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TDM Fan Mission Lists: Released and Upcoming


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#26 fllood

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 10:02 AM

Anyone taking over an abandoned FM must upload his work say monthly to a private website run by a few volunteers. If he does not submit within two months without explanation then it is regarded as abandoned again and the latest work is made available again.

That would be a really good and maintainable approach to avoid "abandoned FMs in work" being lost as well as motivate people who hesitate to take over because not knowing if their time permit to finish them. Even if someone who adops an FM run out of time or motivation the additional work won't be lost. Like a chain project the FM eventually will be released to the community that way.

It would be practicable enough if the abandoned FM's would be archived on a non-public TDM server and an list for abandoned maps added to the wiki with a link to a brief readme file which tell the rough setting, intended story and the build done so far. This should be added by an entry either "open for adoption" or the authors name who adopted FM with a due date he or she has to send the updates assets of the FM and any documentation ( unsolved issues, story details, etc.) to the volunteer managing the abandoned FM's.

So in praxis any author getting stuck, dismotivated or don't have the time to work anymore on a FM hopefully send his work to the volunteer managing the abandoned FM's. Then any request to take over must be send to this volunteer as well. He then send the FM with any documentation and asset files to the new author and do update the wiki with author name and due date. Before the due date the author MUST send all updates uncalled to the person managing the abandoned FM's. If not the volunteer set the FM again to "open for adoption" and the most current version is still archived. (Only) the volunteer and the TDM team have always access to the abandoned FM's on the TDM server. This would also make sure if the volunteer should "disappear" one day anyone can step in for the role without any assets lost. And TDM team haven't to cope with all that abandoned FM workload!

Would be a pity if abandoned great work would get lost...

Edited by fllood, 30 April 2011 - 12:31 PM.

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

#27 Bikerdude

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 12:14 PM

Not wishing to discourage or demean anyone but Biker, your strength is in building not story. If you take this on get someone to help with the story and gameplay.

Agreed! so I may get MD to consult and or do the story while I do the grunt work. otherwise I am sure there are more than enough people availble to help wioth the story.

#28 Glyph Seeker

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Posted 30 April 2011 - 01:09 PM

@Fllood

That's a good way of describing it, yes. Whilst, when looking over things, it seems we've probably already lost some maps "through the cracks" - it would be nice to have a 'safety net' to try and keep some of the huuuge labour of love maps which appear to be heading towards limbo! =-P

@Bikerdude

I'm sure it'll be a great collaboration! =3
"No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's
downward blow
Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—
The odds are on the cheaper man.
"


From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

#29 fllood

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:06 AM

If you take a short glance through the "what are you working on right now" and "newbie questions" threads it feels that more than a hundred people started a map but only twentyfive authors did release FM's so far - so there must be lot of abandoned assets. even if only parts worth reusabele as prefabs it would be a benefit to TDM as there is always some good share of intersting brushwork, ideas and experiments lost when people give up and vanish.

It is not unusual that people start building with much enthusism and sooner or later lack skill, time or loose interest. But it feels to me it is higher-than-average in TDM that folks give up their mapping ideas. Do you have the same impresssion?

What do you think are the reasons (beside time and fading interest) that so many people did abandon working on a map in TDM??
"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

#30 Glyph Seeker

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:27 AM

If you take a short glance through the "what are you working on right now" and "newbie questions" threads it feels that more than a hundred people started a map but only twentyfive authors did release FM's so far - so there must be lot of abandoned assets. even if only parts worth reusabele as prefabs it would be a benefit to TDM as there is always some good share of intersting brushwork, ideas and experiments lost when people give up and vanish.

It is not unusual that people start building with much enthusism and sooner or later lack skill, time or loose interest. But it feels to me it is higher-than-average in TDM that folks give up their mapping ideas. Do you have the same impresssion?

What do you think are the reasons (beside time and fading interest) that so many people did abandon working on a map in TDM??


Well, as you say, I feel it's a mixture of different things - but I think it might be over ambition in the main, which then leads to frustration or drains so much time it becomes unmanageable. The thrill of the artist is in creating - but it's also in seeking approval when the thing you are creating only really exists when it is being /played/. You can get beta mappers to help with playthroughs and things. But it's such a lump of work to do before it can appear sitting proud in the download manager in game...

