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Actually this IS a valid argument. Alcohol can be used to all kind of usefull purposes, it's only with the abuse that it starts to get bad.

 

Really? Which useful purposes are these, exactly. Don't give me the old chestnut about it helping prevent heart disease, it's only a very weak connection, and you'd do far better to eat a decent diet instead. The negative effects alhocol has on almost every part of the body, even in small doses, far outweighs any small benefit.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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For one thing it was used to render people uncunsiopus while doing surgery, in times where no better substitue was available. It can be used to desinfect(?) stuff before you start surgery. It can be used that people get a bit more daring and may do things that they wont do otherwise, which CAN be good under given circumstances, and apparently it can help to kill of germs. Which are only a few, I guess there may be more.


Gerhard

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There are a few, but usually when people start to drink, they don't think about that. You try alcohol - you want it more and more. When you try it, you can't control it much anymore... Like drugs and smoking. And, what is healthy about a mug of beer?

 

Speaking of drugs - grugs change chemical processes in your brain cells. In fact, forever. I don't see anything good in that. If you drink 10 cafeine tablets you'll have your brain bright as anything. And two hours later, you can barely think. If there is a good thing, there must be a bad one, that is how human organizm works. Everithing should be used in moderation. If you drink 10 gallons of water, you'll most probably die. If you eat a can of salt - same. If you won't eat any - again, you won't survive. Everything needs to be moderated. Only alcohol and drugs have very high influence. It is much easier to kill your organizm with alcohol then with water... In fact, water is not something you are dying to drink. But alcohol creates a dependance, not mentioning drugs.

 

In fact, what use is alcohol? Is it necessary to your organizm? No. But is it dangerous? Definately yes. Why drink it? To make yourself an idiot? Give yourself a headache next morning?

 

For one thing it was used to render people uncunsiopus while doing surgery, in times where no better substitue was available. It can be used to desinfect(?) stuff before you start surgery. It can be used that people get a bit more daring and may do things that they wont do otherwise, which CAN be good under given circumstances, and apparently it can help to kill of germs. Which are only a few, I guess there may be more.

 

May I ask. Is the alcohol you are talking about is beer, liquor, and vodka? In fact, you are talking about medicine alcohol. The sort of alcohol that is used in certain times in certain dozes. It is not alcohol people drink every day. What it has to do with anything?

Edited by Forsaken

Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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You try alcohol - you want it more and more. When you try it, you can't control it much anymore...

 

I don't. You have a choice and you know the consequences. If you step over the line it was because you ignored teh consequences. Actually I never really smoked. But I had a time where I hung out with some friends and I let myself be enticed to try a cigarette every now and then. This became more frequent over time until I reached a point where I actually asked for a cigarette on my own, because I wanted one. I immediately realized what that meant and stopped smoking immediately, because I did not want to go that road. If I would have continued at this day, I know that I would have become a smoker and very likely would fight not to detach from it.

 

Speaking of drugs - grugs change chemical processes in your brain cells. In fact, forever.

 

That is a weak argument. Even thinking does this all the time. :)

 

If you drink 10 gallons of water, you'll most probably die.

 

Not most probably, it's for sure. Though I don't know the exact amount that is required to kill yourself.

 

Only alcohol and drugs have very high influence.

 

This doesn't invalidate the use of them, it just means that a different amount is required. Paracelsus said it way back then: "The dosis is what make a chemical good or bad."

 

May I ask. Is the alcohol you are talking about is beer, liquor, and vodka?

 

Does it matter? No.

 

In fact, you are talking about medicine alcohol. The sort of alcohol that is used in certain times in certain dozes. It is not alcohol people drink every day. What it has to do with anything?

 

Alcohol is alcohol (for the purposes of this dicussion). It doesn't matter to refer to it as medicinal or not, because you can put any alcohol to medicinal uses. That was the point of my posting. :)


Gerhard

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For one thing it was used to render people uncunsiopus while doing surgery, in times where no better substitue was available. It can be used to desinfect(?) stuff before you start surgery. It can be used that people get a bit more daring and may do things that they wont do otherwise, which CAN be good under given circumstances, and apparently it can help to kill of germs. Which are only a few, I guess there may be more.

