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Recreating Dark Project?


TheDorkProject

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I know this may be a little bit of a dangerous topic given legal issues, or maybe it's just a topic you're all sick of hearing about because a billion other noobs have brought it up before me...

 

but how feasible, probable would it be for someone to convert the original games into dark mod (even if the level geometry and architecture haven't been improved at all, it'd still have the immense advantage of being reliably playable in modern versions of windows on modern PCs, and having way better lighting, etc etc...)

 

I'd love to play through those games again in a more up to date engine, even if yes, a lot of their charm was their dated technology, it'd still be great.

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Short answer: No. Sorry.

 

Long answer: To start with, legally it's not doable. So we certainly won't be doing it, nor would we condone any effort to do so. :)

 

As a thought experiment, if one were to consider the technical feasibility, perhaps for the entirely legal (I think - unless the Thief EULA prohibits this, I haven't checked) purpose of converting Fan Missions with the author's permission... it would be difficult. Dromed uses primarily subtractive geometry (carving space out of a solid world), with a little additive geometry here and there. Doom 3 only uses additive geometry (adding solid walls, floors, and ceilings to an empty space). Converting from one to the other should certainly be possible, but wouldn't be trivial.

 

The geometry would only be part of it, of course. There's also textures, models, items, etc,; none of which can be easily copied from Thief, even if it was legal to do so. So you'd need a translation table to replace assets from one toolset with rough equivalents from another.

 

Then there's more complicated things, like scripts, and the endless chains of triggers and stims that people set up in Dromed to serve the same purpose as scripts. TDM does this quite differently. This would be really hard to convert automatically. So hard that you wouldn't do it, you'd just tell people to redo their scripting.

 

Finally, some features are just different. Dark Mod mantling doesn't have precisely the same parameters as Thief mantling, for example; it tends to be more flexible. So a map that worked great in Thief might be broken in TDM, for the fault of neither.

 

So to sum up: If someone was incredibly persistent and dedicated and intelligent, then maybe it could be done. But in the time it would take to do it, you might as well just rebuild the whole mission from scratch and make it better than the original. :)

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Kinda what I figured...

 

Unfortunate, isn't it?

 

Not especially, the Dark Mod needs to stands on its own merits I can think of nothing that would underwhelm people more than buggy, ugly conversions of maps they have already beaten. It is not impossible to make the Thief games run on modern PCs so why not just play the original again if that's what you want? Personally I am looking forward to a new generation of stealth based single-player thievery and to see what people can do with the extra facilities of the doom 3 engine and the hard work of the Dark Mod team.

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Not especially, the Dark Mod needs to stands on its own merits I can think of nothing that would underwhelm people more than buggy, ugly conversions of maps they have already beaten. It is not impossible to make the Thief games run on modern PCs so why not just play the original again if that's what you want? Personally I am looking forward to a new generation of stealth based single-player thievery and to see what people can do with the extra facilities of the doom 3 engine and the hard work of the Dark Mod team.

 

The two desires are not mutually exclusive.

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Better to invest your time and energy in creating something new.

 

What I've always wanted to see though is actually the opposite of updating - Thief DS missions on the Thief II engine. There's a decent game in there somewhere and I want to play it without sluggish controls, loading points, etc. :wub:

 

Send a PM if you're interested. ;)

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Kinda what I figured...

 

Unfortunate, isn't it?

 

Hardly unfortunate. The original games are still there, and the 'opendarkengine' project aims to allow for a much more faithful way to play the old games on an updated engine. They have a lot of work to do in terms of reverse engineering the original engine, but it should be possible with enough time dedicated to it.

 

TDM, while striving to be as Thieflike as possible, simply isn't the original engine. You could re-create the geometry of the original games, and while it would be similar, it would play differently due to our AI enhancements, doom 3 physics improvements over the dark engine, and slightly different tools..etc.

 

As has been said before, create something new...we've all played the originals many times over.

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Actually, you can get the best of both worlds. Yes, TDM is new and different, so making the old levels in TDM would give you a nice old feeling, while still playing somewhat differently at the same time.