If you're drawing some fan art of something you can show work in progress and people will instantly say "wow, looking good!" and you can get a drip drip of encouragement - but you can't do exactly the same thing with a Fan Mission, because it's an organic thing that either works --- or it's broken. =-P

Just the impression I get!

Speaking for myself - I have a burgeoning idea to plan out a Down In The Bonehoard type huge crypt level. Now, that is utterly silly for a newbie mapper- but it is something which gets me enthusiastic. I think that if you follow that enthusiasm to make your first level - you may well run out of steam because you keep hitting your head against a wall when you keep on trying new things every day!
"No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's
downward blow
Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—
The odds are on the cheaper man.
"


From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

#31 Sotha

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:51 AM

Higher-than-average fm abandonent rate. What is the standard you compare it to? If you take an average from mods in general you get an abandoned mod. TDM has made it far..

So I dont know if fms are abandoned more here than elsewhere.

Fm building requires a persistant dedication and a good plan. I think new mappers underestimate the task and jump in believing they'll build superior maps with very little trouble. Then they realize that there are many things to be learned. Most likely they have too ambitious plan. Then they use a lot of time in the editor and produce inferior looking scenes. They give up.

It is a shame since only with practice and a good workflow they can learn to build pretty scenes rather quickly.

People should build small simple maps as their first ones to avoid being overwhelmed. Seriously. Do not do bonehoard as your first map. Make a simple 4-5 room heist.
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#32 Baal

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 08:52 AM

What do you think are the reasons (beside time and fading interest) that so many people did abandon working on a map in TDM??

Bringing a map from nothing to a releasable state can take years. Not hearing from people for month doesn't mean their work is abandoned. Sometimes one just needs a time-off from mapping.
I, for example, just noticed that I've shown my first screenshots a year ago. But it's still coming (slowly). :)

#33 nbohr1more

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:07 AM

Hate to bring this up but on more than one occasion folks have reported building their map then asking about visportals.

If there is an attrition factor, I would imagine it's new mappers either realizing or finding after-the-fact that they should've planned to visportal their maps.

Maybe someday Greebo or another contributor will figure out how to make a reasonably practical auto-visportal feature in Dark Radiant. That might save a few of those lost maps. (Though, the ideal place to implement such a tool would be the map compiler so when Doom 3 goes GPL maybe someone will look at that instead. )

Of course, (AFAIK) Bikerdude, Baddcog, Baal, and Mortem Desino have been willing to help folks with visportal design so if the newbies are patient they can get help. As the roster of veterans grows so will the number of available helpers. :)
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#34 Glyph Seeker

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 10:32 AM

Higher-than-average fm abandonent rate. What is the standard you compare it to? If you take an average from mods in general you get an abandoned mod. TDM has made it far..

So I dont know if fms are abandoned more here than elsewhere.

Fm building requires a persistant dedication and a good plan. I think new mappers underestimate the task and jump in believing they'll build superior maps with very little trouble. Then they realize that there are many things to be learned. Most likely they have too ambitious plan. Then they use a lot of time in the editor and produce inferior looking scenes. They give up.

It is a shame since only with practice and a good workflow they can learn to build pretty scenes rather quickly.

People should build small simple maps as their first ones to avoid being overwhelmed. Seriously. Do not do bonehoard as your first map. Make a simple 4-5 room heist.


Heh, don't worry, Sotha, I was using myself as a bad example of over ambition! I know full well that a very small heist / den mission is definitely the first thing to do! =-)
"No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's
downward blow
Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—
The odds are on the cheaper man.
"


From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

#35 Mortem Desino

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 11:45 AM

Absolutely! :) Don't think that people will be "disappointed" if the mission is small. One of my favorite FMs was "Too Late" just because I loved staking out on top of the warehouse crates! :ph34r:
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#36 Melan

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 11:48 AM

Abandoned missions did not stop folks from building the ca. 900 Dromed-based FMs though... But if there is a way to use them, go for it. I'd do it myself if I didn't have a large map to finish myself. :wub:
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#37 fllood

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 01:13 PM

Higher-than-average fm abandonent rate. What is the standard you compare it to?

I do compare to Thief FM's. It is a very personal impression as said. I may be wrong.

