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#1 kfmccall

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 03:45 PM

The first set of bots. In the first one, the spotlights would be projected out of the two eyes when the bot is suspicious. The eyes are movable in many directions, much in the likeness of a chameleon. The smaller two are quick sketches. If there are any aspects of these bots (shapes etc) that seem to fit, let me know and I'll carry those into more designs.

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#2 oDDity

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 04:40 PM

I like the spinning wheel on the bottom left, kind of like a clockwork robot, that would fit very well. I dont' like the hed on it thogh, it looks too alien. IT could do with a small wheel at the back to balance.
I like the first one, but how does it move? Just roll around on that ball?
THe third one looks too futiristic, and you want to stay away from any ariels, there are no radio signals in the game setting.
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#3 Springheel

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 06:28 PM

The second one has potential, but needs some kind of furnace for power. The third one, like Odd said, looks too futuristic. The first one isn't bad, but how would it balance on a single ball like that? It would look better with four spider-type legs underneath.

We will also need to give some thought to how the bots will be disabled, whether that means an open furnace grate like T2, or something else.
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#4 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 18 August 2005 - 09:18 PM

You're quick kfmccall. Keep up the good work :) I'm gonna work on a movie camera bot here; hope you don't mind. Feel free to do the same, the more concepts, the merrier, imo.

#5 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 01:48 AM

I was just htinking- there were actually radio transmitters in T2, that's how Karras caled the sevants in at the end, still we don't want ariels.
I'd like you to play up the clockwork thing as well, I'd like to see a kind of clockwork bot with the inner workings quite visible.
Anmd I don't think we should have the old grill/water arrow thing. I always thought that was fucking stupid, and so contrived it screamed at you.
YOu may as ell just have an 'off' switch on them that you can hit from a distance with a broadhead.
I think they shoiyld be damn hard to disable - mines, a few expolsive arrows or luring them into water being the only methods.
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#6 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 02:37 AM

I thought the boiler bots were slightly ingenious. Rather than a typical on/off switch, you had to put some cold water on them. What's wrong with that? It beats the alternatives of ( a ) typical on/off switches, or ( b ) throwing a mine at them or hacking at them with a sword. Though, I see you'd rather toss a mine at 'em. Oh well.

On the clockwork note, that would be pretty cool to see them work. Additionally, it'd be cool to be able to launch a broadhead (or an all new Dark Mod exclusive steel arrow, if we so deem) into the gears to jam them up and stop the bot.

#7 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 03:00 AM

NO, the bolier bots water arrow weakness was stupid - why would they leave an open grill like that?
THe first time you see them in T2, there is a note below some water arrows from Karras saying how ridiculous it is that they can be so easily disabled by a shower of rain, so the designers themselves realised how stupid it was and admitted it to the player.
Aside from that it was too easy to disable them, water arrows are too common., At least mines and fire arrows are rare AND they make a lot of noise.
LGS were just desparate for a stealth way of disabling bots, and this is all they could come up with.
THe inventors would not make their bots so easy to disable by anyone who wandered in. If you can't sneak around the bots without disabling them, then you shouldn't be playing the game. Play siomething easier.
Certainly the sentry and atack bots should not be so easy to disable. THier only purpose is security and they'd be made in a way that's very difficult to disable wthout sheer brute force.
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#8 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 03:02 AM

True true. I'm never playing Thief again. It's too complicated for me; I only going to play Super Mario Bros for the rest of my life :)

#9 Domarius

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 03:39 AM

kmfccall - that is super awesome how you thought of the spotlight feature for that first sentry. That will use D3's dynamic lighting to good effect. A totally heart jumping moment that couldnt be created in T2, when you suddenly have a visible shaft of light pointed on you.

THe first time you see them in T2, there is a note below some water arrows from Karras saying how ridiculous it is that they can be so easily disabled by a shower of rain, so the designers themselves realised how stupid it was and admitted it to the player.

To me that is an obvious tip for the player to tell them how to disable them, not the designers admitting it was a stupid idea. Games are full of these tips and Thief is no different. "Last time I saw my gold watch I was swimming in the pool in the court yard. Perhaps I look for it later."