It wouldn't be much more work for a FM designer to make an old Thief level than to make a new one.

I think we all know how popular the old ones would be, everyone would want to play them.

I think the best way would be to use the old levels as strong inspiration rather than copying them outright though. Maybe use the map layout but change the objectives and guards etc, or go the other wya and use the story, objectives and setup of an old OM but make a new map layout to play it on.

There are no legal problems to worry about when it comes to individual mappers, it's at their own risk.

Civillisation will not attain perfection until the last stone, from the last church, falls on the last priest.

- Emil Zola

 

character models site

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but how feasible, probable would it be for someone to convert the original games into dark mod (even if the level geometry and architecture haven't been improved at all, it'd still have the immense advantage of being reliably playable in modern versions of windows on modern PCs, and having way better lighting, etc etc...)

 

Technically it can work for the geometry. Subtractive or not doesn't matter. The points have to be rendered in the end, so vertices are sent to the gfx card, no matter how you do it. So you would have to write a converter for that. It would certainly work, but it would be a waste of time. The project itself would be non-trivial, and in the end you still have old level geometry.

 

As for the probabillity. I would think it's rather unlikely. First of all, most poeple want to do something new. Not slavishly following trodden paths. Copying a full mission by recreating it bit by bit in another engine is boring and tiresome stuff, so I don't think it is very likely that such a project would even find it's end.

 

Of course that still leaves the question of legallity, but since this is just a theoretical question it doesn't matter at this point.

Gerhard

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There are no legal problems to worry about when it comes to individual mappers, it's at their own risk.

 

Yes, if they want to make and distribute it themselves, that's their business. We won't be able to host or distribute the mission, however.

 

What would be much more interesting, and legal, would be to make 'spiritual successors' to the old missions. Similar in appearance and atmosphere, but not using any Eidos IP. We already have a "bonehoard" type mission under development.

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Yes, if they want to make and distribute it themselves, that's their business. We won't be able to host or distribute the mission, however.

 

What would be much more interesting, and legal, would be to make 'spiritual successors' to the old missions. Similar in appearance and atmosphere, but not using any Eidos IP. We already have a "bonehoard" type mission under development.

 

i agree :rolleyes:

Edited by metabaron
_.-MiChAeL-._
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I'm looking forward to experiencing TDM in lots of ways, it's sort of like both feeding your kids AND teaching them that the Earth isn't flat. There is time enough for both things...

 

I'm not saying "How about everyone just focuses on converting the original games into this engine and nothing else at all, ever!" I was just musing and wondering about the technical feasibility of it. Just saying I think it'd be kind of fun to see what some of those old locations would look like with real per pixel lighting. Then again, that lighting is something that would probably need to be actively shown off by staged situations like Doom 3 did a lot of with machines that cast light and moved, for you to even notice.

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I know of at least one mission that has similar areas to some Thief OMs (other than that bonehoard one), but it's different too and more like "inspired by" than just a remake.

 

(And maybe metabaron didn't realize it's rolleyes but he thought it was just looking up, to agree with the above post)

 

I have no idea what feeding your kids and teaching them the earth isn't flat means. Are you saying you nurture them with love and also teach technical facts? I can't figure how that's like TDM

shadowdark50.gif keep50.gif
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I think he just means that we can have it both ways. :) Not that I'd encourage exact recreations of Thief OMs in TDM (inspired-by missions notwithstanding).

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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I can never tell if people use the rolling eyes emoticon to roll their eyes in sympathetic derision or with sarcastic intent. :wacko:

 

..oh no! it wasn`t my intention to bring up a discussion ! :unsure:

neither it was meant as derision nore there were any sarcastic intent ! :unsure:

 

i only just took the wrong emoticon. :unsure:

 

in layman`terms: i sympathize with "springheels" views !

 

thats all,folks!

 

sorry for any confusion :wacko: !

 

and now we can go back to business and talk/write about, whats really important in here.

 

"THE DARK MOD" :-)

Edited by metabaron
_.-MiChAeL-._
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