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I Hate Song Of Ice And Fire!


Komag

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I've had enough of this series.

 

- All the best people get killed. Screw you George RRRRRR Martin

- The language is overly crude

- Horrible things happen all the time

- What's to like?

 

I definitely gave it a good try. I read up to about 2/3 through book 3, and long books they are. I'm finished. I'll never read the rest, nor watch the stupid HBO series when it comes out.

 

/pissed off rant

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AAAHHHH!!! Well, Cornwell is much better, but if you don't like the brutality, then you wont appreciate Cornwell as well. :)

 

I agree, I was quite shocked when that one character died (don't want to spoil it for others), because I thought he would be the main hero. On the other hand, when reading it, I got the impression that the author somehow got carried away, and the death served to get the book back on track. I don't know wether it was planned from the start, or wether I'm right, but as the book is setup it would be quite missleading. Still I prefer such an approach to some Deus-Ex-Machina like I have seen in other books, which really pisses me off, or some ever dragging on like in WoT after book seven.

I found the depiction quite realistic for that time, and the characters feel mostly believable. I don't particular enjoy extreme violence, but if it is embedded in a story like this, where it serves to make the characters more realistic, then it's ok for me. I never felt that the protagonists acted out of character.

Gerhard

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Given that you're some sort of religious moron (mormon?) or something, it's to be expected that you wouldn't like cuss words or bad stuff.

I'd suggest maybe Peter Pan, or The Wind in the Willows for someone of your delicate sensibilities, or just generally the sort of fluffy tales where nothing too nasty happens, or even if someone does lose their pet rabbit, it's soon found again and they all go home for tea and cakes.

 

I find the idea of the unambiguous mortality of characters quite refreshing in these books. In such a brutal world, anyone could and should die at any time without the slightest warning, rather than the usual heroic fare, where the main players move from one close scrape with death to the next in an ever increasing spiral of incredulous good fortune.

As for the language and horrible acts, they're actually only watered down versions of how brutal and horrible and frightening such a medieval world really was to live in.

 

What's to like?

Well, I like the completely unsentimental and stark depiction of the world, just as much as you hate it. I like the ambiguous nature of almost all the characters, I like the story, and I like Martin's character dialogue. Even when nothing much is happening, the dialogue is interesting to read.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Heh, maybe I should give it a go. One of the things I hate about following a story is when nothing happens. The best parts of WoT (which, despite liking it, even I won't deny it drags on and on) is when shit is happening. Deaths, battles, wave after wave of attacker's heads exploding from asha'man attacks, etc. In fact, it's kinda stupid to be all the way up to book 9 (I think that's what I was on when I left off some two years ago...) and almost everyone's still alive. Even now, with 24 (Fox series) - the best part was when the nuke went off, and I was actually disappointed when this week's nuke didn't. What's the point in watching if nothing's going to happen? If I want to watch nothing happen, I could just skip the show entirely. :laugh:

 

Pointless rants: What's with all these damn RR names? And what's with the "Blank of Blank and Blank" format? Where did that start? Supermarket of Carrots and Cheese.

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You should give it a go, it's a great series.

If you liked formulaic, averagely written, meandering, arbitrary crap like WoT, you surely haven't got a very high literary standard anyway.

I only like stuff that's good, so if I say it's good, you can believe it.

Of course, if you're a big sissy like komag, it might not be suitable for that reason alone, there's a lot of disturbing nastiness in it, it's not your typical fantasy swords and sorcery crap, it's a stark medieval world depicted without romanticising it in any way...that's where komag failed, he's used to the sentimental portrayal of the past in entertainment, and thinks it was quaint, he doesn't think that they did actually drag 9 year old girls out of bed and burn them alive for being a witch, or hang kids of the same age for theft, or that the king or his lords were above the law and could rape whoever they wished with impunity.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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I find the idea of the unambiguous mortality of characters quite refreshing in these books. In such a brutal world, anyone could and should die at any time without the slightest warning, rather than the usual heroic fare, where the main players move from one close scrape with death to the next in an ever increasing spiral of incredulous good fortune.

 

On the other hand, a hero becomes a hero because he is the one who survived, where others died. If the hero dies, it's no hero and we wouldn't hear from him. ;)

Gerhard

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Oddity you seem to have taken especial offense at my not liking your favourite books, enough to rudely insult me left and right.

 

I know full well about the awful atrocities that have occured regularly throughout all human history, and I'm grateful we live in a day and age where much of the world has moved past the horrible barbarisms of the past.

 

I do believe it's important to learn and know of the evil in men's hearts, that we may better guard against it in our society, but that doesn't mean I have to enjoy reading about such things for FUN. Real drama doesn't have to include graphic depictions of grotesque acts, and an enlightened people shouldn't seek after such things.

