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Thief revisited and compared


Fidcal

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I have notes in preparation to file on tracker for various such problems but I usually get asked for a test map. How can I make a test map for these problems? (that is a rheotorical question btw. :laugh: )

 

Back on topic...

 

Frankly I'm mighty impressed with the visuals in this FM and the plants seem better than ours, especially close up where we cannot have soft edges. Thief 2 provides variable transparency.

 

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As you speak about objects I have to add some notes about existing patches for the Thief1&2 games. There is a pretty cool 'Enhancement Patch' for most the loot, tables and stuff! I´ll add a screenshot or two. They look really beautiful!!

 

The bad thing is, I´m still waiting for my Activation code at the TTLG forums, so I can´t use the search function there for the threads and links for this patches. If you want I could make a new thread and list all patches I have with the names of the creators, but I won´t be able to show working links...

 

There is a Ntex Texture Update for Thief 2, the thirst screenshot will show some new textures (they replacing the default game textures) in the first mission!

 

And I´m using 'Ultimate Difficulty' for both Thief´s which adds a new gamesys (so won´t be working in most FMs) so guards act more realistic. I could add the readme for more specific info.

 

I assume you guys don´t know about this patches, If you do, I´m sorry!;)

 

Note: I used this RIOT plugin in IrfanView, so each file should be only 65 kb and still looking good, pretty cool...

And finally you can see what I mean with reduced LightGem!:)

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Edited by LEGION

-> Crisis of Capitalism

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still pretty nice pics from the good old thief 2, but I just cant see the stupid gas lamp anymore ;)

 

 

Yeah, the plants look nice, but I thinks thats a matter of time when TDM has better ones ;)

 

wow, the Ntex Texture Update is pretty cool!

 

 

 

Edited by Berny
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The problem with foliage in Dark Mod is that it is always going to be a texture on a transparent sheet and Doom3 does not do gradient transparency so cannot soften the edges.

 

yeah, noticed that. my mansion walls are littered with ivy decal patches. one of the the other big pains about the transparent sheet is it seems that other patches do not show through behind the transparent part of it (in DR), so if you have 5 different foliage patches stacked on top of eachother, in DR you only see 1, but you can see all the brushes behind it through the transparent texture. kind of a confusing pain. and the edges really look not so good when you get up close in game sad.gif

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Perhaps it would be a good idea to re-create the entire set of official Thief 1 and Thief 2 missions in Dark Mod, with complete fidelity to dimensions, texture, ambience, objects, NPCs etc. In this case it would be possible to really compare the two and to see if the feel of the original games translates into Dark Mod.

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I guess you might all know about this but, speaking of "foliage", early on, while playing through Fidcal & Baddcog's "Heart Of Lone Salvation", there was a tree that if I moved my character around while keeping my eyes focused on its "foliage" the thing would evince a sort of kaleidoscope effect. Where parts of it seemed to spin opposite or at different rates than other parts.

 

Really trippy.

 

A little immersion breaking at first, but really trippy. And in the end... the love you...er I mean and in the end, really trippy.

 

Probably happens all the time and I've just taken too many real trips and so fried my brain that I hadn't noticed before?

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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Perhaps it would be a good idea to re-create the entire set of official Thief 1 and Thief 2 missions in Dark Mod, with complete fidelity to dimensions, texture, ambience, objects, NPCs etc. In this case it would be possible to really compare the two and to see if the feel of the original games translates into Dark Mod.

 

As we've stated many times, and I am about to re-state...recreating Thief in TDM would be illegal. We can't support any missions like that, nor do we endorse it.

 

In any case, TDM is not supposed to be an 'exact' recreation of Thief. TDM is inspired by Thief, and while it's clearly related it still has to stand on its own feet.

 

Why rehash what has already been done? Spend time on new missions.

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Why rehash what has already been done? Spend time on new missions.

 

You know, I find my self in agreement here (hear hear, here).

 

For one thing I cannot bring myself to retrace steps I've already made. Won't play newly-styled Guybrush doing old-school stories, no matter how fondly I remember those original days. The effort is wasted on me even if there is a little bonus material. I know what's behind that door; I know where the chalice is; I know what that scroll reveals... it saps the very adventure of the adventure -- it is of no use to me.

