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So, what are you working on right now?


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#7551 Springheel

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 09:00 AM

3. Art/Paintings

Compared to a detailed, high-resolution photography, brush-drawn art has a much lower resolution of the image, much  less details are visible.

The human mind seems to replace the missing details with an internal model that is idealized, therefore giving the impression that a painting is "beautiful", "more" or more perfect than reality.

 

 

Very true.  That was the entire driving force behind impressionism.
 

 

The red light ("red light district") makes imperfections on female skin (which are often bluish in color, for example small bluish veins) much less visible (no blue light --> blue things become "invisible"), creating the illusion of perfect skin, therefore driving this business.

 

 

Huh, never heard that before, but it makes sense.


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#7552 Anderson

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Posted 16 December 2017 - 10:50 AM

Outlooker, on 16 Dec 2017 - 2:06 PM, said:
Spoiler

I would beg to differ. Absolute perfection can be totally fake and doll type of girls are repulsive from the aspect of pure animal, instinctual desirability, for alas they lack the necessary qualities to be parents. On the contrary, slightly hairy yet muscular, developed women legs indicate better proneness to survival, adaptation and effort for the continuity of the human species and a better reliability as potential parent.
Nylon stockings as a currency is no rarity in times of catastrophe. During crisis all logic is turned off and this wouldn't be the best example in sociology of human behaviorism IMHO. 
 
But your argument concerning paintings was good.

Edited by Anderson, 16 December 2017 - 10:52 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#7553 Spooks

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:29 AM

Actually, it's FotoSketcher. That's how it works, it's an algorithm.

 

edit: It's what I used for the loading screens in King of Diamonds! Now you know.


Edited by Spooks, 19 December 2017 - 09:36 AM.

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#7554 Epifire

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 11:46 PM

Thanks Spooks! This thing looks incredible, I'm trying to wonder why I never heard of this thing sooner!

 

It's pretty fantastic how the app derives brush strokes and smudging technique right into the mix. With a lot of flexibility and options I might add.


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#7555 Springheel

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 09:02 AM

Yeah, I just downloaded it an I'm pretty impressed as well.  I find it even better than Photoshop.


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#7556 NeonsStyle

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 08:48 PM

*
POPULAR

This is my current project, I've shown bits of this before, it's getting more developed now. Venice of course, and this

is an icon of the grand canal and Realto bridge in Venice. Theres no skybox atm so it looks bit bland skywise. 

 

p88PVQ0.jpg

 

 

f2CSwqh.jpg

 

1H8kmAo.jpg


Edited by NeonsStyle, 21 December 2017 - 08:49 PM.

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#7557 Obsttorte

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 02:33 AM

Judging from the amount of lights I can see why you don't have the FPS-counter enabled in those shots. :P


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#7558 peter_spy

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:07 AM

Hey, he seems to have one light per 3 lanterns for houses in the background, at least I hope that's what it is ;)



#7559 NeonsStyle

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 03:30 AM

Yeh I'll sort out the fps issues later on. At the moment I'm getting 34 fps. My goal is to build it as I'd like to see it, then scale back

to give best performance on good systems and use the LOD to refine it. Perfornance though is a long long way away, it's still in

the building stages. I like to build to finished look, and move on. I find it easier to match everything that way.


Edited by NeonsStyle, 22 December 2017 - 03:31 AM.

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#7560 peter_spy

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:32 AM

 

Yeh I'll sort out the fps issues later on.

 

If you don't have any portals yet, or if the fps dip is be around 10 fps, then sure. But that approach kind of never works in the long run. You'll get to a point where you'd have to delete lights and models, and thus decrease visual quality of your scene. You will be very reluctant to do so. It kind of already happened with Briarwood Manor, so you already know how it's like. There's a good lesson from industry veterans on that, which comes down to "always playable, always at performance" motto. Nobody asks you to employ the whole LEAN process in your level design, but a lot of these points are actually super-helpful, even with small projects like fan missions:

 

https://youtu.be/WClXGuRQCjA?t=11m5s

 

 



#7561 Obsttorte

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 04:53 AM

Yeh I'll sort out the fps issues later on.

Yeah, that's the pro approach. :P But seriously, many mappers do this, and thus we have quiet some maps with performance issues.

then scale back to give best performance

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "scaling back".

use the LOD to refine it.

LOD has to be planned to begin with. If you want to do it at the end, it means that you will have to replace every entity in your map where you want to use it on and to convert anything that isn't an entity yet to be able to use it on. A very time-consuming and inefficient approach.

Performance though is a long long way away

Performance should be one of the first things to consider, especially when planning a map where you know that performance will be an issue.

I can understand your building style, as it is exactly the same way that I have build my missions back in the day. And I ran into performance issues, too, although those were indoor areas.

When aiming to create something apart from the "standard", you really have to adopt your building style to that. This is no criticism, just a good advice.


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#7562 Bikerdude

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:08 AM

@NS, drop me a PM with a link to the map, so I can show you were you need to perf.



