Lightgem --for The Last Time?

[Springheel]

a)The easiest, quickest and best looking solution would be to have a separate gem and compass like T2. The gem and/or compass can be removed from the HUD by the player (they are both completely unecessary gimmicks after all)

 

The second preferable is to have a gem in a compass housing which doesn't tilt up and down - tis could still be prerendered with bitmaps.

 

c) The real pain in the ass and complete waste of time and resources would be to have the gem in a 3d compass housing which tilting along with the player.

 

Ok, we need to get this cleared up once and for all. I agree with what oDDity has said above. As I see it, we have basically two issues here.

 

1. Should the compass tilt.

 

2. Should the compass be combined with the lightgem on the HUD like T3, or should it be an inventory object like T1/2.

 

We seem to have about four people against tilting and three or four in favour of it, with at least three people who would like the compass to be an inventory object.

 

I personally don't like the tilting on the main HUD, though if we made the compass an inventory object, then I wouldn't care whether it tilted like T1/2.

 

So how do we decide this? It's a bit of a mess at the moment, and voting for Oofnish's lightgem doesn't solve any of these problems...in fact it becomes pointless until we get this sorted out.

 

I think we've pretty much heard all the arguments for and against, so unless anyone has a totally new idea, here's what I suggest:

 

We vote first of all on the tilting issue. Then, once we get that out of the way, we can vote on whether or not to keep the lightgem separate or not. Then, we never ever visit the subject again.

[oDDity]

ROFL, this is the most unweldy looking poll I've ever seen. Those poor dimwits in Florida wouldnt have had a chance if their voting cards had looked anything like this.

2. and 6. are exactly tha same option written backwards, as are 3 and 5.

Edited December 31, 2004 by oDDity

[BlackThief]

ROFL, this is the most unweldy looking poll I've ever seen. Those poor dimwits in Florida wouldnt have had a chance if their voting cards had looked anything like this.

2. and 6. are exactly tha same option written backwards, as are 3 and 5.

yeah you're right. anyway I voted for 2.

 

edit: I actually I'm missing one option.

 

Make the gem and the compass seperate objects. But the compass doesn't tilt in the inventory.

Edited December 31, 2004 by BlackThief

[sparhawk]

The lightgem has to be a seperate object. Period. This is not a question of voting because it is a technical issue. Therefore I will not vote, because IMO the questions above are totally screwed up.

[BlackThief]

The lightgem has to be a seperate object. Period. This is not a question of voting because it is a technical issue. Therefore I will not vote, because IMO the questions above are totally screwed up.

I guess you got that wrong. spring means with a seperate object a compass like in T1/2 in the inventory.

[oDDity]

Yes, the compass in a separate part of the screen, you flip through your inventory to bring it up. And the light gem is alone in the centre (but this can also be turned off)

THis is what I want. It's a completely and totally unecessary distraction to have a compass constantly giggling about on the screen.

[Fingernail]

I thought about having the compass as a 'weapon', an actual model held in the Thief's hand which you can bring out of your inventory, consult (if you have enough light, or it could kinda glow, and then put away.

 

Like you would a real compass. None of this floating GUI stuff.

[BlackThief]

I thought about having the compass as a 'weapon', an actual model held in the Thief's hand which you can bring out of your inventory, consult (if you have enough light, or it could kinda glow, and then put away.

 

Like you would a real compass. None of this floating GUI stuff.

I brought this already up in the old forums - unfortunately the majority was against it...

 

edit: finger was right - I mixed in german word order

Edited December 31, 2004 by BlackThief

[Fingernail]

Great German word order there.

 

I think they may be open to the idea...I think it's a good one (and I knew it had already been mentioned, just not really argued away enough...and besides, we have a larger team now, so it's possible more people would be in favour )

 

Time Manner Place. And don't you forget it.

[oDDity]

Or, since we have two hands in this game, how about we use the right hand for weapons as normal, and the left hand for all inventory items - i.e, you actualy see the left arm disappaer and then reapper holding your inventory item, just like the right hand does for weapons.

This would include potions, keys, compass, flares, and various other objects that don't fall into the weapons category.

We could have animatons for the left hand for drinking potions, eating food, opening a door with a key etc.

[Fingernail]

As long as the player can't shoot the bow with his mysterious third hand whilst using his left to look at the compass, I agree. :lol: The weapons should not be usable (except maybe sword) whilst looking at inventory items in the other hand, methinks.