Anyway do you come up with other reasons why people give up their work apart the ususal ones (found in every mod community)? Reasons that ties with TDM/DR itself? Like nbohr1mores thoughts about VPs?!
And IF so, is there something that can be done about it to see less FM abandoned because of that reasons?

I think it might be over ambition in the main, which then leads to frustration or drains so much time it becomes unmanageable.

yes, that is a major reason indeed!

Make a simple 4-5 room heist.

That some people claim again and again "oh just another room heist seen hundred times in Thief FMs" or that they won't play TDM for the lack of some "huge abitious killer missions" (see "ttlg stuck in the past" thread among others) won't motivate some new mappers doing a simple room heist or something resaonable ambitioned like Melan's latest FM speed build. Personally the one FM I do replay most is Too Late. So it will not detain myself...

[edit: ah I'm with MD about Too Late] :)

Edited by fllood, 01 May 2011 - 01:15 PM.

"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

#38 Sotha

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:26 PM

Anyway do you come up with other reasons why people give up their work apart the ususal ones (found in every mod community)? Reasons that ties with TDM/DR itself? Like nbohr1mores thoughts about VPs?!
And IF so, is there something that can be done about it to see less FM abandoned because of that reasons?


The wiki has info on VP's. The A-Z tutorial has info about VP's. That particular problem is sidestepped by READING the instructions.

If a map is done first and the instructions are read later, the FM is doomed to fail, unless some really lucky modifications are still possible. All engines require that the fundamental important basic things are understood at least on some level.


That some people claim again and again "oh just another room heist seen hundred times in Thief FMs" or that they won't play TDM for the lack of some "huge abitious killer missions" (see "ttlg stuck in the past" thread among others) won't motivate some new mappers doing a simple room heist or something resaonable ambitioned like Melan's latest FM speed build. Personally the one FM I do replay most is Too Late. So it will not detain myself...


Yeah. That is sad. My personal belief is that we don't need those guys. That kind of attitude is not fruitful: you cannot make a huge killer mission as your first FM. You need to start small. And there is no idea to see the trouble creating the small mission if is not appreciated by the community and no one would play it because they want HUGE missions.

Here is my view:
Small/medium missions are king! That's why I as a mapper aim at that category: it is very doable. It rewards you quickly with success. If you make a mistake, no worries: there isn't much to redesign. You can make several small missions and link them to have an overarching story plot: a plot more interesting than a plot in a single huge FM. And the plot can be controlled naturally, without the need to force the player to do key hunts.

The player can easily pick up a nice small missions and sneak away. Normal people have only a few hours of free time in a day and small missions are just perfect entertainment for that time. Guards spotted you? No matter, the mission is reasonably short and you can still manage to the end even when the guards are alert. Equipment can also be used without worrying too much. Map loading times are short and small missions have better performance. There is less punishment for playing the mission ironman (without saving), it makes things more interesting as you have to cope with failures.

I usually play huge missions only once. I don't have time nor the interest to experience them again. Small missions on the other hand are just perfect for nice sneaking evening and I play then repeatably. Trapped! is the mission which I've completed many times with different approaches. One of my favourites.

Recently, I've thought a lot of increasing the small mission playability with small random elements. So that a person could play a small/medium mission twice in a row and still get an interestingly different experience. The guards would have a few different paths which would be randomized upon map start. Maybe the mission critical objects could spawn in a different but logical locations. Maybe there were 5 entrances to the location, but three of them would be randomly sealed upon map start.

Such a mission would offer high replay value as the mission could be surprising even for it's original author!

But now I got carried away. Main point:

New mappers! Start small! A mission does not need to be huge for it to be excellent!
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#39 Shadowhide

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:35 PM

Small/medium missions are king!


you wrong,most honored missions are big

Calendra Legacy or Night in Rocksbourg is good example


Proceed with caution!

#40 Melan

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 03:37 PM

Yeah. That is sad. My personal belief is that we don't need those guys. That kind of attitude is not fruitful: you cannot make a huge killer mission as your first FM.

There is my great failure: I failed to fail at my huge killer first mission! :laugh:
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#41 Bikerdude

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Posted 01 May 2011 - 05:56 PM

:laugh: big head much...

