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Opinions on St. Lucia Demo


plasticman

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There are three different ways into the church...that's pretty good for a small map IMO.

 

Must have missed it. I tried the balcony door but twas locked, the key was on the guard? I checked after I jacked him but didn't see it.

 

We've already fixed the blurriness issue.

 

I actually mean the actual font the text is written, like the note in the bar right at start. I could hardly read it because I couldn't understand the letters because of the poor handwriting (font). Also the holy scripture book in the church main hall I just gave up on trying because the font was too dracula-like.

Edited by The Cow King
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I actually mean the actual font the text is written, like the note in the bar right at start. I could hardly read it because I couldn't understand the letters because of the poor handwriting (font). Also the holy scripture book in the church main hall I just gave up on trying because the font was too dracula-like.

 

This will be fixed once TDM is released, but for now you can fix this yourself. Open the console and type:

 

gui_smallFontLimit 0.15

 

and 

 

gui_mediumFontLimit 0.30

 

Before: 

StLucia_small_font_default.jpg 

 

After:

StLucia_small_font_fixed.jpg          

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Again, I don't have any technical issues whatsoever regarding the fonts, my only problem is that some of the THE FONTS THEMSELVES are very hard to read.

 

Example

 

2ccvwx4.jpg

 

It's pretty hard to read text like that especially when it's few pages, even more so if it's in old english with weird words. The pic you posted is very clear and easy to read even when it's blurred, but there were at least two books or notes in the map that I just couldn't make any sense of because of the font.

Edited by The Cow King
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Hmmm, odd. I didn't have trouble with any of the fonts.

 

I couldn't alter the resolution upwards though - it just gave me a lower res than the default on restarting. I've a GeForce 8800GT and a 22" widescreen TFT that is 16:9 and usually runs at 1680x1050 for everything else including Company of Heroes (which is widely used for benchmarking), HL2 and Left4Dead. I think I even ran Doom 3 at this res, though it did require messing about to get working.

 

There are 3 ways into the church. They are:

 

Through the service/refuse entrance, through the sewers (which are wonderful) or the balcony.

 

I can't remember if the patrolling guard has the key but I prefer the sneaker entrances than the ones that are almost through the front door.

I want your brain... to make his heart... beat faster.

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it was great!

 

everything ran fine for me except for the watter ... the game went into seizure mode like i haven't seen since i tried to play quake 2 with out a graphics accelerator.

 

well OK maybe not that bad but the game ran fine then when i went into the sewers or got close the the sewers my frame rate dumped down to about 5. i checked through the wiki and most of the fixes seemed to be fore people who constantly had frame rates that low.

 

i don't think it was a shadows issue as i tried putting out the torches and that did nothing but make it dark and slow. i kinda have a feeling its caused by the watter ripple effect and / or the sounds ( echo effects / watter droplets / splashes. ). as the game just seemed to get over loaded with something, if it was just shadows and lighting effect i should have been able to "look" away from what ever it was and have problem go away, but it didn't.

 

my gfx card is a a HD 2600 and i use my on board realtech audio ( after ripping out my audiology 2 sound card, the buggy piece of shit that it was. )

Edited by Sogi-Ya
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TCK: That's not one of our fonts (I appreciate you are probably just using a typical font as example.) Using Gothic caps is a worst case anyway. I avoided that in SL. These are the Dark Mod fonts. Note what I say there about Gothica2 (look poor if all capitals.)

 

http://wiki.thedarkmod.com/index.php?...nts_Screenshots

 

Everett is slightly difficult to read but tolerable. If you can post a screenshot from the game of the specific text you can't read we'll look into it. But it's not easy finding suitable fonts without restrictions and then processing them. I doubt they'll change before Release 1 but thanks for feedback.

 

Sogi-Ya: You're right that if you normally get decent framerates it ought not to dip in the sewer. I don't recall anyone having that specific problem there. As you say, maybe it's the water or there is some misty particle effects down there too. I can't think what else.

 

SE: I'm using a gforce gtx280 at 1680 x 1050. Here's my config setting. Does this not work for you?