#7563 Melan

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:38 AM

I wholeheartedly approve of making ambitious maps. The future will vindicate the effort. Nice-looking work, too!  ;)


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#7564 NeonsStyle

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 07:53 AM

Yeh I'll sort out Perf along the way, at the moment I'm just working out how to get the right feel for Venice. It's very very early stages

in the level so I don't think I need to get too deep just yet, I'm still working out the look I want. Then I'll implement a lot of the things

I learned from making Briarwood Manor - yes and the mistakes Judith lol .  Obst, definitely undertand not crits Obst. I don't take offence. :)


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#7565 Melan

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:53 AM

If anything, I'd use fewer, strategically positioned light sources to create interesting shadowy contrasts, and more dark areas.


Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#7566 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 08:54 AM

LOD has to be planned to begin with. If you want to do it at the end, it means that you will have to replace every entity in your map where you want to use it on and to convert anything that isn't an entity yet to be able to use it on. A very time-consuming and inefficient approach.

 

 

It's actually not as hard as that makes it sound.  Even if you're using models or brushwork that doesn't have LOD entities already made, you can always use the hide_distance command and fake your own LOD.  For example, you could take a screenshot of those distant buildings, make a texture out of them, and then put a thin brush with that texture behind the building.  Then, the entire face of the building, lights and all, could be hidden at a certain distance, to be replaced with the single textured brush and a single light.


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#7567 peter_spy

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:14 AM

Speaking about performance, and this is probably a question to our lovely programmers: what actually prevents us from having more drawcalls per scene available? Engine limitations? OpenGL API? Other?

 

I can have around 3000-4000 DCs on my system, before FPS starts to go down. To put this in some perspective, in 3dmark API overhead test I got to around 35 000 drawcalls, in single-threaded DX11, before FPS dropped below 60. That's 10x more. Is there any way to get more from our hardware?
 


Edited by Judith, 22 December 2017 - 10:18 AM.


#7568 Bikerdude

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:18 AM

Its an engine limitation, but yes its a bit of a holy grail for TDM.  I would have kittens if we could have even 10k, let alone 30k before slowdowns.

 

Also dont forget we have been limited to DX9 and OpenGL, now that we have GLSL in 2.06 perhaps there is room to tweak the operf for 2.07?


Edited by Bikerdude, 22 December 2017 - 10:20 AM.


#7569 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:34 AM

It's not primarily the drawcalls that tank performance, it's the shadows.  You can go well above 5k draws as long as your shadow count is low.


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#7570 peter_spy

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:39 AM

I think that's kind of specific to your machine, Spring. Or to mine. My shadow range can differ from scene to scene, but DCs have to be more or less on the same level.

 

 

I would have kittens if we could have even 10k.

 

+1 :)


Edited by Judith, 22 December 2017 - 10:40 AM.


#7571 Bikerdude

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:42 AM

It's not primarily the drawcalls that tank performance, it's the shadows.  You can go well above 5k draws as long as your shadow count is low.

Hmm yes and no and maybe its just me, but I have scenes where there is a lot of geom with lots of tris and hardly any shadows casting lights and the perfs drops.



#7572 Springheel

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:47 AM

I think that's kind of specific to your machine, Spring. Or to mine. My shadow range can differ from scene to scene, but DCs have to be more or less on the same level.

 

 

+1 :)

 

 

That's interesting.  I wonder how much that varies from machine to machine?  Conventional wisdom has always said that it's the number of lights (and therefore shadows) that impacts fps in idTech4, and I've confirmed that on my machine, at least.  As long as shadows are less than 80k, drawcalls can go quite high.  But once shadows get over about 120k, even quite low drawcalls affect performance.


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#7573 peter_spy

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:52 AM

I thought that, since DCs are part of CPU -> GPU pipeline, that's the weakest link in any system. In my tests I could have something like 230k shadow tris in one scene. Recommended is, as you say 80-100k, so that might scale with GPU / better drivers? But max DC was always around 3k–3,5k for me, regardless of other values.



#7574 Obsttorte

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 05:16 PM

 

It's actually not as hard as that makes it sound.  Even if you're using models or brushwork that doesn't have LOD entities already made, you can always use the hide_distance command and fake your own LOD.  For example, you could take a screenshot of those distant buildings, make a texture out of them, and then put a thin brush with that texture behind the building.  Then, the entire face of the building, lights and all, could be hidden at a certain distance, to be replaced with the single textured brush and a single light.

You can do this. But this way you jump from high detailed to very low detailed without anything in between. And if the performance requires it, you will have to do this on rather short distances. Not optimal. And if you know you are going to use it anyway, I don't see why you shouldn't do so to begin with.

 

RE drawcall/shadow counts: Both will affect performance once a certain limit is hit. Where those limits are is probably highly depending on the hardware used (and probably the drivers as well) as already pointed out. I guess the fact that the performance drops at considerable lower drawcalls then it is the case with modern engines will probably be the way how the engine handles the data. The engine was build with the hardware in mind that was available back in the day, and modern engines aim for modern hardware. And we are talking about more then ten years of development. I fairly doubt clockrates and memory sizes are all that have changed over the time :)

 

I wholeheartedly approve of making ambitious maps.

I do so too. But higher ambitions always means more work. And ignoring that fact will lead to unsatisfying results.


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#7575 NeonsStyle

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 10:18 PM

 

I do so too. But higher ambitions always means more work. And ignoring that fact will lead to unsatisfying results.

 

I don't mind more, work, in fact I like it. When I get into it, I find it more like a meditative thing, a lot like painting. Something you just zone out to. 

I will definitely consider all these things as it develops. 


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