 

And, secondly (and I just might have said something to this effect previously): there is positively, absolutely, naymisdisinconspicuously no doubt that TDM translates and transcends the feel of Thief. :D

Edited by aidakeeley

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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couldn't you do gradiant transparencies in a art program then doom3 just renders that image.

No, doom3 doesn't render the gradient; it only renders to a fixed point in the gradient determined by a setting in the material definition.

 

The only art gradient transparency that is effective is black for eg, torch smut, grime in corners etc. but that works a different way.

 

Imported models can have gradient textures but they cannot have a workable gradient transparency.

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Even so, it's not quite bad - the way the foliage worked in Heart of Lone Salvation to obscure vision was quite impressive even if individual leaves weren't graphically perfect.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Actually you can use alpha blended transparency in id Tech 4. The problem however is that when you do so it skips the interaction shader so the surface will be full bright and unaffected by lights and shadow.

 

For those curious the material stage keyword of interest is blend with a parameter of blend. Yes that's "blend blend".

 

You can get around the illumination problem by using the RGB keyword in your material shader to darken the texture. And if you feed it a shader parameter you can change it on a per-entity basis. Couple that with a script object, and a few targeted lights and you could approximate the illumination value much like the way global ambient lighting is faked for all the existing dark mod textures.

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Um... can someone do me (and all of us) a favor and assure the people who are apparently being criticized strongly for making difficult missions that they are not to be discouraged?

 

I took a bit of an interest into looking into the mission that Fidcal started this thread with and found the thread over at ttlg was hot with bitching and such. I skimmed (so as not to be spoiled) lightly and see much hostility. And I see it's even affected "Queue" who is thinking of trashing his likewise difficult mission rather than deal with the hostility...

 

Maybe the mission in original question is justifiably being criticized for being one of those what-way-too-abstruse-conception-am-I-dealing creations of the designer? This does, of course, happen. Especially with adventure/puzzlers... but it should not call for the end of such endeavors!

 

So, I'd like to know it really is too particular or whatever.

 

But, more so, I'd like anyandeveryone who does try and make something puzzling and challenging to know that it is very much appreciated. For me, I'd rather have 3 or 4 of these takes-a-week-or-even-longer, multi-session, think-about-it-offline missions to play than a slew of of 50 (or, to be honest even 1) god-damned zombie/crypt fright-fest tomb-dashers.

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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@rich_is_bored: Agreed (and why I used terms liked 'effective' and 'workable' to save my post getting too lengthy. ;)) Also relating to this is my thread about creating graded texture model templates and the same with a non-rendered texture (which didn't work for the same reasons you described.) I wonder if this limitation will be solvable in the original source when it goes open.

 

@ aidakeeley: BIG question I have contemplated for several years! So sorry, but it needs a big answer! When I produced The Night Watch (Thief 2 4-mission campaign) I was convinced that while it had lots of things to 'work out' it was not too difficult and had sufficient clues etc so it was 'do-able'.

 

This way of thinking arose for two reasons: I had played many FMs that were boring (endless cloned bedrooms with bed, wardrobe, chest and lots of empty spaces to run through.) I had played other FMs that were rich in puzzles and interest but totally frustrating because there was no possible way to know what to do. I recall one FM where you had to dive down a well and retrieve a stone and bring it up and place it at the side of the well and it triggered something. No clue so why would you do that?

 

Back to my campaign: I was shocked when beta testers found it very difficult and frustrating. Much of this was because of my thinking outside the box and presenting original tasks that the player had not come across before. Also, I tend to present problems that need solving how I would expect you to behave in real life rather than some established Thief routine.

 

So to a great extent I dumbed it down and added a great many more clues, including a complete player notes system that popped up to summarise what to do on critical issues. I retained roughly my original concept in one difficulty level I named 'Director's Cut' while the others were scaled up to Hard and Expert. I should add that I had quite a few 'fights' with my excellent and experienced beta testers and refused to change some things.

 

Even so, many players found it too difficult and I suspect many gave up - while others said it was great - even the best they had ever played! Yet if you browse the four main Nightwatch threads at ttlg in every case where someone got stuck I pointed to a clue which, if they had read it properly they would know what to do. In many cases this was supplemented further by a popup summary what to do.