 

I agree with you about liking the story and dialog though, it's masterful, and it's the reason I read so far along as I did. I especially like Tyrion's chapters, he's my favourite character of the books. Sam too.

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I didn't take offence, it was your reasons that annoyed me.

Nothing to do with the quality of the writing, just the fact it's too realistic a depiction of the subject matter.

That's a pretty odd complaint to have.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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On the other hand, a hero becomes a hero because he is the one who survived, where others died. If the hero dies, it's no hero and we wouldn't hear from him. ;)

 

Of course. The fact is that you shouldn't try to predict who the hero or surviving characters will be. IF you do that, then you'll be annoyed when they are killed off before the end.

It's your own fault.

Let the story happen and see who's left at the end and what part they've played;

I think it's already pretty obvious who the main hero will be until the end, and he's been around since the start of the first book,

Jon Snow

, but with GRRM you never know, he could get whacked in the next book.

I like that kind of uncertainty.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Hehe, I like SoIaF exactly for the reasons komag lists in his first post. The fact alone that nobody is certain to get away alive helps a lot. Knowing a main character will survive anything takes away a lot of tension.

 

To be honest though, the books get more and more lengths with each volume. Feast for Crows in particular has very boring passages, but I have hopes for Dance with Dragons to be a lot better - Feast was just a big, overblown Meanwhile... chapter.

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... he doesn't think that they did actually drag 9 year old girls out of bed and burn them alive for being a witch, or hang kids of the same age for theft, or that the king or his lords were above the law and could rape whoever they wished with impunity.

 

I think one of the differences in our culture is, that in those days a 14 year old was already considered a ripe woman, and at the age of 18 she was already old and strange if not married.

Gerhard

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I know full well about the awful atrocities that have occured regularly throughout all human history, and I'm grateful we live in a day and age where much of the world has moved past the horrible barbarisms of the past.

 

Did it? Well, I guess we have a better veil put on it, but the barbarism is still there.

Gerhard

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Of course. The fact is that you shouldn't try to predict who the hero or surviving characters will be. IF you do that, then you'll be annoyed when they are killed off before the end.

 

Even in real life you get to like some people and others not. So this is not really difference. In books and stories you are usually led by the teller, so it's not really surprising, if a character is depicted in such a way that you get to like him, that you start to consider him to be the main hero. Especially if you read a lot of him. On the other hand, I also started to like some other characters too, like this dog servant warrior (forgot his name at the moment). It's quite good that the characters are described from many different angles, so they are not really black and white, as in many other stories.

 

I think it's already pretty obvious who the main hero will be until the end, and he's been around since the start of the first book,

Jon Snow

, but with GRRM you never know, he could get whacked in the next book.

 

Yes, it's more obvious now. But in the beginning, it was not as obvious, though there was a tendency to that. It was not that clearcut though. But I should have thought it from the way how easy it was for his brother, to realize that something is coming. :)

Gerhard

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To be honest though, the books get more and more lengths with each volume. Feast for Crows in particular has very boring passages, but I have hopes for Dance with Dragons to be a lot better - Feast was just a big, overblown Meanwhile... chapter.

 

I thought the plottwist with that dragon queen was especially boring in the beginning. He could have left it out completely, especially since there were already enough characters to choose from. I hope he doesn't suffer a similar problem like WoT, where more and more characters are coming in, and the individual threads are not tied up. That's why I was quite "happy" about some of the deaths, because I had the impression, this happened mostly to avoid such a fate. :)

Gerhard

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Well, the dragon queen is going to be a major part in the final 2 books.

He has set up the entire plot outline from the start, he's not just making it up as he goes along.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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Yeah, I know. It became much more interesting when she finally aquired her army. Everything before that I didn't like so much. Well, it's definitely good if he plannes everything beforehand, as it should be done. :) And I'm looking forward to the next installment. I hope to read a lot about that Imp, because he is definitely my favourite character (and the hound).

 

Did you already start on the Danish wars?

Gerhard

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On the other hand, I also started to like some other characters too, like this dog servant warrior (forgot his name at the moment). It's quite good that the characters are described from many different angles, so they are not really black and white, as in many other stories.

Are you referring to Sandor Clegane? One of the many characters who have depth and their role not transparent from introduction.

Loose BOWELS are the first sign of THE CHOLERA MORBUS!
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Yeah, I know. It became much more interesting when she finally aquired her army. Everything before that I didn't like so much. Well, it's definitely good if he plannes everything beforehand, as it should be done. :) And I'm looking forward to the next installment. I hope to read a lot about that Imp, because he is definitely my favourite character (and the hound).

 

Did you already start on the Danish wars?

 

Not yet, but you can read the first chapter of Dance with Dragons, which is a Tyrion chapter, on GRRM's website.

http://www.georgerrmartin.com/if-sample.html

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

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