 

Lol, for fuck's sake, you're really scraping the barrel there aren't you - in fact some of those are underneath the barrel trying to scrape their way in...

Used to be used as an 'anesthetic' a few hundred years ago? Wow, that really justifies it's place in today's society.

There are far better disinfectants availabe than alcohol, and anyway, we're talking about alcohol as a drug, not as a cleaning agent.

Perhaps you can give me some examples of circumstances where it is better for people to have their judgement impaired to the point where they lose their inhibitions.

Alcohol has zero good purpose.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Thinking does not completely change anything. You won't start having halucinations because you always think about ghosts. And I'm not sure that anyone knows how exactly it happens. While commands\reactions of the brain like moving/seeing are fixed. Geroine and the rest of that rubbish alter the processes. Causing halucinations, physical instability dependance on a drug, and you really can't turn it back.

 

It matters what you are talking about. They asked oDDity about why he doesn't drink alcohol. THey asked why he doesn't drink it for pleasure or I don't know. They didn't ask why he doesn't drink alcohol to heal himself or something, because those are very different things. If I'm not mistaken, morpheus or something is a drug, yet used in medicine in critical situations. Does it means that it can be used at any time? I don't think so.

 

Reading what you wrote, you are saying - use beer to disenfect.

 

"The dozis..." - that means alcohol must be drunk in small numbers. WHy drink it at all then if such a small number doesn't make you brave yet?


Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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There are far better disinfectants availabe than alcohol, and anyway, we're talking about alcohol as a drug, not as a cleaning agent.

 

Alcohol is still used as a disinfectant in some circumstances. It is very cheap but also non-toxic, which makes it good for the sort of disinfectant you want in a first aid kit for cuts and scrapes, rather than the type you use to clean the bath. You can even use "drink" in an emergency, if you cut yourself and have only a bottle of brandy to hand.

 

[OT: strange that my post disappeared from the forum, even after it was quoted in a reply]

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Again, not regular alcohol drinking. Why drink alcohol regulary?


Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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Thinking does not completely change anything. You won't start having halucinations because you always think about ghosts.

 

What do you think that thinking is? Anytime you think about something it changes the configuration of your brain and the more you think about it, the more it is changed. And yes, this can cause even halluzinations. Or do you claim that all people, which have halluzinations, have them from excessive alcohol? There can be all kind of reasons why this starts and of course it also depends on your overall state wether thinking abuot something cause you halluzinations. My neighbour needed some medicals because when he didn't got them, he started all kind of halluzinations and became violent as a result. No difference to a drunk man there.

 

And concerning halluzinations - you are doing it all the time. Or do you think reality exists? :)

 

Any time you think how nice it would be if you would win the lottery or what you would do with a big amount of money, or what you would say if that nice guy over there would started to talk to you, you are halluzinating. Of course usually this are rather mild forms, and you are aware that you are actually halluzinating. Dreams are another form of halluzinations. :)

 

Does it means that it can be used at any time? I don't think so.

 

That's what I said. The circumstances as well as the dosis are what creates the problems, not the fact of using itself.

 

Reading what you wrote, you are saying - use beer to disenfect.

 

Well, if you don't have antisepts handy and you need it, what else will you use? You can use fire and alcohol.

 

"The dozis..." - that means alcohol must be drunk in small numbers. WHy drink it at all then if such a small number doesn't make you brave yet?

 

Apparently because people find it enjoyable. Why do you play computer games? For the same reason. Anything that is enjoyable can cause compulsive behaviour with all the associated side effects. That doesn't neccessarily mean that that the process itself is the bad part of it.


Gerhard

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Alcohol is still used as a disinfectant in some circumstances. It is very cheap but also non-toxic, which makes it good for the sort of disinfectant you want in a first aid kit for cuts and scrapes, rather than the type you use to clean the bath. You can even use "drink" in an emergency, if you cut yourself and have only a bottle of brandy to hand.