 

seta r_customHeight "1050"
seta r_customWidth "1680"
seta r_mode "-1"

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Yes if you use custom resolutions you HAVE TO user r_mode -1, otherwise if it's r_mode 1,2,3,4,5 etc, it will ignore your custom res settings.

 

EDIT: I noticed the performance issue myself, with Anti Aliasing and/or Bloom on, when I go underwater framerates go down to 2 fps. I can't remember if it was caused by having bloom or on anti aliasing on.

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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I'm gonna guess its bloom then as i have been playing with AA off.

 

... only question is how do i turn off bloom?

 

*edit*

 

no thats not it as i didn't have bloom on .... in fact i didn't have the bloom thing down loaded.

Edited by Sogi-Ya
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I'm gonna guess its bloom then as i have been playing with AA off.

 

... only question is how do i turn off bloom?

 

*edit*

 

no thats not it as i didn't have bloom on .... in fact i didn't have the bloom thing down loaded.

 

open console and type: r_bloom 0 and hit enter

I always assumed I'd taste like boot leather.

 

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OK after beating my head against it for a while: its not bloom or AA, its something with either the gamma or brightens setting.

 

i was simply playing with things and i set the gamma and brightness at the same levels ( 1.97XXXXXX or something like that ) and the problem cleared up. what i had it at before was gamma higher than brightness, I'll continue to fiddle with it and see if i can break it again .....

 

*edit*

 

oh thank god no one read this, or at least they read it but didnt post ...

 

l_a166b275956cad2f1c89c48ecd10afac.gif

 

it wasn't the damned brightness or gamma ... that was just stupid. i got too happy when the game suddenly ran perfectly awesome.

 

i had turned off AA, adaptive AA, and anisotropic filtering in catalyst control center and forgotten about it ... when i turned those back on it broke it again.

 

i have a feeling it was the anisotropic filtering that was doing it as i can turn on AA in game and it runs fine.

Edited by Sogi-Ya
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I actually mean the actual font the text is written, like the note in the bar right at start. I could hardly read it because I couldn't understand the letters because of the poor handwriting (font). Also the holy scripture book in the church main hall I just gave up on trying because the font was too dracula-like.

 

This is actually an issue for some people, like non-english speakers will also have a hard time understanding too complex texts. However, making everything in "simple english with a modern font" would spoil the athmosphere, too :)

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

 

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

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would it be possible to add in a option in the setting to turn off stylized fonts?

 

( BTW, i had to turn off: AA, adaptive AA, anisotropic filtering, catalyst A.I. THEN everything worked. so basically turn off / app preference everything in CCC if you use a ATI card and you'll be fine.)

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Yes I think so. To revert all fonts back to the Doom 3 default, go into the saintlucia folder and rename the folder 'fonts' to say 'fontsDisabled'. If you just want to disable the fonts you have trouble reading then rename the individual folders inside fonts/english. For example, the gothic font is bamberg and the one in the bar is probably chrishand or jd_hand I think. If that doesn't work then move those folders out to a temporary folder somewhere (so you can put them back if it goes wrong.)

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I really don't see it becoming a setting in the GUI, but as Fidcal points out you can always rename or replace the troublesome fonts manually if you want to.

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Wouldn't it be better to remove the fonts that people have lots of trouble reading though? Modern fonts aren't necessarily needed, just some good 'handwriting' fonts. Dafont.com has some nice fonts in that case, as well as more legible gothic fonts...

Ha! So what if I am, huh? Anyways, I work better when I'm drunk. It makes me fearless! If I see a bad guy, I'll just point my sword at him. And saaaaaay "HEY! Bad guy! You're not s'pposed to be here! Go home or I'll stick you with my sword...'til you go...'Ouch I'm dead!' Ahahahah (hic) See? Ain't no one gonna be messin with old Benny."
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The gothic fonts we're actually using (as opposed to the one posted in this thread) are actually quite legible. With the new fix for blurry fonts in place (which wasn't in place for Saint Lucia), most of the TDM fonts look just fine. There are a couple that are a bit borderline, true, but can be great if used carefully and in moderation. As with many things in a toolkit as flexible as TDM, it really comes down to mapper discretion.

 

I will also note that mappers can add their own fonts, so there's nothing we can do to stop illegible fonts in the general case.

