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#1176 demagogue

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:01 AM

What is this SFX? Also as an active developer, any chance to get the key suggestions to be implemented that were asked for? Like using FROB to close a document in the world or using HOLSTER again to pull out the last weapon?


Still not past the denial stage of loss, are you?

Edit: Ok, I'll be constructive. The reasoning given above for why it's unlikely these will be implemented tied into core design elements of the game, the UI-philosophy and a weapon-inventory system that has pretty deep roots (and is nothing like Skyrim). Two things you should get used to are that (1) most features suggested don't get implemented, not just because of petty disagreement but design ideas that have deep roots, it's just that most people stop insisting they repeat the reasons after the 20th time; and (2) if you do want to argue in favor of a feature, a great argument is in terms of that core design philosophy that's been developed, first over the last 16 years of Thief OMs and FMs, and 2nd over untold 1000s of posts in this forum over the last 9 years -- I mean in terms of the design ideas that are central to how and why TDM was developed as a stealth game -- and a less persuasive argument is your personal idea of fun or logic developed over the first 30 minutes of playing the game that seems oblivious to those 16 years or untold 1000s of posts.

I'll give an example. A core design principle is minimalist UI with a simple "world" and "inventory" separation (in terms of frobables) and separate UI control over each domain to explicitly reverse what was considered a flaw in T2's design (shared frob control), which over time the player absorbs the logic of, ultimately improving their control and immersing them within the game. It's an important design principle, and if one would like to change it, they should talk about the design philosophy behind it, since it comes as a package.

Of course it's good for people to talk about features they'd like and get new ideas flowing, but the reasons for decisions here make sense in terms of a very carefully thought-out way of thinking about the design, and people should always keep the big picture in mind. I've always admired how consistent and thoughtful the design thinking has been around here, including the reasons already given against those two features, which to me sounded perfectly consistent with the big picture design philosophy it has going.
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#1177 wesp5

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 09:30 AM

Still not past the denial stage of loss, are you?


Well, I didn't really get an answer other than "We always did it like that, so deal with it!". Looking at the blackjacking thread shows that indeed sometimes suggestions of us newbies could be used to improve the game, although most of you old timers here just don't want to change anything and assume everything is perfect because you are accustomed to it. In that case just remove this thread and stop working on TDM ;)!

A core design principle is minimalist UI with a simple "world" and "inventory" separation (in terms of frobables) and separate UI control over each domain to explicitly reverse what was considered a flaw in T2's design (shared frob control), which over time the player absorbs the logic of, ultimately improving their control and immersing them within the game.


Then please explain to me again, how closing world-readables with the world-frob key is against this principle! Right now if you take an item with world-frob, you also drop it with world-frob, not with attack or use. To me the readables are out of the design rules here! The whole thing could probably be fixed by just adding another key line to some config file. But I can imagine that if there is no variable yet remembering the last weapon used, there is no easy way to add the other feature, but that wasn't suggested by me anyway ;)...

Edited by wesp5, 11 April 2014 - 09:33 AM.


#1178 wesp5

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 04:11 PM

Another thing, and yes, I know I can be annoying ;), I just played the great Alberic's Curse mission and got a bit confused because I forgot that there is a dedicated DROP key. Alberic's skull flashed green when pressing USE, so I figured USING him on the pool would work. But I had to drop him in! Any chance to make USE bring items that can only be world-dropped into the dropping position? This would possibly get rid of the DROP key altogether and thus minimize the UI somewhat further...

#1179 demagogue

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 07:03 PM

Some objects you can throw from the inventory like that, like mines. So the mapper could have set it up that way. You'd have to ask the mapper, but I think he was just going with an old mechanic, since 'drop McGuffin into X' objectives has been around forever. In any event, it's really something for mappers to do for their own objects, not as a general feature, since objects differ in what 'use' or 'frob' does to them, food vs mines vs crates vs McGuffins vs readables, etc.

The whole thing could probably be fixed by just adding another key line to some config file.


It's not quite that simple. I think it's going to be in the Player.cpp sourcecode, probably just in a single line where you add the equivalent of "or right.mouseclick" to the conditional, then re-compile. I'm a fan of local tweaks and do it all the time, so it's easy for me to recommend it. I'll even tweak FMs, or did in the dromed days, when I knew for a fact the author would be livid if they knew because they'd rage at other fans asking how to do it, that they're breaking their FM; I just do it quietly myself. IMO nothing's sacred once it's your local version and the game is yours to tweak.

I didn't think those above suggestions were terrible ideas, they have a logic. And we do get terrible or completely unworkable ideas sometimes, and these weren't that. I just bought the reasons for why they are they way they are. There is something to say for consistency in the sense of not changing UI things for players to re-learn 4 years into the game, or at least there needs to be a good reason to change it. But at least for me, the arguments that tend to be persuasive tap into overarching design ideas & the logic the game is trying to internally make with them, which is what I was trying to say above; it's a style of arguing for features I find more persuasive in my experience anyway.
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#1180 Springheel

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:04 PM

Any chance to make USE bring items that can only be world-dropped into the dropping position? This would possibly get rid of the DROP key altogether and thus minimize the UI somewhat further...