 

[OT: strange that my post disappeared from the forum, even after it was quoted in a reply]

 

Sorry about that. Oddity doubleposted and in the course of removing this, I seemed to have accidently removed the wrong posting. I noticed this, because the posting I wanted to delete was still there, but then I didn't know what went wrong and after deleting a posting I can't make it come back anyway.


Gerhard

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Alcohol is still used as a disinfectant in some circumstances. It is very cheap but also non-toxic, which makes it good for the sort of disinfectant you want in a first aid kit for cuts and scrapes, rather than the type you use to clean the bath. You can even use "drink" in an emergency, if you cut yourself and have only a bottle of brandy to hand.

 

[OT: strange that my post disappeared from the forum, even after it was quoted in a reply]

 

I've have nothing against alcohol being used as a disinfectant or cleaning agent, it's when people start to pour it into their mouths that the problems start.

I'm not in the habit of drinking disinfectant or cleaning fluids, including alcohol.

This has nothing to do with the subject of the deliberate consumption of alcohol as a mind-altering drug.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Reality is reality, a collection of information from eyes, ears, and other receptos. People become crazy because someone or something else influenced them. People don't be sane, then start thinking about something, and go crazy. They had a bad childhood, they were insulted physicaly and psycologicaly, they did drugs. Definately not thinking. I think about my own fantasy world every night, but I don't even dream about it. Halucination is something you see before you, not think up in your mind. Also, halucinastions are uncontrollable. Dreams are natural, even animals have them. I don't think alcohol can cause significant changes, but drugs sure do...

 

The circumstances can be very different and are random, so if you have a bottle of beer close to you when you need it, you are simply lucky. How much stuff do you have to carry to pull out of different circumstances?

 

Games don't influence your organizm. I can play a game 12 hours in a row but I'm OK. I don't have liver cirozis or halucinations or even eye damage... The bring a good thing, and the bad one they bring is almost 0.


Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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i think the most -wrong- thing about alcohol's effects on men is that it literally makes them develop womanly breasts. Hell i drink alcohol, extremely rarely though - i friggin hate beer etc, i only like irish cream and the like, which i only have on occasions. I also like a bit of vodka in coca cola.

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I don't really care if people use it rarely enough so not to drive cars while drunk. But I think you have to drink REALLY big numbers to develop breasts!


Too late to save us but try to understand

The seas were empty -- there was hunger in the land

We let the madmen write the golden rules

We were just Children of the Moon

We're lost in the middle of a hopeless world

Children, Children of the Moon watch the world go by

Children, Children of the Moon are hiding from the Sun and the Sky

 

© The Alan Parsons Project - Children of the Moon

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yeah lol. You have to be drinking for decades to develop titties. It's cos when you get drunk your body produces oestrogen - the female hormone. Which means that your -thing- grows smaller and your breasts grow larger. Not the same for women though, they in fact produce a huge amount of testosterone when drunk and get all horny (seriously!), dunno what it does to them in the long run.

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Reality is reality, a collection of information from eyes, ears, and other receptos.

 

OK. Tell me what reality is. Do colours exist? Does the universe exist? If yes, how do you know? Does a tree in the forrest make a noise when it crashes down, when nobody is around to hear it?

 

I do realize that it might be unfair to put this questions before you, because you are only fefteen, and you may not have learned much in the philosophical area. But it might get you interested to read some philosophers and learn whatour universe is made of and what our position in it is. Much better then dabbling into religion in my opinion.

 

People become crazy because someone or something else influenced them.

 

What about people who are mentaly ill from birth on? I'm not nitpicking, I just want to get you thinking beyond what you think you know. There are all kind of cases and you don't know all of them, so you should keep an open mind abuot things and be aware that you don't know everything.

 

People don't be sane, then start thinking about something, and go crazy.