 

Finally, as Fidcal mentioned, it's not easy to find good free useable fonts without onerous licence restrictions, and I believe the TrueType->D3 font converter has some kerning issues which screw up some otherwise perfectly good fonts, so it's not necessarily trivial to find improved replacements for borderline fonts. :)

My games | Public Service Announcement: TDM is not set in the Thief universe. The city in which it takes place is not the City from Thief. The player character is not called Garrett. Any person who contradicts these facts will be subjected to disapproving stares.
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Great mod, it was easily on par with any of the Thief games. I loved all the little touches, like the key hidden in the pot on the ledge and obscure passageways that reward people who search every nook and cranny.

 

Have you started work on a next mission? And do you have a ballpark idea when might it might be ready for release?

 

Btw, how long did it take your team to create Tears of St. Lucia?

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Work proceeds on several exciting FMs which will be available in the Autumn and beyond. Hopefully by then there should be a steady stream of FMs to enjoy. :) Saint Lucia was worked on and off throughout most of last year I think but some nice little missions have been produced in much shorter time so later this year you should not have so long to wait for new games.

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Work proceeds on several exciting FMs which will be available in the Autumn and beyond. Hopefully by then there should be a steady stream of FMs to enjoy. :) Saint Lucia was worked on and off throughout most of last year I think but some nice little missions have been produced in much shorter time so later this year you should not have so long to wait for new games.

 

I have nothing else to say but... Good job guys! =)

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  • 1 month later...

Nutshell Review: This map is so awesome it almost made me cry when I played it.

 

*****

 

Short review: I have, so far, played all 4 missions available for TDM (Thief's Den, St. Lucia, Closemouthed Shadows, and Ship4) several times. I can't get enough. The game looks awesome, the physics are impeccable... its utterly amazing.

 

Seriously, this is just outstanding. I wait with utterly batied breath for any signs of a new map.

 

*****

 

Detailed critique (for the patient):

 

Things that are better (than the original games):

 

- Graphics. TDM is head-and-shoulders above the original games, or any mod out there. T3 with the texture pack enhancements come very close, as the Doom3 engine accomplishes many of the same things; however, while the two might look similar, the performance of the D3 engine is light years better (once it loads).

 

- Physics. T3 looks great, but feels horrible. It takes approximately forty seven minutes to lean left or right in T3. Jumping in all three games (but especially T3) gives the impression of floating through jell-o; much more realistic here. Mantling is FANTASTIC in TDM - the game seems smart enough to mantle into a small, crouch-sized opening without any idiotic shenanigans or control acrobatics necessary. Mantling from a rope-arrow was effortless and about how I'd expect things to work. Arrows that hit walls bounce everywhere and can be recovered. Objects within objects (Like, say, a key stashed in a boot) are just amazing. There's actually a skeleton in one of the crypts, visible through the cracked lid... it isn't just a texture, it actually appears to be an object. How completely awesome.

 

- AI. Though certainly _not_ without its problems, the AI in the original games and most mods is kind of deaf, dumb, and blind. The AI in TDM is... frightening, frankly. As in, I had to steel myself in order to try to blackjack someone, because these guards are alert and can take you apart very quickly. (This also has something to do with blackjacking's current state of "really, really difficult", but more on that later).

 

- Stealing. In specific, taking an item that is NOT treasure isn't the huge problem it is in T1/2/3... you can put it back down without causing a ruckus, or even making a sound. This fixes the problem loot glint was designed to fix without resorting to being the tacky spectacle that loot glint actually was. Also, the range with which one can steal things feels extraordinary, but not inhuman... well done there.

 

- Blackjacking. In particular, the idea that knocking someone out has to do with a blunt object hitting a skull, and NOTHING to do with how "alert" or "alarmed" a person is. YES to the idea that you can still knock someone out even if they know you're there and are looking right at you - this is how it should have worked all along. As difficult and admittedly buggy as blackjacking still is in St. Lucia, I consider this part of it to be a fix for a bug that originated all the way back in T1. Also, yes to the idea of not being able to knock someone in a helmet out! That's another idea who's time has come.