[oDDity]

Well, it really only affects the bow, all other weapons are one handed anyway, and surely the bow should also be drawn by the LEFT hand and the arrows with the right?

[Fingernail]

I just mean that someone needs to think of that before programming it.

 

I remember at least one game where you could dual-wield two pistols, and reload one with a mysterious third hand....

[sparhawk]

I guess you got that wrong. spring means with a seperate object a compass like in T1/2 in the inventory.

I understood what he mean. The option we can vote for is either T1/T2 style or T3. Keeping it in his hand is nonsense. The player who wants to use the compass should use it without ther need of constantly putting it away or grabbing it, just because he switches weapon. This is a gameplay feature and not some body simulation. Since the screen provides much less information then a real body would, the compass is not just a compass like a real world compass is. It is the only means of providing information that normally the body would.

I have the impression that things needs to be discussed just for the discussions sake instead of advancing the mod. Otherwise I don't understand why issues crop up again and again. I already said that the gem and the compass will be able to be switched off, and also the tilting is optional, so what do you think you are voting here for suddenly?

 

Those who don't want that stuff on screen, switch it off. Those who don't want tilting, switch it off. So why do we havew suddenly another 14 page discussion wether the compass should tilt or not?

[New Horizon]

Indeed. I don't think there has ever been a movement to force the tiling compass on anyone. I would simply like to see this tested, if it works it can remain an option for FM designers, if not we remove the tilting completely. We're not completely in lockdown yet.

 

Also, we've already voted for Offnish's model. We have to stick these votes, otherwise we're going to doubt our own credibility. In my opinion, this vote should simply ask if the compass should tilt. We've already decided on the lightgem and compass housing. Not to offend anyone, but I don't think we really needed to have this vote. The tilting can be switched off. I'm rather indifferent to the whole thing, but I would like to see it ingame before I make any firm decisions. I think that's where the issue lies right now. The amount of time it would take to code the compass to go up and down is probably nebligible.

[oDDity]

Ok, let's stop arguning then, we're decided , a T1&2 style system, with a lightgem in the bottom centre, and an optional tilting compass which appears in the left or right bottom corner which can be accessed through the inventory.

Let's just leave it at that shall we?

 

The vote is 4 in favour of this anyway.

[sparhawk]

Indeed. I don't think there has ever been a movement to force the tiling compass on anyone. I would simply like to see this tested, if it works it can remain an option for FM designers, if not we remove the tilting completely. We're not completely in lockdown yet.

Why should we reomve it if anybody who wants it can have it and all the others don't? I agree that the frobdistance is not a good idea ofr customization, but this is something that is purely a personal preference and doesn't affect gameplay at all, so I don't know why this has to be discussed without ends, as if there were no more important issues.

 

Next we will discuss with at least ten pages will be what colour the shoes of the Thief should be and what colour the laces for it should be. And after an extended period of voting and re-discussion we can continue with his socks or other equally important matters.

[New Horizon]

Why should we reomve it if anybody who wants it can have it and all the others don't? I agree that the frobdistance is not a good idea ofr customization, but this is something that is purely a personal preference and doesn't affect gameplay at all, so I don't know why this has to be discussed without ends, as if there were no more important issues.

 

Next we will discuss with at least ten pages will be what colour the shoes of the Thief should be and what colour the laces for it should be. And after an extended period of voting and re-discussion we can continue with his socks or other equally important matters.

No no, I'm not saying we remove it. I'm saying that anyone who wants to can disable it. I would like to see it implemented so I can see how it works in game.

 

There are questions in this poll (no offense Springheel ) That contradict what we've already decided upon. I'm just not sure what's going on here.

[TYROT]

dear TEAM

 

ARE YOU OK!!!? I mean what s happening..WHat kind of curse is this..?

 

Lightgem is becoming a puzzle itself..

 

My idea is so simple..Lets make Thief 1 or 2 style Not rotating, Not mumbo jumbo a cool looking LIGHTGEM ..Just for Light...

 

And for whose wants a compass lets make a compass..

 

I mean.. Im totally lost

 

People are thinking we have the SPIRIT of LGS..So that spirit will gather around a simple LGS style lightgem..

 

Do not even consider Thief 3 as a thief game. It s a copy of something that s it..

 

Please do SOLVE this puzzle..in one day..and let us work on it..