 

How do you know that? As I said, there is not a single cause for anything. It usually is a pile of causes which happen to have an effect, and this combination may not work the same on everybody.

 

They had a bad childhood, they were insulted physicaly and psycologicaly, they did drugs.

 

Yeah, I know all these cliches, but they are not true. Of course some of them happen this way, but if these were the primary cases then we should expect much more cases in earlier time.

 

Halucination is something you see before you, not think up in your mind.

 

Well, when I read a good book, then I can see everything that I read like a movie before my eyes. In fact I can also recall these images just as I have seen it in a movie.

 

Also, halucinastions are uncontrollable.

 

It depends on the dosage. :) As I said, there are cases, ranging from mild forms to serious ones.

 

Dreams are natural, even animals have them. I don't think alcohol can cause significant changes, but drugs sure do...

 

Just because something is natural doesn't make it good. Consider digitalis. This is a poison that you can find in certain plants. If you eat enough of it you get killed, but applied in small dosis it is used in medicals for certain heart problems. Now what does this mean? Is digitialis bad or good?

 

Games don't influence your organizm.

 

Did you ever read the manual of your games? Why do you think that in most of them is a disclaimer for epileptics? If it doesn't influence YOUR orgnasim then why do you play? Because it does. :) If games can't influence your organism then why was somebody killed because he 'stole' a virtual item in World Of Warcraft? Apparently it influenced the owner of this item enough that he thought it a sufficient reason to kill somebody over it.

 

I can play a game 12 hours in a row but I'm OK. I don't have liver cirozis or halucinations or even eye damage... The bring a good thing, and the bad one they bring is almost 0.

 

For you. That doesn't mean that this is the case for everybody else. There are people who get divorced because of excessive playing, or loose all they have because they don't care anymore beyond anything except their gameworld. That's also reality and you can't discrad these facts just because you or I are not affected in such a way. In fact I had times when I was younger where I also started down such a road, but apparently my safety catch is good enough that it prevented me sacrificing everything.


Gerhard

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There are no ill effects to drinking about three pints every week as I do. It just puts your brain is 'social mode' for five hours a week. My four hour badminton session on Sunday with the same friends more than makes up for it, health wise. If you can't drink in moderation, fair enough, you're an alcoholic and should stay the hell away from the stuff. :)

 

Speaking of addiction, what about the internet? How long could you go without it? I'm sure it's pretty addictive, and has plenty of detremental effects. I could go a few months without a drink, but would struggle to go a few days without checking my e-mail or various forums to see what's going on.

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There are no ill effects to drinking about three pints every week as I do. It just puts your brain is 'social mode' for five hours a week. My four hour badminton session on Sunday with the same friends more than makes up for it, health wise. If you can't drink in moderation, fair enough, you're an alcoholic and should stay the hell away from the stuff. :)

 

 

Come on, you're not seriously suggesting you require a catalyst like alcohol in order to have fun.

It's a bad habit, a bad, socially engrained, traditional mass habit.

Speaking of addiction, what about the internet? How long could you go without it? I'm sure it's pretty addictive, and has plenty of detremental effects. I could go a few months without a drink, but would struggle to go a few days without checking my e-mail or various forums to see what's going on.

What detrimental effects does te internet have exactly? It's an unparalled encyclopedia of knowledge. It's certainly better than watching TV or movies, and it's no worse than reading books. I went without internet for about 2 months last year while I was staying in a remote part of Ireland.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Go to your Doctor's and say to them that you will not drink any more alcohol. If he's not a quack, he should say 'great'.

 

Next some people are going to start listing the benefits of smoking tobacco...


Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!

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I think macsen brings up a good point though. The point being that people use alchohol as a way to have fun. I have had alchohol before and in many ways things do seem more fun/funny, however I also realize that their are much better ways of getting these same effects. But this brings me to another question. There was a drug (I can't think of the name now) that scientist were testing and found that it had no real negative effects besides being a stimulant+hallucinigen (similar to shrooms). If people used something with no negative effects then is it ok?(directed at Oddity+forsaken)

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Wow, and I thought Americans were the puritannical ones.