No, this would be inconsistent. Many objects can be used AND dropped, and there's no particular reason to try and combine those functions.

#1181 Lux

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Posted 11 April 2014 - 08:52 PM

Then please explain to me again,[...], but that wasn't suggested by me anyway ;)...


That's a pretty insistent comment. It almost seems like eveyone else posts' are har ed to read.

Edited by Lux, 12 April 2014 - 05:20 PM.


#1182 wesp5

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 11:31 AM

Some objects you can throw from the inventory like that, like mines. So the mapper could have set it up that way.


I guessed as much. I was confused especially because the item flashed green when used right from the beginning. It probably should have flashed red unless it was near the place it was supposed to be dropped.

I'm a fan of local tweaks and do it all the time, so it's easy for me to recommend it.


So could you look into a solution for my readables suggestion? If you could provide an easy fix to the deverlopers they might include it in the next update!

There is something to say for consistency in the sense of not changing UI things for players to re-learn 4 years into the game, or at least there needs to be a good reason to change it.


As this wouldn't be a change but only an addition, old players could still use the attack key like they are used too, but others could use the frob key instead.

Edited by wesp5, 12 April 2014 - 11:32 AM.


#1183 New Horizon

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:15 PM

So could you look into a solution for my readables suggestion? If you could provide an easy fix to the deverlopers they might include it in the next update!





Local tweaks generally mean personalized tweaks applied only to your own install, there is no guarantee they would end up in the developer version of the game.

#1184 wesp5

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:16 PM

That's a pretty insistent comment.


Yeah, but I just recently noticed that items in the world are handled exactly like my suggestion already, the readables are the exeption to the rule IMHO.

Edited by wesp5, 12 April 2014 - 12:23 PM.


#1185 wesp5

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:21 PM

Local tweaks generally mean personalized tweaks applied only to your own install, there is no guarantee they would end up in the developer version of the game.


I understand that, but my guess would be if demagogue could say that only one line must be changed in a specific file, you developers would more easily consider to include it because there would be no need to search for it yourself. I have a lot of experience due to patching Bloodlines and people who deliver the solution to a fix are the best :)! So what do you say, wouldn't adding FROB to unread a world-readable be UI consistent?

Edited by wesp5, 12 April 2014 - 12:23 PM.


#1186 Springheel

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Posted 12 April 2014 - 12:58 PM

So what do you say, wouldn't adding FROB to unread a world-readable be UI consistent?


Yes it would.

#1187 demagogue

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 08:31 AM

I understand that, but my guess would be if demagogue could say that only one line must be changed in a specific file, you developers would more easily consider to include it because there would be no need to search for it yourself.


Well my intention was more like, if you really want it, you can open up player.cpp, cntl-F Find "readable" or a similar key-word (since I've never seen it before, I just know it has to exist somewhere, your ability to find it is honestly as good as mine), change that puppy, recompile, and shabam, you get the UI you're happy with and we never have to hear about the issue again. ^_^ But you know, feel free to interpret it as you like, lol, or as they say:

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:laugh: For the record, though, I am about 99.9732 percent sure the reason it hasn't been changed has nothing to do with how easy or hard it is as a fix. Anything's possible, though, I guess.
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#1188 wesp5

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Posted 13 April 2014 - 10:24 AM

Well my intention was more like, if you really want it, you can open up player.cpp, cntl-F Find "readable" or a similar key-word (since I've never seen it before, I just know it has to exist somewhere, your ability to find it is honestly as good as mine), change that puppy, recompile, and shabam, you get the UI you're happy with and we never have to hear about the issue again.


The problem with that is that I am a completely newbie here and wouldn't know where to look or how to recompile anything in the first place. But you seem to do so ;)!

#1189 SirGen

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 06:37 PM

The new sound effects for when the player attacks an enemy in a non-armored spot sounds great, but when the player gets hit by an enemy's weapon it's still the old "thud" sound. This thud sound is great for when the player gets hit by a hammer or club, but it's a bit immersion breaking to hear a thud sound for a sword or dagger attack. Are there any plans for making it so that when the enemy attacks the player with a blade, the new slashing sound effect is played?

Also, is there an ETA for the 2.02 release?

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#1190 Melan

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 02:25 AM

Seeing that Moors - dark-skinned AI - will be added to TDM, I wonder if the selection will improve in one area that's been getting little attention: old people. The City should be full with folks who are old, or simply time-worn and weary due to hard work, malnutrition and chimney smoke, but most AI are rather on the spry side, and perhaps just a bit too handsome for the industrial revolution. We've got a bearded old guy, but he is our only option right now. So, more old men and widows, please...