 

BEST

[Springheel]

2. and 6. are exactly tha same option written backwards, as are 3 and 5.

 

No they aren't, although it's difficult to word them in the space provided.

 

Option 2 means: I do NOT want it to tilt if the lightgem/compass is combined, but if it's an inventory item I don't care.

 

Option 6 means: YES, I want it to tilt if it's an inventory item, but if it's a combined lightgem/compass, I don't care.

 

The difference allows me to get a sense of who wants the gem to tilt only in certain conditions, or definitely NOT in certain conditions. Of course, that only works if people understand the options....

 

There are questions in this poll (no offense Springheel  ) That contradict what we've already decided upon. I'm just not sure what's going on here.

 

Problem is, we haven't really come to any decision, NH. The lightgem thread had a definite division of opinions on the issue, and I think some people were assuming the issue was decided because no one had posted anything new. But when I reread it, I didn't see any agreement. Voting for WHICH lightgem we want to use is premature until we can get this tilting issue out of the way.

 

As for suggesting that the tilting can be switched off, I didn't see that written anywhere, though it's possible I missed it. I saw options that the *compass* could be switched off, and I saw "it's going to tilt, period".

[sparhawk]

Voting for WHICH lightgem we want to use is premature until we can get this tilting issue out of the way.

The tilting is not an issue.

[New Horizon]

I've had some time to think about this in the shower and I just want to offer my two cents.

 

Where we seem to be getting hung up again is about what we're doing here. Are we making a game or are we making a toolset? Admitedly, a bit of both. However, first we're making the toolset. A toolset for Thiefstyle fan missions. That being said, they could be Thief 1,2 or 3 style missions.

 

We had decided in a previous poll to use Offnish's combined style compass/lightgem. We should stick with that. Whether it tilts up and down however is not really a decision we need to make. That is up to the FM author. Sparkhawk has said many times that he will code it in such a way that tilting is purely optional. So, when we go to make our own fan missions...we choose. Tilting on..or off? Whether or not it tilts shouldn't be a concern as there will be people who want it and people who don't.

 

The question that I think we should be asking in a poll is this.

 

Should we provide both a Thief 1, 2 style lightgem/ compass and a Thief 3 Lightgem/compass?

 

1. Yes

2. No

 

For what it's worth, I say yes. This really shouldn't be an issue. The option is there to turn it off. We can't go around creating deadlocks with each other, we have to be willing to back down and at least try an idea before we completely shoot it down. Lets see this ingame.

[Springheel]

To quote Domarius on Dec 23rd

If we vote now, it would be roughly tied, judging from the posts. I guess it still needs discussing.

 

There were not many more posts after this, leading me to believe that everyone who had something to suggest had already done it. Hence, a vote.

 

And I just reread the thread. Nowhere (in the last four pages, anyway) did it say that tilting would be optional. In fact, it sounded quite the opposite:

 

I don't think that this is an issue for voting. I already said that the compass will tilt.

 

If tilting is made optional, then that's a valid compromise, although it seems, going by what oDDity said, that it's a lot of work for our modelers and texturers.

[sparhawk]

Sparkhawk has said many times that he will code it in such a way that tilting is purely optional. So, when we go to make our own fan missions...we choose. Tilting on..or off? Whether or not it tilts shouldn't be a concern as there will be people who want it and people who don't.

This is not a FM author decision, becuase it is a PLAYERS preference. It is in the same class as which button should be the forward key. This is not decided by the author or anybody else except the player itself. And why would it be an FM author decisions? In most FMs the authors forgot to include the compass. They usually didn't leave it out on purpose they simply forgot it. If you don't believe that then go and look up the appropriate thread where I asked why in so many FMs there is no compass.

[sparhawk]

And I just reread the thread.  Nowhere (in the last four pages, anyway) did it say that tilting would be optional.  In fact, it sounded quite the opposite:

 

If we could keep a discussion about one topi in one thread it would certainly be easier to rehash it. Since there seem to be quite an urgent need to rehash everything at least twice, keeping a single thread would help a bit. And if we would write design documents everybody there would be even less need to rehash everything several times.

 

If tilting is made optional, then that's a valid compromise, although it seems, going by what oDDity said, that it's a lot of work for our modelers and texturers.

 

Where is the lot of work? It was not a lot of work to create already three lightgems.

 

And I already said, that we need the compass and the gem to be seperate objects anyway.