Rope Arrows And Stairows

[Springheel]

Killing is always supposed to be a last resort for a thief

 

It's interesting that people always say this, yet in the opening movies for both T1 and T2 (which arguably defined what 'thief' behaviour actually is) Garrett is shown killing unsuspecting guards with an arrow.

 

(Oh no, now I've done it....)

[sparhawk]

I think such animations are designed to raise the interest, and of course a movie has to follow a certain pattern to achieve this. Showing the prefered way of playing Thief would mean a trailer full of standing around gaping at the guards. Considering that on the higher difficulty levels, thus relating to how a good thief behavesm it is usually forbidden to kill, I'd say that is what LGS meant how it should be played. Killing is easy, sneaking is not.

[Crispy]

Not killing is better, sure. But having the freedom to kill (in the game, I mean!) is a good thing, at least on lower difficulty levels.

[Gildoran]

I generally think it should be a complete pain to kill people, but if somebody can do it despite all the consequences (screams, bloodstains, whatever), then let them.

 

As for removing moss, I think it would be better to just frob it.

[Nyarlathotep]

I generally think it should be a complete pain to kill people, but if somebody can do it despite all the consequences (screams, bloodstains, whatever), then let them.

Exactly. Make it as unsettling as possible, but try to make as many aspects of killing also have direct gameplay ramifications, e.g., screams alerting other guards, bloodstains hard to clean, decapitating (for example) enemies might make them bleed out (huge bloodstains and even continue to bleed after being picked up), et al. Another possibility is to allow the player to incapacitate guards through severe wounding. Treat them like bodies--picking them up, dragging them and so forth--but have them writhe around on the floor, moaning. If another guard encounters them, they can rely information on their assailant--worse even than killing them outright. Outside of sneak attacks, most attacks shouldn't do too much damage. Unless the player makes a really powerful strike (or lands it on a non-vital area, such as the gut) when the guard is near death, it should instead incapacitate them. As they lay bleeding there, they are almost certain to die, but only slowly (say, up to ten minutes). Make the player have to finish them if they want to silence them, and have guards beg--some for mercy, some for death.

 

The goal here is to make killing guards as sick and twisted as possible, and make them feel more real. In some regards, we actually should be trying to break down the player's psyche; make killing just as sick and twisted as it is in the real world. Making your victims panic at death's door is a great way of doing that. That said, stealth kills should be rewarded by reducing--and in some cases, eliminating--the negative effects of killing. Broadheads should make for minimal bleeding (small blood pool); moss arrows don't cause bleeding and keep them from screaming (however, they should thrash around); backstabs should have reduced bleeding (medium blood pool) and reduced noise (punctured lung); etc.

 

As for removing moss, I think it would be better to just frob it.

Good idea, but I think it might have to be somewhat time-intensive to keep from becoming too simple. Using Thief I/II's moss arrows as an example, imagine having to pick up each individual scrap of moss left behind, rather than a single frob for the whole thing.

[Crispy]

OK, but only if you're volunteering to write the blood-and-gore-slashfest functionality yourself.

 

Good idea, but I think it might have to be somewhat time-intensive to keep from becoming too simple. Using Thief I/II's moss arrows as an example, imagine having to pick up each individual scrap of moss left behind, rather than a single frob for the whole thing.

That's still pretty easy to do quickly. Just spam right-clicks around the general area of the moss. Unless you're talking about having hundreds of tiny shards of moss to pick up, which is total overkill and would suck for performance.

[Domarius]

I agree with Spar - the intro movie is overly "dramatic", for cinematic purposes

 

Though in TDS, they acknowledge the real playing style in the intro - he knocks out the first guy you see, this time.

They were TRYING to do some things right in that game.

[Maximius]

Well, the question we...and everyone out there need to ask themselves is....how hard does it need to be before the game becomes too frustrating to even be considered somewhat fun?

 

 

You are quite right, NH, I was just throwing some ideas out there for consideration. I tend to exaggerate a bit too, I don't want the killing to be impossible but it should be laden with difficulty and consequences. Just like bringing up the topic of killing AIs in this forum is laden with consequences.....

[sparhawk]

You mean, bringing up the topic of killing AI has "Unforseen Consequences"?

[Maximius]

You mean, bringing up the topic of killing AI has "Unforseen Consequences"?

 

Da-dum....TNNNG!

 

Thank you, don't forget to tip yur servers!

[Maximius]

Nyarlathotep: Ninja edit : No, almost none of this stuff would be worthwhile implementing into the first release. It's my honest hope that TDM eventually outgrows its Thief roots and expands into new areas (such as new playstyles offered by characters other than nameless, mute clones of Garrett).

 

 

I do not wish to see TDM outgrow its Thief roots myself, I would like to see TDM take Thief where it could not go. The Precursor games were really ground breaking for me, as for others, and frankly I have yet to see a game match its incredible mix of original gameplay, storylines, and incredible atmosphere. I'm not really a fan of the idea off expanding the character set too much, until you discover you are playing a D and D FPS.

