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Ombrenuit

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I think it would be most dull to ape history like that. Why not have the foreigners as the rich and powerful visitors who treat the "Euro" types as slaves and mistreat the people from the City they employ to hawk thier foreign wares, and who have the money and power to spit on the Watch with no fear of reproach?

 

That would be neet too, different noble sections of town, different ghettos. with a recurring backdrop of incidents, slurs, suspicious mutterings, and finger pointing between the groups involved. Damn it would add a lot to the realism of the streets.

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The great thing is that there's plenty of room in the Dark Mod City for all these ideas. It's a huge hodgepodge of different styles and races. The FM author can do anything he likes without really worrying about continuity with the other missions. It just contributes to the City's image as a massive, culturally varied jumble of life.

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Or maybe he was just French, so the idea of France as the capital of all wisdom and Britain as a swampy armpit appealed to him.

 

It was actually a woman and hell, I might be a history major because of her ;)

Edited by Ombrenuit
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Pagans (pagans) Catholics(Hamorites) Mechanist(Protestant)and then the Pentaverate(the center seeking chi having yin yang loving KEEPERS) who guide the other factions towards a resolve of middle ground..

 

 

I hate all this talk of extra factions and more chinamen, I play thief because it is really very Anglo in the way it sees the whole dark-world. I play thief for comments about eye gouging and bear pits.

 

I would hate to have headdress wherein warriors (OH by the way indians(native americans or south Americans ) are not as advance and awesome as you guys think. they where easily beaten into submission by the Anglo influenced peoples ... ARGH dont turn it to some kind of ethnic soup...

 

All we need is some guards some clergy (Catholics) some darn Satanists(tree loving wiccans) and the rest can go to hell. especially those fn land loving fairy believin Celtic Witta Wicca I hate the hole thing please don’t mess up and create some soupy ethnic loving thing

 

by the way thief never had much diversity... all the factions all of them derived from peoples nothern europian people not even a olive colored Spaniard not a chinaman or even a good old Welch-man

 

Besides if you add these in they would be nothing but parodies (like blacks would be the spearchuckin people and Chinese would be the kimono wearing funny soundin noodle eaters) cant you c how offensive it would be to parody more than just one groupe of people… northern euros only please. Leave the rest alone…

 

Satanist good

Catholics good

Protestants good

City Watch good

KEEPERS (suck) so does yin yang...

Indians (Proud Native Americans) (no time they got casinos to run)

 

 

Just keep it simple...besides its ok to parody white dudes but you start parodying the various brown peoples and you are going to be labeled racists…

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cant you c how offensive it would be to parody more than just one groupe of people…

 

I don't think we're aiming to 'parody' any specific group...nor will they necessarily be chinese, native, or of south african descent. There will simply be some diversity. The resources we create for the toolset and for the campaign don't have to play by real world history or Thief history. This in a Thief "inspired" Mod afterall.

 

At any rate, I'm not the one making those resources so it's not my place to say exactly how they should/ will look.

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It was actually a woman and hell, I might be a history major because of her ;)

 

That explains it. Women just don't appreciate armpits. But she was French, right?

 

Congrats on being a history major. I just hope you're not studying the Celts, or we might get a bad name. ;)

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Please Radly, try not to embarrass us by thinking so base. We are thinking about a game here and just considering the creative possibilities and what would be cool, and we aren't considering ethnicities for some kind of political agenda. Thief was never a parody to begin with. One faction does not equal another "group" in our history--this is applicability not allegory--and you assume far too much by doing that. The City is an entity entirely in itself separate from our reality. We are merely trying to develop that world to make it as unique, mysterious, and enticing for the players as we can, much like writing a book. The Pagan ideas never were parodies or entirely native American either. Just because we brought up the idea of headdresses why would you assume that we are trying to parody a group? No, that would be far too foolish, we are trying to give the thief world a unique perspective in its own right and definitely not--and I repeat it---doing something as simplistic as "This equals This" as you suggest. Thief never was northern Europe, and Hammerites never were Catholics, do you honestly think that Thief was merely a game of parody? Do you honestly think that the genre of Fantasy can't be separated from it's inspirations? Lord of the Rings can't be unique, it has to equal such and such. It has to have ties to the Odyssey.