...but also, anyone who looks poor and in bad health. The City needs people to populate its teeming slums, overcrowded flophouses, miserable workshops and disreputable taverns! We need unfortunates to fill up The Plague Ward and look the part! Apart from heads, a few skins with drab, patched and torn garments would be excellent. :)
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#1191 Sotha

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 02:45 AM

Seeing that Moors - dark-skinned AI - will be added to TDM, I wonder if the selection will improve in one area that's been getting little attention: old people. The City should be full with folks who are old, or simply time-worn and weary due to hard work, malnutrition and chimney smoke, but most AI are rather on the spry side, and perhaps just a bit too handsome for the industrial revolution. We've got a bearded old guy, but he is our only option right now. So, more old men and widows, please...

...but also, anyone who looks poor and in bad health. The City needs people to populate its teeming slums, overcrowded flophouses, miserable workshops and disreputable taverns! We need unfortunates to fill up The Plague Ward and look the part! Apart from heads, a few skins with drab, patched and torn garments would be excellent. :)


I suppose all it would require is a talented texture artist to draw some wrinkles, plague spots, scars and stuff on the existing face textures.

A while back I played with face reskinning and got this with sloppyish gimp session.
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#1192 zenid

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 05:16 PM

I just noticed that your visibility is not affected if you shoulder an AI. If a bow does, I think a full grown man in armor should, too ;)

#1193 Springheel

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Posted 20 April 2014 - 11:42 PM

I wonder if the selection will improve in one area that's been getting little attention: old people. The City should be full with folks who are old, or simply time-worn and weary due to hard work, malnutrition and chimney smoke


Yes, that's a valid issue. We don't really have good vocals or animations for old people either. Old, wrinkly faces really need very good normal-maps, which makes them the most difficult to do, but they're definitely on my list.

#1194 Melan

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Posted 21 April 2014 - 02:37 AM

Thanks for considering the issue.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#1195 Plutonia

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:24 AM

I have a question about how the movement speed modifiers are programmed... Are there static modes for different speeds, which determine the volume of the footsteps, or is there a gradient, and the speeds are just specific values chosen from that gradient?

Because I've noticed that I almost never use the mouse wheel for selecting items or weapons in any game anymore. So the wheel becomes useless. The Dark Mod also has hotkeys for all the most important items that you need to be able to select quickly. If the speed modifier in The Dark Mod is a full sliding scale and not just several digital values, then wouldn't it be possible to bind MWheelUp and MWheelDown to "Increase speed" and "Decrease speed" like in Splinter Cell (1-4)?

If when the player activates the "run" modifier, the game just selects a specific speed value, and the footstep volume is calculated from a combination of speed and surface material, then wouldn't it be a pretty simple procedure to program a slider that selects an arbitrary modifier? I think this would be a nice, albeit a bit gimmicky optional addition to the movement mechanics. The standard speed modifier keys would still function normally, and set the pre-determined speed modifiers when activated.

...Or would this somehow mess up the footstep emission system during movement by allowing players to make dozens of changes to movement speed in a second? :(

#1196 Springheel

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 10:42 AM

Are there static modes for different speeds, which determine the volume of the footsteps, or is there a gradient


It is static. There are 6 different speeds:

creep-crouch-walk
creep-walk
crouch-walk
walk
crouch-run
run

#1197 Plutonia

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 01:26 PM

Okay. Well, it was worth a try. :) So let me get this straight... all those speeds are separate systems? There isn't one single base speed and a set of selected arbitrary multipliers based on run, walk and creep in combination with standing up and crouching, and a base sound volume being calculated from the result of the equation? Which in turn would be filtered through the surface material to produce the final volume?

Mind you that this isn't a criticism of coding practices or anything. Were talking about a mod afterall. A base gameplay mechanic built very deep into one, to be precise. I mean, with the Dark Engine it wasn't even possible to mod the engine enough to get the game to rotate the camera outside the player's control.

(Kinda like the fact that you couldn't get the player to have control over the camera in NuThief. Zing!)

Edited by Plutonia, 22 April 2014 - 01:27 PM.


#1198 SteveL

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 02:26 PM

Thing is, it's not just the volume of the sound that changes. To take the most extreme example, moving through water. Running through water isn't just noisier than walking through it: the splashes sound completely different. The same effect happens on other surfaces, just less noticeable. That's why there's a limited set of movement sounds... it's not just a volume change. There are separate sound files for the different modes.

#1199 wesp5

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 03:27 PM

creep-crouch-walk


Uh, so creep and crouch are not the same? Is this something like prone? I don't think I ever used it.

crouch-run


I wasn't aware that this is possible either! In other games running automatically have you stand up.

#1200 RJFerret

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Posted 22 April 2014 - 09:10 PM

Creeping along is movement, crouching is a position.

Observe the little designs on either side of the light gem, if they are straight out you are standing up, they tilt down when you are crouched. You may creep slowly or run in either position.

See http://wiki.thedarkm...rk_Mod_Gameplay
Particularly the movement section and HUD display re: lightgem.
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