise, based on hearing crap bands like Metallica etc...

 

But I totaly agree with you - most music of all types is bollocks

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I like a couple of Bach's pieces, but I find most of it too damn melodious.  I like harshness, disonance, and I prefer music with an emphasis on rhythm over melody.  Most of the classical music I like is the modern stuff, when composers started to really ignore the "rules" and write what they felt...  The lack of percussion in most classical music is a trun off for me.  I like drums, and lots of them :)

 

You're having a laugh again, right? Bach was an extremely daring harmonist given the style he composed in. You just listen to his three and four part fugues. Too melodious = :rolleyes:

Yes, he was a die hard conservative, which makes the music he created all the more amazing, and the fact that he influenced just about every composer who lived after him. Das wohltemperierte klavier alone is enough to put him among the all time greats, never mind the thouisands of other pieces he wrote.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I much prefer listening to Schoenberg over Bach or Mozart, but then I generally prefer dissonance over consonance, that is just me...  Classical music has never been genuinely very popular - it has primarily been performed for the "enjoyment" of the aristocratic classes, who listen to it so they can feel sophisticated and posh, not because they really enjoy it.  The most popular music has always been folk music, which is simple enough for people to sing along to, has catchy tunes, and doesn't go on for hours...  And people like pop music for the same reason.  Most people don't like classical music, they hate it just as much as death metal.

 

Nonsense. Most common people didn't have the opportunity to hear anything other than local yokels playing folk tunes. . Also, most of the greatest 'classical' music from various eras was either klaviercentric, and they were expensive instruments, or for skilled ensembles or orchestras The only music people had access to was music they played themselves, and they mostly wouldn't have had the skill to play the classics even if they could have affored the sheet music - in fact, most of them wouldn't have learned to read music at all, they'd have learned to play by ear from their parents. THey certainlty couldn't afford to go to concerts.

Those are the reasons why folk music was more popular, not because people heard the classics and didn't like them, but because folk was all they had.

What a load of crap - I listen to metal for the same reason I listen to Holst's Planets Suite, or Stravinsky, or Wagner - I like agressive, loud, and generally complex music.  It has nothing to do with my parents, or causing offense, or anarchism.  Perhaps that describes you, but don't presume to tell me why I listen to it...

Well, of course you're not going to admit it :rolleyes:

Everyone I knew who listened to that rubbish did it to be cool and annoy people - that's all it's good for. Then those people grew up.

If you want puerile, listen to Mozart... 

I don't like Mozart so I'm not in a position to argue with you, but there are millions of people who would.

I was just listening to Betthoven's 9th symphony this morning - an hour and ten minutes of pure excellence. Are you trying to tell me with a straight face than any Metal or Thrash jingle can even be put in the same league with that?


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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