#42 gnartsch

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 07:40 AM

I think there are 2 missions that need to be updated in the Download area :

Betrayal - by FieldMedic
http://www.mindplace...tails.php?id=29
There are 2 mirrors. The one provided by Fidcal gives you v1.0, whereas the Bloodgate mirror gives v1.1
The in-game updater also gives you only v1.0 of the mission.
(see the initial post for the mission with the update here)

St Albans Cathedral - by Bikerdude
http://www.mindplace...tails.php?id=35
It is availlable in v1.6 already for quite a while, but all links give only 1.42
(see the announcement here)

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this - but I could not find a better place elsewhere.

#43 Tels

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 09:23 AM

I think there are 2 missions that need to be updated in the Download area :

Betrayal - by FieldMedic
http://www.mindplace...tails.php?id=29
There are 2 mirrors. The one provided by Fidcal gives you v1.0, whereas the Bloodgate mirror gives v1.1
The in-game updater also gives you only v1.0 of the mission.
(see the initial post for the mission with the update here)

St Albans Cathedral - by Bikerdude
http://www.mindplace...tails.php?id=35
It is availlable in v1.6 already for quite a while, but all links give only 1.42
(see the announcement here)

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this - but I could not find a better place elsewhere.


Thanx! I have uploaed STAC v1.6 to bloodgate as http://bloodgate.com/fms/stac160.pk4 Can't do anything about the other mirrors, tho.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

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#44 greebo

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 11:13 AM

I think there are 2 missions that need to be updated in the Download area :

Betrayal - by FieldMedic
http://www.mindplace...tails.php?id=29
There are 2 mirrors. The one provided by Fidcal gives you v1.0, whereas the Bloodgate mirror gives v1.1
The in-game updater also gives you only v1.0 of the mission.
(see the initial post for the mission with the update here)

St Albans Cathedral - by Bikerdude
http://www.mindplace...tails.php?id=35
It is availlable in v1.6 already for quite a while, but all links give only 1.42
(see the announcement here)

I am not sure if this is the right place to post this - but I could not find a better place elsewhere.

I've updated the most recent versions to fidcal.com, so the game should fetch the right PK4s now (in a few minutes, that is). I'll mark St. Alban's as update (and remove the "142" part from its PK4 name - that was a bit unfortunate to use that one as "internal name", so people might get that download suggested again in the downloader).

Generally, it'd be nice if mission authors themselves could give me a heads up if the wrong version is available at thedarkmod.com - that's the version peple will receive through the in-game downloader.

#45 Bikerdude

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 01:54 PM

Generally, it'd be nice if mission authors themselves could give me a heads up if the wrong version is available at thedarkmod.com - that's the version peple will receive through the in-game downloader.

Ah oops will do.

On a side note, might be worth putting/adding this to the howto release a mission thread

#46 jaxa

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Posted 07 May 2011 - 04:40 PM

I had never seen this Dram slideshow: http://www256.pair.c...eart manor.html

XXL indeed. How did the mission grow to have palm trees? Just legendary.

#47 fllood

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 03:46 PM

I had never seen this Dram slideshow: http://www256.pair.c...rt%20manor.html
XXL indeed.

Is there any update news of the status of Blackheart Manor? Is it still worked on?
The classic Thief style intro made me speechless. Just awesome in the best meaning :wub:
"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

#48 Fidcal

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 03:53 PM

It's on hold at the moment but it's not abandoned. It will be completed eventually. :) My best estimate at the moment is probably between next Christmas and the Christmas after.

#49 fllood

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 04:08 PM

It's on hold at the moment but it's not abandoned. It will be completed eventually. :) My best estimate at the moment is probably between next Christmas and the Christmas after.

Very glad to hear! - thanks for the info update Fidcal. :)
"To rush is without doubt the most important enemy of joy" ~ Thieves Saying

#50 Sotha

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Posted 05 June 2011 - 01:56 AM

Upcoming mission info:

The mission I'm working on now is slowly (oh, so slowly) taking shape.

It will be an Ulysses-mission, based in a place called Tanner's Ward in the city of Bridgeport.

Ulysses is a deeply religious master assassin who works for the Builder's Church. "With God Himself on our side, even the acts most terrible are possible, all in the name of holiness, decency, righteousness and justice."

Mission name will be 'Blasphemous Conspiracy.'

Release time: not a clue, let's see. Probably before the end of this year.

Special: I'll probably need some help with this. More accurate knowledge about Builder dogma is certainly needed. Also some common builder holy writings should be probably lying around.
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