 

In short, you've got it all wrong; this is much greater then a "soupy ethnic loving thing." That part of your argument is entirely in your head, frankly, and has no place in this current reality. We are trying to create this new world, inspired by thief, but not equal to it; the idea would be that it was separable from Thief itself. We never once mentioned other factions, and although we mentioned the prospect of southern cities please. How could you honestly object to that? Also, anyone who has to reduce their argument to generalized name-calling has no argument; referring to the "Chinese would be the kimono wearing funny soundin noodle eaters". "I hate all this talk of extra factions and more chinamen" Find me--when you actually read the thread--anything that mentioned Kimonos or Chinese please.

Edited by Ombrenuit
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radley sez:

 

I would hate to have headdress wherein warriors (OH by the way indians(native americans or south Americans ) are not as advance and awesome as you guys think. they where easily beaten into submission by the Anglo influenced peoples ... ARGH dont turn it to some kind of ethnic soup...

 

maximius retorts:

The native americans were not beaten into submission by the Anglos, they were beaten into submission by microorganisms carried over by the Anglos for which native americans had no resistance. Many times the number of people died from disease as did from warfare. This is not to say the Anglos didnt kill anyone, they did that in droves, but the real conquerer of the New World was tuberculosis and cholera IIRC.

 

AND

 

The native americans , south and north, had very complex societies. The Incas were astronomers, the Mayans had extensive zoos and museums, the NorthWest indians in what is now N.California and Washington State had rather advanced political systems that were far more egaltarian than Western Europes. Not that these peoples were perfect or better, they were savage and cruel too, but hardly the degenerates you describe.

 

 

radley sez:

All we need is some guards some clergy (Catholics) some darn Satanists(tree loving wiccans) and the rest can go to hell. especially those fn land loving fairy believin Celtic Witta Wicca I hate the hole thing please don’t mess up and create some soupy ethnic loving thing

 

max: So all we need are some tree loving wiccans, but the fn land loving fairy believing Witta Wicca can go to hell? Arent they the same thing?

 

radley sez:

 

by the way thief never had much diversity... all the factions all of them derived from peoples nothern europian people not even a olive colored Spaniard not a chinaman or even a good old Welch-man

 

Incorrect. There were African, Asian, and Anglo features in the games, at least in T2. Not to mention women in positions of power.

 

radley :

Besides if you add these in they would be nothing but parodies (like blacks would be the spearchuckin people and Chinese would be the kimono wearing funny soundin noodle eaters) cant you c how offensive it would be to parody more than just one groupe of people… northern euros only please. Leave the rest alone…

 

max: The only parodies are in your head. We are talking about fleshing out the City with diverse, conflicting cultures, not sambo comedy routines.

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Ethnic soup = teh gud. Games need more grit, more depth, and some guard yelling racist abuse at people does that. As long as it's not one note 'bash the foreigners' - i.e. you could have the poor people from land y, and the rich merchants from y, who happen to be treated very differently. Or those from land x are inventors and supply parts to the Guild, but Zs are outcasts who get spat at.

 

All this gives the feeling of a world beyond the edges of the screen. Most games you play stop at that edge, but Thief has a tendency to not.

 

I'd like pagans to be similar, but not too similar, to TDP pagans. IMHO, the wolf-head idea isn't so hot, but the pagans - made darker and more twisted, instead of comedy sidekicks - were good. Looking celts is silly, though... That's not pagan, it's celtic. If I saw that "elite pagan" in game, I wouldn't think, "pagan," I'd think "celt." Sure, include celtic elements, like blue body-dye or whatever, but replace the checked clothing with something a little more original!

--

Somethin' fishy's goin' on here... Come on out, you taffer!

 

~The Fishy Taffer

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If I saw that "elite pagan" in game, I wouldn't think, "pagan," I'd think "celt."

 

And that's a problem because...?

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Looking celts is silly, though... That's not pagan, it's celtic. If I saw that "elite pagan" in game, I wouldn't think, "pagan," I'd think "celt." Sure, include celtic elements, like blue body-dye or whatever, but replace the checked clothing with something a little more original!