 

A glass or two of alcohol a day is no more or less dangerous than a cup or two of coffee, or sitting in front of a computer for several hours.

 

And like several other kinds of legal ingestable substances, like chocolate or caffeine, it can actually have a mood-enhancing effect.

 

Saying that a few drinks of wine or beer is going to turn you into an alcoholic demonstrates the same level of intelligence as claiming that playing Grand Theft Auto is going to turn you into a cop-killing maniac.

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it gives people the courage to do what they are afraid to do while sober

Yes, that has always bothered me. The first thing that comes to mind is when people talk about getting drunk and then laid. Like they must go together. Why is that? Is the person too shy? Embarrassed by their body? Unable to get in another person's pants without it? Secretly homosexual and needs to fight back revulsion with liquor? Perhaps Mr. Suave can't get it up without knockin' a few back first. :laugh: Or Ms. Loose can't shake her feelings of guilt about sex, without being properly 'lubricated,' if you get my drift. Seriously though, why on earth would a person want to be intoxicated during sex? Don't say the "enhancement" thing, please - a depressed mind doesn't enhance anything (and certainly not the performance!). If anything, you should want the opposite, to be in a completely mindful state, aware and remembering and breathing in every moment. I personally choose to be mindful as much as I can.

 

Yes, I'm one who doesn't imbibe alcohol. Perhaps a bit too stringent, I admit, but with my life experience on the subject, most would probably be the same way. I'd like to sit back and say "let individuals drink if they choose to", but I can't completely ascribe to that, because when you drink you do not just affect yourself. You affect everyone.

 

Family,

Friends,

Friends of friends,

Innocent drivers,

The young,

The economy,

Popular culture,

The health care system,

etc...

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Wow, and I thought Americans were the puritannical ones.

 

A glass or two of alcohol a day is no more or less dangerous than a cup or two of coffee, or sitting in front of a computer for several hours.

 

And like several other kinds of legal ingestable substances, like chocolate or caffeine, it can actually have a mood-enhancing effect.

 

Saying that a few drinks of wine or beer is going to turn you into an alcoholic demonstrates the same level of intelligence as claiming that playing Grand Theft Auto is going to turn you into a cop-killing maniac.

No one was even inferring that everyone who drinks becomes an alcoholic. Two glasses a day is way too much. That would be 14 glasses a week.

 

What I was pointing out, is that people who drink alcohol, or take any other drug, are weak-minded and inferior to people who don't. That's not my opinon, but a fact.

There is no case to argue for alcohol being legal and other drugs being illegal. Herione or cocaine taken in moderation have no worse effects than alcohol, so why do poeple get long prison sentences for selling those, while people can openly sell alcohol?

Whatever case is argued against herine and cocaine can equally be applied to alcohol, the only reason it's still legal is becasue it's been so engrained in society for so long.

The positives have to be balanced against the negatives, and alcohol has none but the most trivial of positives, while it has many serious negatives.


Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Actually this IS a valid argument. Alcohol can be used to all kind of usefull purposes, it's only with the abuse that it starts to get bad.

 

 

Theres strong evidence that points to the healthy benefits of drinking a small glass of wine or beer. Red wine is filled with anti-oxidents, small amounts of alcohol can lower blood pressure and relieve stress. Of course, there are other ways to do these things but there is the pleasant buzz and the lowering of social inhibitions that can be fun as well. Alcohol is not a demon and to try to hang too much blame on its head is being kind of reductionist.

 

Forsaken, Im sorry your neighbor died of alcohol but that still doesnt mean it cant be enjoyed carefully and responsibly. I would not recommend that YOU drink and its good you have a healthy fear of it. I enjoy having a good pilsner or a glass of wine once in a while but its in the moderation that the real enjoyment comes out. Ive spent too many nights "Linoleum Surfing" during my sodden undergraduate years but Ive wised up to alcohols real values.

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