Doom III Thief Co-op in development

[Midnight]

Sorry if this has been posted before, I know some of you are already aware of this but I couldn't see a thread dedicated to it. I've only just come across this project called Thievious thanks to a post by clearing at TTLG. Although I was doubtful at first (inspired by TDS??) I was suitably impressed at the in-game videos and the potential that this could have, although the title of the mod sounds a little silly so I've suggested 'Thieves' would make a better name for a co-op Thief game.

 

Now, I know that the TDM team aren't considering any multiplayer development, and most TDM fans (myself included) are primarily interested in a single player experience, but co-op would be a worthwhile addition to TDM gameplay since thieves would often (in the real world and in this universe) collaborate and are not always the lone wolf characters that most of us associate with Thief.

 

I would hate to see this co-op project fail to progress because it's just a one man tech demo at the moment with no real support, and at the same time, it would be disappointing if it were to be completed, only to have one or two playable maps.

My question then is, does the team agree that it would be mutually beneficial for Thievious and TDM if this project were taken under your wing, so to speak, so that if it were eventually completed it could benefit from being able to play TDM missions (some of which would presumably need to be modified for co-op support)? Ideally, what would be great is if at some point in the future, you could launch TDM missions from within the launcher in co-op mode, which would use the multiplayer work demonstrated in the Thievious project videos.

 

More than anything, the reason I suggest this is that I hate seeing resources duplicated in different projects, when sharing those resources could speed up the development of both. I imagine that if Nightblade had been undertaken in Doom III it might still be around because they could have shared some of the resource and development work that went into TDM.

[New Horizon]

I've already had some communication with the author of this project.

 

Multi-player isn't likely to be something we would add to the main branch, as our active team members have their hands full maintaining our single player branch. If the author of this mod is interested in creating a branch of TDM and producing his mod that way, we would likely be open to discussion in that matter.

 

Resources could be shared, and if his branch is kept in sync with ours...then perhaps maps could even be shared with some tweaking.

 

It's up to him to contact us and set things in motion though, we're in no position right now to even consider taking on something like this as an official part of TDM.

 

 

Judging by the early videos though, he's looking to create something more akin to TDS, so it may be that the two projects aren't an ideal match. We'll see if anything comes of it.

[demagogue]

I paste my post from the TTLG ThiefGen thread on this:

 

The Dark Mod guys (well, NH) have already posted there, but I'm not sure if the guy appreciates that TDM is 5 years (*~15 guys = 75-man-years) ahead of him in development. He's talking as if he can take a few bits from TDM and throw him into his thing, when I think the better approach would be to take TDM as a base and build a branch MP-version off of it, *especially* if it's just him working by himself (he should recruit more of a team, while he's at it). But no doubt a MP Dark Mod-esque mod would be a cool thing to have, so somebody should work on it.

 

Now that you (NH) mention it though, the guy did have a pretty strong pro-TDS vision. So maybe he wouldn't want so much overlap. Well, like you say, we'll see if anything comes of it, anyway. It's his thing so the ball is in his court.

[Midnight]

Resources could be shared, and if his branch is kept in sync with ours...then perhaps maps could even be shared with some tweaking.

 

If that's possible (that different branches can be kept in sync) then that would certainly make it easier to have missions that could be played in both. The T2 multiplayer patch has shown how many single player missions can translate to co-op quite easily (surprisingly), but there have also been many that would need some tweaking, or might not be suitable at all (Embracing the Enemy comes to mind).

 

Not that I'm accusing anyone of this, but I think it would be premature to dismiss this being a suitable companion project for TDM purely because it is inspired by TDS. The third person view he used in his videos is a little worrying, but if this were to become a MP branch, then it isn't like we'd see the removal of rope arrows, swimmable water etc, and instead, the gameplay would naturally be more like TDM than TDS.

 

I just hope that he doesn't feel that TDM isn't a suitable base to build from and would rather recreate TDS from the ground up. If so, I very much doubt it would ever see completion if the success rate of most mods is anything to go by. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

 

 

 

[New Horizon]

Not that I'm accusing anyone of this, but I think it would be premature to dismiss this being a suitable companion project for TDM purely because it is inspired by TDS. The third person view he used in his videos is a little worrying, but if this were to become a MP branch, then it isn't like we'd see the removal of rope arrows, swimmable water etc, and instead, the gameplay would naturally be more like TDM than TDS.

 

Nobody has dismissed anything. It's simply up to him to make the decision about what he wants to do. I already told him he could come and talk to us, and I restated it in a post on D3world today.

 

If a separate branch were to remain in sync, he would be the one doing the work...not us.