 

Erm, the celts were pagans. Why does T2s 'men in a dirty green towels' look more pagan than a bunch of people who were actually pagans?

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I agree with Fish Face for the most part, and although you say Celts were pagans--and they were--all a pagan really is is:

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.

2. One who has no religion.

3. A non-Christian.

4. A hedonist.

 

In short, it is such a broad concept that many many many groups of people were considered pagan. Springheel, it is obvious you already have an idea what the pagans would be, and although you have a say in the ultimate decision, in which we don't have any other then suggestions, I think all Fish Face and I wanted to imply was that we weren't so excited about the idea is all. We're just suggesting alternatives, and at least for Fish Face and I, when we consider what we would like the Pagans to be, we just don't see them as Celts, as you may well do. Should the Pagans be a warrior society? We haven't even begun to discuss their culture which would definitely be reflected in their appearance and customs. What is their agenda?

 

The Elite Pagan definitely looks like a Celt, yet, I think one of the few problems I have with it is that it just simply doesn't seem unique enough. Fish Face is right, I don't see pagan; I don't see something in the thief world; I just sort of associate it more with the Celts in this world then the Pagans in that.

 

I didn't like the way the Pagan's looked in Thief 2 either, but I do think they inspired a certain "spirit" about their culture that I liked a lot.

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As you say 'pagan' could refer to anything from the romans to the egyptians, but the celts had the closest thing to the T2 pagan religion. The Dark Mod could have gone any which way with this and a few people would still have been pissed off. No one was ever really that keen on the T2 and TDS pagans, because they looked stupid and talked funny. Making them somewhat more realistic is, I think, the right choice, and complements the real and gritty look the Dark Mod seems to be aiming for.

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We haven't even begun to discuss their culture which would definitely be reflected in their appearance and customs.

 

Who is "we"? The team has had plenty of discussions about all the various factions, including pagans. We have talked about several different tribes of pagans, including ones influenced by american indian and gypsy cultures. The main influence, however, is celtic/germanic/basque type tribesmen.

 

I don't see something in the thief world;

 

It's probably worth a reminder that this is NOT the thief world.

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But it's supposed to be similar?

 

The reason I don't want to think 'Celt' is because celt is our world. Whatever these guys are should not be something that's plainly based on our world. It'd be like dressing up the Hammerites in cassocks and dog-collars.

 

For a start, if this is NOT Thief, why are we going for celts. We've taken the name from Thief and used something based on that. Surely what should be happening is taking the role that the pagans in Thief took, and extrapolating sideways, as it were. In other words, inventing something new, that doesn't remind me I'm just playing a game, but that evokes similar feelings to the pagans from Thief. Well... If you think those pagans were crap, then perhaps not similar feelings, but hopefully you catch my drift.

 

I'm not trying to suggest anything specific for the pagans, but something so clearly based in reality doesn't ring true as part of a fantasy world.

--

Somethin' fishy's goin' on here... Come on out, you taffer!

 

~The Fishy Taffer

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The reason I don't want to think 'Celt' is because celt is our world. Whatever these guys are should not be something that's plainly based on our world.

 

Most things in thief are plainly based on our world. Does a victorian lamp-post break your immersion because it's based on a real world light?

 

that doesn't remind me I'm just playing a game,

 

That's exactly why we're making the setting grittier and more realistic.

 

Of course, you're not restricted to using our setting.

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What are pagans really? Barbarians or something?

May the Abyss rule!

 

Shadow of the Serpent Riders fan.

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What are pagans really? Barbarians or something?

 

Anyone who does not believe in the one god, be that Allah, God, ecetra, but worships many gods who represents different aspects of human life or nature. Examples of pagan gods would be the Egyptian god Anubis (who represents death), the Greek god Zeus (that one who likes throwing lightning), and the Celtic god Cernunnos (god of fertility, the horned one). Cernunnos is the one who appears in Thief I as 'The Trickster'. The pagans in Thief are based more on the Celtic religion than the Egyptians, Greeks or Romans. The Egyptians of the Thief world were the Precursors whose remains are found in the Lost City.