 

- Dragging bodies. GOD YES. I literally applauded this decision in the comfort of my home while playing. I don't think people realize how hard it actually IS to pick up an unconscious body and heft it around over one's shoulder... you'd have to be REALLY fit to do this as effortlessly as it seems to be done in the games. Dragging, and dragging by body part, no less, is a huge improvement over the originals, even and especially because of the problems it causes (one leg getting caught on a doorframe, etc). (EDIT: just read that you can actually shoulder them, in St. Lucia - haven't tried it out yet, but I hope it is SLOW).

 

- Death animations. Seriously, this is gloriously done. Shoot a broad head into a guard's eye, and tell me that doesn't look completely, fantastically realistic. It is an improvement over the slow-fall deaths in T1&2, and the utterly ridiculous, spring-loaded, body-folds-in-half ragdoll effects of T3. While we're on the topic, the blackjack animation actually looks like a strike with conviction, instead of a gesture. Well-done, there.

 

 

Things that are as good as the original games:

 

- SWIMMABLE WATER. (Dang, T3... what were you thinking??)

 

- Frobbable highlight (Death to blue. Again, T3, WTF.)

 

- Lighting, provided a shadow can alert a guard (I didn't see any opportunity to test this in any of the missions)

 

- Ability to see/navigate in the lowest of lighting conditions

 

 

Things that are worse than the original games (aka things I see as "problems" - and I'm leaving out obvious bugs and known issues, like the menu-thing, the texture thing, and the blackjacking difficulty thing; they are bugs, they do exist, but I know they're being adjusted and worked on and people are probably sick to death of hearing about them. Instead, I'm focussing on things that I either haven't seen reported as bugs, or things that appear to be intentional that I don't like. As such, this is going to be a pretty short list, composed almost entirely of minor nit picks):

 

- Candles. Good idea, problematic implementation: Can't pinch 'em out, but you can pick them up. However, if you pick one up and run with it or throw it into water, it stays lit. :blink: I think just moving a candle should cause it to go out, unless it is moved very slowly and deliberately.

 

- Oil lantners. They look like you should be able to pinch them out (see above), but I couldn't douse them even with water arrows. :angry: Bah!

 

- Sound. Footsteps on stone are far too loud for someone who should know how to walk softly, even in penny loafers (and why does the thief sound like he's wearing penny loafers? I've been saying this since Thief 1, but... shouldn't he be in moccasins or something??). I realize there is a gameplay aspect to this, certainly; footfalls have to make some noise on each surface type. I also realize the mod's mission to stay faithful to the originals. However, if we can improve the status quo (blackjacking regardless of alert status, dragging bodies), then the crux of the complaint is that a thief should have a sound advantage here, the same way he has a light advantage; I would expect that a thief walking on stone would be, say, 50% quieter than a guard walking on stone, all other things (like hard-soled shoes) being equal. And that difference of volume should, IMO, be applied to whether or not a guard gets alerted to a thief's presence.

 

- Sound again - sound seems to propagate everywhere, though I wonder if this is an engine limitation. I didn't notice a volume change when a door is opened or closed (though I DID notice that guards will be less likely alerted to your presence through doors... maybe my imagination?). As such, this is a pathetically minor gripe, but there you go. Also, it'd be nice to lean into a door (like in T3) to "hear" through it, but that's way more RFE than "bug".

 

- Torch light creates still shadows everywhere; I'd expect shadows cast from open flame to flicker (yeah, I'm TOTALLY nitpicking now, especially since this would likely destroy performance in some areas). I can see how candles and oil lamps - things with small, largely un-flickering flames - would cast still shadows, but I kind of expected all the shadows in the crypt to be moving.

 

*****

 

The bottom line, for me, is that even in its pre-beta condition, The Dark Mod is the rightful heir to the Thief throne. It is very arguably a better looking, feeling, and playing game than T:DS turned out to be, and I'm one of those people who actually liked T:DS and didn't think it deserved as much negative criticism as it got.

 

Bravo, well done, and thank you all for doing this. I can't wait for more. :laugh:

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Thanks for the kind (and extensive) words. We're actually a matter of weeks away from releasing the beta version of the mod (with some new maps) so stay tuned. Many of the issues you mention have already been dealt with. :)

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