 

Back to the subject King's Story FM. I have not finished this yet because of performance issues and my difficulty in getting Thief to run on my fast machine so I can only go on what I have seen so far and read comments from others. Also I stopped reading that thread because of spoilers. The FM seems to me to be excellent - probably a classic - but needed some modifications and clues to make it perfect. Indeed, it is indication of how good it is that many players (including myself) persevered through frustrations. I wrote my review of Part 1 of that FM in the review thread. I wish I had beta tested that FM; I would probably have strongly encouraged the author to modify some things.

 

So again, back to the central question I have contemplated since Night Watch. It is clear that even if you include good clues that many players will not study them. Should we make such difficult, complex FMs that will delight some players but frustrate others? Or should our aim be to entertain like a movie where every 'player' both enjoys it and is guaranteed to finish?

 

I recall that one of my arguments to counter my beta testers was 'but that is how I want it to be' meaning, I am the author and this is what I am making. If some players don't like this type of game then too bad. Which was countered with 'but then fewer people will enjoy your FM.' In my arrogance I felt a bit like Shakespeare being told to write pulp fiction so it was more accessible to the masses.

 

So, now really every mapper has this problem. And it is amplified in larger FMs. This is because in a small FM there might be two or three only moderately difficult tasks. Most players will solve them and be happy. A few will fail one of them and ask for help and not mind too much. In a big FM there might be 20 moderately difficult tasks. Very few players will get them all. If you get 17 of them that means you get stuck three times. If you only get half then you will be very frustrated and probably give up.

 

My view is that you have to make the FM that *you* want to make but if it is complex or difficult then you should provide ample clues, often more than one for the same thing, especially on mission critical tasks.

 

I also have another idea I am developing to provide extra help in game - but at a cost. The idea is that if someone is getting stuck they will be encouraged to keep trying up to a certain point and then they can draw on the extra info. In this way they can remain immersed and not have to break off and wait hours or even days for a solution from a forum.

 

Finally, to answer your actual question (:)) yes, difficult and complex FMs should not be discouraged but should contain reasonable clues and strive to avoid unnecessary frustration. Try to include alternate solutions where possible. Also avoid having to search very large areas for something - especially when you don't know what it is or even if it exists! Searching one room for a lever or switch that you know is there is OK imo.

 

Also keep in mind that a mapper can spend months even years producing an FM and it is only usually in the public eye for a few days or weeks then fades away (why do we do it!) So give him a bit of respect that at least he tried. Telling him his four years work is banal, stupid, irritating, the worst piece of *!!* that ever was made, is not encouraging him to try again. From the other side, the mapper must listen to criticism and not insult a player who has spent an hour or more running around getting more and more irritated.

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It is clear that even if you include good clues that many players will not study them. Should we make such difficult, complex FMs that will delight some players but frustrate others? Or should our aim be to entertain like a movie where every 'player' both enjoys it and is guaranteed to finish?

 

You've thankfully and correctly answered your own question, Fidcal:

 

My view is that you have to make the FM that *you* want to make

 

All I can add as a player is that... you want to make 'em? ...I want to play em. It's what's great about the whole FM thing and the really tremendous potential I see in TDM! In general, I much prefer "adventure" games as a rule in all my gaming gamermanshiphood being. So, naturally, I love the FMs that "play" to this type of audience. Do not dumb them down. Do give them an extra-good beta-testing. Maybe allow for the extra time such mission's beta-testing need to get the kind feed back you understand they need (eg. & ie. you wish you had been able to BT the one this thread is based on). It may take a different mindset to create these kinds of missions and it may take a different mindset to have the patience to allow for the extended BT phase -- it's got to be hard to have created something and then wait very long to get it out while the BTers work through (eg me! I didn't want to rush through you excellent mission; and I also didn't want to be responsible for holding up the release either; so I wasn't too much use as a BT because I only reported back the once before it was released.)

 

Anyway, I'd rather never see another wonderful FM creator waste another minute of FM creation on the aforementioned "horror" missions... but I know many, many, many players love them. So, que sera, 'kay, Sarah.

 

Absolutely make the missions you all want to make!

 

You aren't employed by Globocorp. You aren't under contract with Columbia Records. You aren't duty bound by Blackwater.

 

You aren't meant to be working at all.

 

As with anything that's going to be good -- and anything in any genre in any medium can be good or great -- the creator has to love what they are doing first and foremost.

 

...

 

PS:

Since we are discussing this, can I ask if anyone remembers a lady FM author who this reminiscing evokes? I believe she might have been from Germany (or somewhere in Northern Europe)? She was quite a force for a while there before I slipped away a few years back. If I say lots of cakes and cookies and gingerbreadmenlike things?