 

In terms of his mod being inspired by TDS, well...if he wants it to be a TDS inspired Mod, then the visual style of TDM probably won't appeal to him.

 

Like I said, the offer is on the table but it's his decision. We're not going to actively offer to increase our workload when we're already short handed.

[Midnight]

In terms of his mod being inspired by TDS, well...if he wants it to be a TDS inspired Mod, then the visual style of TDM probably won't appeal to him.

 

Ah, I see your point. Then again, I like the visual style of all the thief games so they're not necessarily mutually exclusive (it was the physics that killed TDS for me, amongst other things ).

Edited April 2, 2010 by Midnight

[Serpentine]

I saw his work, while his style is a bit too bold and showy for my liking(shader abuse), if he were going to play in doing a MP-Thiefesque mod it would be nice to have it branched off from TDM while he makes the changes needed (should they not intersect with TDM), once the changes are made and he is happy we could look into syncing the branch and in that way keep TDM offering SP but also MP content. While missions could be SP only allowing authors to make MP maps might be interesting on some level - I am all for offering content creators the option to do what they want, after all without them you are stranded without content! giving them thing which interest them or allowing people that dont want to make SP content the ability to even if not 100% dedicated does open "interesting" avenues.

 

But all in all the ball's in his court and I think he's just trying to experiment and avoid sharing attribution even if it means the project never reaches its full potential (I am a terrible, harsh person but thats my opinion)

[Springheel]

I think he's just trying to experiment and avoid sharing attribution even if it means the project never reaches its full potential

 

+1

[demagogue]

In terms of his mod being inspired by TDS, well...if he wants it to be a TDS inspired Mod, then the visual style of TDM probably won't appeal to him.

 

Ah, I see your point. Then again, I like the visual style of all the thief games so they're not necessarily mutually exclusive (it was the physics that killed TDS for me, amongst other things Posted Image).

 

Not just the visual style, though. This guy may have all sorts of opinions about the gameplay and tons of little mechanics he wants for his mod, and if he wants to build off Dark Mod he may feel he has to compromise on a ton of things to use it... And since people usually going into making mods to see their own vision come to life and have strong opinions about it, it's a good question to ask how much do they want to inherit and how much do they want something to be their own.

 

But then again, all big projects involve those kinds of questions; an individual can't do everything alone, and if it's a shared or team project there're other people's ideas you have to work with. I think Dark Mod was very lucky in having such great talent, shared-vision, and flexibility all coming together to see it through to release.

 

Edit: The above 2 posts ninja-slipped in there... Same punch-line as what I just said, really (I think I gave the more positive spin on it, though.)

[Midnight]

But all in all the ball's in his court and I think he's just trying to experiment and avoid sharing attribution even if it means the project never reaches its full potential (I am a terrible, harsh person but thats my opinion)

 

Yes, this is my main concern about this. Some people would rather not see a project to completion if it means they lose full credit. Not saying that's the case here, but we'll have to wait and see. I've sent him a message to spur him on if he's serious about this.

[Neb]

 

Although I was doubtful at first (inspired by TDS??) I was suitably impressed at the in-game videos and the potential that this could have, [...]

 

There's nothing to it. It's a pretty castle with sliding doors that is tastelessly drenched in visual effects.

 

 

I'd have to see a basic stealth mechanic prototype in even a badly made box-room before being impressed.

 

[/sceptic] 

 

It's way too early to have any idea as to where this will go. So far there are only hints of intentions.

 

 

[New Horizon]

Well, it turns out he's not interested in sharing TDM code. He's strictly interested in a Deadly Shadows inspired Thief MP.

 

It's pretty much what I thought.

[Midnight]

I'd have to see a basic stealth mechanic prototype in even a badly made box-room before being impressed.

 

I was mainly impressed with the character animations, which are usually quite difficult and they appeared smooth, but thinking about it now, he was probably just using stock Doom III animations.

 

Well, it turns out he's not interested in sharing TDM code. He's strictly interested in a Deadly Shadows inspired Thief MP.

 

It's pretty much what I thought.

Oh well, his loss I would say. I can't see his mod succeeding if he takes the "I can do it all myself" attitude. Hopefully we'll see co-op in TDM someday, but it's going to take a couple people who are passionate about TDM for it to succeed.

 

 

[New Horizon]

....he was probably just using stock Doom III animations.

 

Yup, pretty much. From what he has said, I gather that most of the code has been borrowed from other Doom 3 mods.

 

Unless he can get a team together, I don't see this really working. Clearly he didn't see the immediate benefit of creating a branch and having the potential benefit of being compatible with existing TDM maps.