 

That being said, I certainly won't NOT play new mods of the Mod, I just won't characterize them as being of the Royal Lineage. But I do think that the Mod needs a dragon or two. Or perhaps the Belcher version of a dragon...

[Nyarlathotep]

OK, but only if you're volunteering to write the blood-and-gore-slashfest functionality yourself.

I'd love to, actually! However, I think I ought to prove myself with something slightly less involved, and secondly, it should definitely wait until after first release. As long as people are willing to make or modify the necessary textures, animations, voices and so forth, I'd love to hack it all out!

 

One point though, I don't think slasher is what we should strive for. I picked Clive Barker's Undying as example of the style of violence I'd like to see for a reason. The goal is not to disgust the player, but to work at his fears, his conscience, his psyche. The idea is to convey the pain and suffering of the npcs; I think we can all agree that gore by and large works at cross-purposes to that.

 

That's still pretty easy to do quickly. Just spam right-clicks around the general area of the moss. Unless you're talking about having hundreds of tiny shards of moss to pick up, which is total overkill and would suck for performance.

No, the point is just to keep it from being trivialized by the player; it doesn't have to be a complete pain in the ass. Making the player expend another arrow to avoid detection is a great way to do that. A single click can seem completely trivial, but five or six might not. It's really just a question of balance.

 

Nyarlathotep: Ninja edit : No, almost none of this stuff would be worthwhile implementing into the first release. It's my honest hope that TDM eventually outgrows its Thief roots and expands into new areas (such as new playstyles offered by characters other than nameless, mute clones of Garrett).

I do not wish to see TDM outgrow its Thief roots myself, I would like to see TDM take Thief where it could not go. The Precursor games were really ground breaking for me, as for others, and frankly I have yet to see a game match its incredible mix of original gameplay, storylines, and incredible atmosphere. I'm not really a fan of the idea off expanding the character set too much, until you discover you are playing a D and D FPS.

 

That being said, I certainly won't NOT play new mods of the Mod, I just won't characterize them as being of the Royal Lineage. But I do think that the Mod needs a dragon or two. Or perhaps the Belcher version of a dragon...

That's pretty much what I was trying to get at, minus the dragon. The atmosphere and story need little adjustment--they're already great, and will only continue to grow. However, gameplay has significant room to expand and grow, and I'd hate to see TDM get hitched up on tired gameplay paradigms simply out of a refusal to try something new.

[Ishtvan]

However, gameplay has significant room to expand and grow, and I'd hate to see TDM get hitched up on tired gameplay paradigms simply out of a refusal to try something new.

I think it's safe to say we'd all hate to see that. That's why we typically discuss all sorts of options for a feature, and "because it wasn't in Thief" is never good enough reason to leave something out. Sometimes we end up finding out through trial and error that there were actually good reasons for doing something a particular way though.

[Louis-the-XIV]

Have you guys ever thought about using acid arrows, that could potentially eat up the vine arrows that you wish to make disappear. Also you can use the acid arrows to harm guards or blind them. Acid arrows could also be used for a host of other functions that I'm sure I have not thought of. Maybe you could use them to eat through thin metal walls or floors or ceilings that lead to secret areas or secret shortcuts. Or to melt certain locks? i dunno... maybe its alittle to far fetched. Anyhow nice to meet all of you. The MOD looks beautiful.

[Mr Retarded]

Far fetched? We're dealing with a world where arrows can spawn vines and mass amounts of moss. I think acid is about as believable as the water.

 

Personally, I think it's quite a good idea.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Mr Retarded

[Springheel]

We won't be adding any new arrows like that. FM authors could if they wanted, however.

 

Our general opinion is that the Thief already has a pretty good arsenal of tools, and adding new ones tends to either result in feature creep, or overlaps tools that already exist. Of course, there might be specific tools that are useful for specific missions, but FM authors can add those on a case-by-case basis.

[Nyarlathotep]

Overlapping isn't all that bad when it's intentional. If you're limited on the number and types of arrows, having a much larger arsenal than what you're allowed gives the player tactical choices to make. Do I have enough room for the fancy lockpicking kit (versus a very basic one) and fire arrows, or should I just go for acid arrows and hope I have enough? Which are more appropriate to the mission and my play style, ice arrows or water arrows (when both come with complementary disadvantages)? Are rope arrows and vine arrows enough, or do I need climbing gloves and a grappling hook? Vast arsenals give the world a more "lived-in" feel, as there are a variety of weapons and tools to suit different purposes, and several to suit the same purpose (if in different ways).

 

Obviously, bigger arsenals work better when you have more time to devote to them, and TDM already has a very nice spread. Still, it might be fun later on to expand the arsenal significantly.