#10 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 05:21 AM

Except this ingame note was from the leader of the guys who designed the bots, saying 'THis design is useless - change them immediately to a better one, or I'll have you killed'
So it would be reather silly for us to continue with the same design.
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#11 Springheel

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 07:55 AM

It's quite a sophisticated way of disabling bots, actually. Since you can only hit them in the back, It forces you to have a good hiding spot and strike from the shadows. Much more in line with a stealth game then just firing a fire arrow or mine at them. How much more FPS can you get?
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#12 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:19 AM

It is a stealth method of disabling them, but it's totally contrived. If it were up to me there wold be no mines in the game, and you'd have to sneak around them. That's the stealthiest way of all, and the hardest.
I think it stands to reason that since these bots are being designed by some very clever men for the express purpose of security, that they'd make them slightly more secure than being disabled than by some kid with a water balloon.
I've never understood why you have to have a method of killing or disabling everything in the game, when you already have the ability to sneak past them.
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#13 sparhawk

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 09:49 AM

Whats contrived about a steampowered bot that is fueled by fire to put it out with water arrows? IMO this fits perfectly well. Especially as steam is the primary source of energy here and there HAS to be some airvents to keep the fire going. So this weekness would be inherent to anything powered by fire.
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#14 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 10:13 AM

THat's why I'd prefer clockwork bots.
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#15 kfmccall

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:41 PM

Heres some more bot sketches. Just throwing in more ideas.

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#16 sparhawk

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 02:41 PM

THat's why I'd prefer clockwork bots.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


What would be their weekness? Run until the spring has to be rewound? After all it's a game, so the player should have some way to disable them.
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#17 Darkness_Falls

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 04:29 PM

What would be their weekness? Run until the spring has to be rewound? After all it's a game, so the player should have some way to disable them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Launch a broadhead (or an all new Dark-Mod-exclusive steel arrow, if we so deem) into the gears to jam them up. I think it'd be neat to do this and watch them crash down and die. Unfortunately, it would probably be a somewhat noisy kill, but could be quieted somewhat by skillfully laying down some moss first and then timing an arrow-jam (or some other stick-jam) just rightt so they crash into the moss.

I liked being able to stealthily kill the T2 steam-bots. And it wasn't always easy -- those bots swayed back and forth, moved fairly quickly and did lots of turning. If you missed the vents, they were alerted. This was perfect, imo.

#18 oDDity

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 04:33 PM

That's my point, he doesn't have to have a way to disable them. He can sneak around them. That's the difference between a stealth game and a shooter.
I want to see enemies in the game that the thief is powerless against, and has to simply stick to the shadows and sneak around.
IT is not a requirement of the game that the player has to have the ability to kill or disable every single AI, or is there a secret games rule book somewhere that I haven't seen?

Kevin, if you take the head for the main bot in oyur first post, take the legs and spinning wheel from the second on in your first ost, and add that little back wheel form the main bot in your last post, I think it would work, with some more clockwork detail added.
Wu;ld make an excellent sentry.
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#19 Springheel

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 05:36 PM

I want to see enemies in the game that the thief is powerless against,


That's why we have elite AI. There's no reason we can't have an elite bot with no weaknesses, but regular bots should have them.
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#20 sparhawk

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 06:11 PM

Do you know why Thief can exists in the first place? Yes! Because there are WEAKNESSESS in any security system. If there were not, there would be no Thiefs because they would be caught all the time. And sneaking alone doesn't cut it.
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#21 kfmccall

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 07:10 PM

I didn't want to draw the head again, so the perspective is a little funny, hence why I detached the wheel part. Let me know if the sizing is right for the wheel.

Also: on the large wheel, there are those wood panels that go across one of the sides, there should be another wood panel parallel to those shown on the other side of the wheel as well, I forgot to sketch those in.

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#22 Springheel

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 07:17 PM

How does he stay balanced? At the moment it looks like the slightest thing would knock him right over. He really needs some legs.
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#23 oDDity

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 02:05 AM

I meant something like this, with some more clockwork bits and pieces.
THe walking apparatus can operate by clockwork, and the spotloight/eyes by steam, so if you put the boiler out it out it runs around like a headless chicken for a while on the stored energy in the springs..

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#24 _Atti_

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 10:20 AM

"That's my point, he doesn't have to have a way to disable them. He can sneak around them. That's the difference between a stealth game and a shooter.
I want to see enemies in the game that the thief is powerless against, and has to simply stick to the shadows and sneak around."


well dont forget that in the first place this mod is about to give fans a thief-like toolset on d3e..we do need to give future fm authors disabable bots..not everyone thinks as you or me or any of us here..

#25 pakmannen

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 11:59 AM

That's a great combination Odd. Love it.



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