 

I may be staring her right in the face. Since coming back from my slipping away, I only bounce in and out of these forums. I don't think I am though, nor do I recall seeing/hearing from her over at ttlg, short as my stay there was...

"A Rhapsody Of Feigned And Ill-Invented Nonsense" - Thomas Aikenhead, On Theology, ca. 1696

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My view is that you have to make the FM that *you* want to make but if it is complex or difficult then you should provide ample clues, often more than one for the same thing, especially on mission critical tasks.

 

yeah - that's more than true

 

 

 

 

 

I was stuck several times at your map. But in the end I can say that it was definitely the best DTM fm. My big problem is, that I browse over text when it gets too long. Sometimes it's definitely interesting, but playing is more fun than reading. Compared with the fact that I don't understand everything (It's not my mother language) I miss some important facts.

 

When the player searched the map just for everything (not for clues) and gives up cause he missed a clue and read in a forum for help, so he finds out that clues are more important, so he has to read all the text of the whole map or go through the whole map again.

 

The Problem on most maps is that it's not important to read very well. It would be nice if the mapper of difficult maps would write a few words how the player should go through this map. 

 

 

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  • 4 months later...

I now have Thief 2 working in Vista and started to play the 'When Still' (WS) campaign. Visually it is both inspiring but also makes me disillusioned about my own Dark Mod FM. WS is pure Bafford style but with better textures and design. These screenshots are near the start so no spoilers. The start garden appears to have texture blending - almost certainly custom textures, the tree, vines, the lighting are wonderful. Inside I am stunned. I think we expect Thief to look crap. It doesn't. Believe me, it doesn't. Yes, it doesn't have the patch curves, (potentially) fine detailed texture, and above all, the AI that we have but it still stops me in my tracks to gape in wonder.

 

The kitchen is glorious. The furniture and crockery etc more convincingly medieval than I think we have. Still see some of the design errors like the door arch and window cut badly into the surrounding stone but I can overlook that.

 

Perhaps its mainly the design and this guy is just far better than I am. Like Bafford manor, the rooms and connecting areas are not all horrible rectangles and on different levels. Maybe it's not too late and I can modify my Tudor manor somewhat under the influence of this masterpiece. I think this quality of art transcends the limits of the pallette. Maybe I need to take a master class then.

 

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Eternauta's FM is very inspiring, and it brings me to a point I have already made a few times: design transcends technology.

 

Nonetheless, I also think the same design effort would produce better-looking results in TDM. Even standardish architecture looks better if it is normalmapped with 1024x1024 textures and high-poly models. And Fidcal, you have nothing to be afraid of based on the work you have done.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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Yes I've been going back and playing some Thief FMs after a lot of Dark Modding recently too, and have been (re-)amazed at a lot of things I've seen. The main 2 sticking points that can get to me while playing are the annoying mantling and the AI & objects are so low-poly it makes it hard to suspend disbelief. But the environments are still great (when textures & lighting work you don't notice the polys) and the gameplay is still great. As a mapper, I like working with DR over dromed, and especially like the ease of scripting & doing custom stuff generally (modifying .def files, getting custom sounds, objects, and textures in, etc), but that's different from how the map turns out.

 

I'm actually quite happy that Thief & Dark Mod are both standing as great games with their own flavors. I was never that sympathetic with people saying Dark Mod would be the death of Thief FM'ing or that Dark Mod will never capture the Thief essence or whatever... Now I sort of think about it like the American-football vs rugby debate, where you also see people claiming the they love one and get turned off from the other... If you like one you should like the other (you have no good excuse not to) because it's variations on the same gameplay well executed; don't let the differences turn you off to what's special and fun about each game.

What do you see when you turn out the light? I can't tell you but I know that it's mine.

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Nice pictures and impressive work when considering the old engine.

 

Good old T2 has been pushed to the limit there, but modern TDM will easily beat it in terms of graphics. I won't compare gameplay, since these are different games.

 

I'm pretty sure that on some point those heroic T1&2 mappers will try out DR, be delighted and create even more beautiful masterpieces using modern technology.

 

The winning side for T1&2 is low machine specs, it plays wonderfully on almost any machine, while TDM is annoyingly choppy for low enders.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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