[Bikerdude]

it would be great if resources could be used by either team...

[New Horizon]

it would be great if resources could be used by either team...

 

There is really not much we can swap at this point. TDM is essentially a 95% completed mod...the 5% left being tweaking, additions and improvements here and there. He really doesn't have anything to swap with us. We could have offered him an entire branch of the mod to work with, but that's not what he wants to do. Can't force something like this. If it wasn't meant to be, it wasn't meant to be.

[7upMan]

Excuse me, guys, am I the only one who noticed that this guy's mod has SOFT-SHADOWS?!? I sent him a PM to ask him if he would share his shader or at least tell me how he incorporated this. After all, right after JCDenton's HDR implementation this would be a tremendous boost in visuals. Anyway, I'm waiting for his answer, hoping for the best.

[Springheel]

There is a soft-shadow mod for D3. It has a massive FPS hit, however, and doesn't really look much better than hard shadows (IMO).

[Berny]

oh yeah, soft shadows would be very nice!

[7upMan]

There is a soft-shadow mod for D3.  It has a massive FPS hit, however, and doesn't really look much better than hard shadows (IMO).

 

So, can you give me the mod's name? I'd like to try it out for myself. After all, the graphics cards get faster and faster every generation, so on a Radeon HD5k things might look a little different, performance-wise.

[Springheel]

It's been discussed here before, so you can try a search. I don't know it off-hand.

[Midnight]

It's been discussed here before, so you can try a search. I don't know it off-hand.

 

I believe you can find information about what he's using at this link. I see there's an update to the mod, can't say I like the idea of a Magic Gem Mace:

 

Not very thief-like.

[Springheel]

can't say I like the idea of a Magic Gem Mace

 

It's just using the flashlight animation, and replacing the flashlight with a mace.

[stumpy]

um, evil source engine, according to a valve employer the source engine for hl2 is idtech15 and left for dead 2 its idtech17.

[Tels]

I am not registered on doomworld so I cannot answer him (the guys seems to be a German, too, I see a pattern here )

 

Anyway he said:

 

... Thievious' progress is mainly driven by my very own, strong ambition to create a Thief:DS COOP experience, so while I very much appreciate the offer of the TDM team, I think that branching out based on a TDM code base is very unlikely to happen unless 2 or 3 capable & dedicated coders jump right in, willing to dedicate their time and skill into this project.

 

I think this is backwards. If you branch out the TDM code-base, all you need to is add the "coop" bits. There is a mod you used, I am pretty sure we could fold that into TDM and get 80% there (just like Thievious already is in that short timeframe). You bring the dedication, the skill and the desire, we bring the TDM code base knowledge and support you whenever possible (like integrating the two code bases e.g. the coop part inot our own).

 

If you don't branch out the TDM code base, all you got is D3, a couple mods (that get you 80% there coop wise, but 10% there for the rest) and all the rest is - missing. One wouldn't be able to use TDM assets (except some sounds, maybe models and textures and even then they would not fit into the rest of the world), because they have modified code support, modified physics and defs, modified material shaders, modified animations and so on. You also wouldn't be able to use TDM code, as it would simple not fit, and none of our code is made to be "pluggable" - e.g. you cannot plug it out of TDM and replug it into your code base, since our code is all tightly integrated (by accident, not nec. by design). So you still need to design/code/write a menu, take care of internationalization, GUI code, get swimmable water, an updater mechanism, rope arrows and the rest to work, extinguishable lights/fire, the light gem code and so on. Not to mention the (hugely complex) AI code and the modifications to D3 to allow the AI to pathfind etc. (The AI code might be one part that could be ripped out as it is relatively new and I think quite self-contained, but even then, that is quite a bit of work).

 

And even _if_ you are able to re-use TDM assets, who is gonna integrate them into your work? In case #1, we would help, because it not that a huge effort and is in our interest, even tho we really have not much manpower. In case #2, however, we have no interest and it is a huge effort, so I am pretty sure in this case our help would consist of only a link to the download page (because we have little manpower and would surely work on our mod first).

 

We have had already a few cases were we integrated other work into our mod (the water mod, rope arrows, rebbs new interaction shaders, the rotoscope shader, and now the new, huge HDR effort by J.C. Denton), so we have experience with this and all cases so far have worked out very good. The reason is because it is easier to take a 90% complete game (TDM is no longer just a mod, it is really a new game) and plug another mod/effect/feature set into it, then to rewrite everything from scratch just to end up with 90% of the new game being the same as the old game.

 

So, please reconsider branching out from TDM