 

When the Christians came to convert the pagans they made the transition easier by sticking to some of their old gods and customs. Any picture of God looks like Zeus, the god of all gods (white flowing beard and so forth). Worship of Cernunnos by the Celts of Wales, Scotland and Ireland was discouraged by showing the image of the Christian Devil in the same shape as Cernunnos; with horns, hooves, and so forth. They also took over some pagan holidays, such as Christmas, renamed them and made them days of Christian worship instead.

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I'm curious, how long does it take to make a model for the game? Judging by the detailed Hammerite models (and believe me, I almost fell out of my chair when I saw them), it seems as if it would take a long time to make something like that. How many models are being planned for the toolset? Is making multiple Pagan tribes going to be a realistic endeavor or is it just conceptual?

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Thiat is the irony of Christianity et al - most of the traditions and practices of typical Christian religions like Catholocism are just old pagan traditons rebadged so it was easier to convert people... In fact, a great deal of what the Catholic church (for example) practices completely contradicts the original teachings of Jesus, who very clearly thought organised religion was a crock of shit. I find religion and the people that buy into it an endless source of amusement - people who are gullible enough to believe the word of some lunatic who claims to have received the word of God from on high during a schizophrenic delusional episode or while he was doped up on hallucinagenic herbs, or preposterous fairy tales told by some barbaric tribe of inbred desert nomads really ought to be quietly euthanised...

 

but I digress...

 

I really don't care what factions there are in TDM, they are just there to create a backstory and depth to the game, it doesn't matter if they are based on this sect or that cult or this tribe or whatever.

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I'm curious, how long does it take to make a model for the game? Judging by the detailed Hammerite models (and believe me, I almost fell out of my chair when I saw them), it seems as if it would take a long time to make something like that. How many models are being planned for the toolset? Is making multiple Pagan tribes going to be a realistic endeavor or is it just conceptual?

 

oDDity said 50 hours or something similar per model. He's a perfectionist. But that's oDDity standard models, I'm sure plenty of lesser quality models could be created within a fraction of that time.

 

Or, as I'm predicting, you'll all fall in love with the pagan models once you see them, and all thoughts of creating different tribes shalt be blown away like the leaves of a tree. :ph34r:

 

I find religion and the people that buy into it an endless source of amusement - people who are gullible enough to believe the word of some lunatic who claims to have received the word of God from on high during a schizophrenic delusional episode or while he was doped up on hallucinagenic herbs, or preposterous fairy tales told by some barbaric tribe of inbred desert nomads really ought to be quietly euthanised...

 

Quit sitting on the fence and tell us what you really think. :D

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I think that all i was saying is that pagans in thief 2 mostly stayed to themselves. where not tolerated in the city! right right! They are background they don’t interfere with the game play because the studio folks could see how silly the characters really are.

 

Pagan foe the most part are just used here and there as background story like a shadow you know it is there but you don’t look at it all day.

The pagans are cool from a distance but they will ruin when you look at them close up. fine get some models make some back story but if you put them in the light (no matte how crafty you are) you will end up with a hollow caricature or a parody of some real earthly race. They will not be as cool as you think.

 

Put them in the light and you see right through them. Let them sit long enough and they melt just like butter.

 

Heck even the Hamarites are clearly Catholics and Mechanist are clearly Lutherans but they are cool enough to put up with the parody or the caricature. Silly pagans are gay no they are very silly gay little stupid heads and I hate them argh.

 

Look guys really I hope you can pull it of but just for my two cents they should stay where they belong way out in the woods feeding the trees.

 

Looking for more grit and more realistic then get rid of all the magic and change the builders group to Catholic of medieval time. Try and get rid of any parody or caricature

 

Really guys I love this thing you are doing and hope you don’t take me too seriously I just hate those dammed pagans…and I hope you don’t end up with lots of time spent on creatures that end up hated by you and every other player out there (just think JAR JAR BINKS) I don’t think you can fix them!!!

 

Just be careful please !!!

Remember a wise man once said you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.( pagans=sows ear, your pagan type faction hopes=silk, get it !!!

Remember, “doing it” with one ugly girl can ruin a guy’s entire reputation.

 

Love as always

 

MedievalRadley

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