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#1951 Obsttorte

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 01:59 AM

IMO, the light gem is there only because noone invented better way to provide feedback to players on their visibility.

To be honest I think that the lightgem is there because it was there in the original Thief games, like many other things. That's probably also why we have two lockpicks, although based on the minigame implemented for lockpicking we would only need one.

 

As said above I prefer the shroud approach of the new thief over the lightgem. It is much more subtle and less precise, leaving some minor uncertainty to the player. But I know that there are quiet a few players who dislike it, although I can't say how many of them actually played the game. :)

 

Using a sound meter as a feedback for hearing impaired as stated by HMart is a good point, but I never read any complaints from that side here, so I am not sure we are affected by that either.

 

2le5wlg.png

Another concept.

This is far from subtle, dude. :P


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#1952 Judith

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:12 AM

 

As said above I prefer the shroud approach of the new thief over the lightgem. It is much more subtle and less precise, leaving some minor uncertainty to the player. But I know that there are quiet a few players who dislike it, although I can't say how many of them actually played the game. :)

 

That might be interesting, although I had a weird problem with that effect, both in Thief reboot and in Dishonored. For some reason, it made me feel drowsy during longer sessions, not sure why. I think they dialed it down in Dishonored 2, at least I don't remember having that problem.



#1953 demagogue

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 07:33 AM

I have read comments from hearing impaired people over the years saying this feature would be appreciated.

I think it's the kind of project a fan needs to do on their own initiative, it should be an optional feature and possibly even cvar enabled, and there should be feedback from actual hearing impaired people verifying that if makes the game playable/improves their enjoyment.

As a side bonus it could improve it for other people, eg, playing the game on a noisy train commute, etc., but that's not a compelling reason to do it by itself.
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#1954 Springheel

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:35 AM

To be honest I think that the lightgem is there because it was there in the original Thief games, like many other things. That's probably also why we have two lockpicks, although based on the minigame implemented for lockpicking we would only need one.

 

Actually, there were originally going to be FOUR lockpicks.  I was in favour of just one "lockpicks" object, but two was considered the compromise position.

 

We did talk about leaving the lightgem out entirely, but we kept coming back to the problem of how the player is supposed to be able to properly judge how visible they are.  There is simply no way to do it without some kind of HUD element...or if there is we've never been able to think of one.

 

As said above I prefer the shroud approach of the new thief over the lightgem. It is much more subtle and less precise, leaving some minor uncertainty to the player.

 

 

I'm not sure how it can be called "subtle", when it occupies the entire outer edge of the screen and communicates by flashing bright white.  I found it massively distracting.  It also does not provide the player any feedback about how speed, weapon use, or anything else affects their visibility (although in T4 perhaps none of those things actually did).



#1955 HMart

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 08:58 AM

 

We did talk about leaving the lightgem out entirely, but we kept coming back to the problem of how the player is supposed to be able to properly judge how visible they are.  There is simply no way to do it without some kind of HUD element...or if there is we've never been able to think of one.

 

I have nothing against the lightgem, is a perfect valid way to do what it does and also makes TDM feel more like thief but there is other ways to make the user know they are in shadow, without a HUD element, for example all Frictional Games, games, make the entire view slightly blue when you are on shadow, that in no way broke immersion on that games to me, imo even augmented it. 


Edited by HMart, 07 March 2018 - 08:58 AM.


#1956 Destined

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 09:37 AM

 

Actually, there were originally going to be FOUR lockpicks.  I was in favour of just one "lockpicks" object, but two was considered the compromise position.

 

We did talk about leaving the lightgem out entirely, but we kept coming back to the problem of how the player is supposed to be able to properly judge how visible they are.  There is simply no way to do it without some kind of HUD element...or if there is we've never been able to think of one.

 

 

I'm not sure how it can be called "subtle", when it occupies the entire outer edge of the screen and communicates by flashing bright white.  I found it massively distracting.  It also does not provide the player any feedback about how speed, weapon use, or anything else affects their visibility (although in T4 perhaps none of those things actually did).

Four lockpicks would definitely have been overkill. Thinking about it, I also think that one lockpick would be enough. The constant switching and trying both before finding out that you actually need a key is more bothersome than fun. Fortunately, every mapper can still choose to just put one lockpick type in the mission, so I will most likely do that in my WIP (if I finally find the time and motivation to continue it). So, having two as an option with map authors being able to decide for themselves if they want to use both or just one is probably the best compromise available.

 

There are a couple of possible visibility indicators. Splinter Cell: Black List (or was it Double Agent? Not 100% sure) turns the screen black and white, and Styx just lowers the brightness a bit (if I remember correctly). I don't know what you mean with the "flashing bright white" in T4, though. The shroud was always black, as far as I remember. Of course, there was a light gem in addition to the shroud, which was kind of unnecessesary, if oyu have the shroud. Personally, I like the light gem. It was used in the old thief games and will always be a classic for me.



#1957 wesp5

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:01 AM

Thinking about it, I also think that one lockpick would be enough. The constant switching and trying both before finding out that you actually need a key is more bothersome than fun.

I completely agree with that! Is it possible to only use one lockpick if lockpicking is set to easy or automatic or is there no way to overrule the mission info?

 

As for the light gem, I like it a bit more than shrouding but I can live with both. And I think the (((o))) design idea would be great to add a sound meter to it!



#1958 Taquito.

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:09 AM


This is far from subtle, dude. :P

 

 

It's a raw layout of a concept Obsttorte. You have to imagine it with the same colors and structure of the original light gem. Here's another concept which includes both health and sound meter:

 

11bu81s.png



#1959 Taquito.

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:16 AM

If the AI notices lock picking noises then two or more lock picks make sense game play wise for added tension.



#1960 Judith

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:17 AM

You can add blue for breath meter, and magenta for invisibility meter, and we'll have a complete package:

 

obraz.png



#1961 OrbWeaver

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 11:32 AM

Perhaps yellow could indicate when you needed to pee.


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#1962 Taquito.

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:00 PM

It doesn't have to be colorful.



#1963 Springheel

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 12:28 PM

 

I have nothing against the lightgem, is a perfect valid way to do what it does and also makes TDM feel more like thief but there is other ways to make the user know they are in shadow, without a HUD element, for example all Frictional Games, games, make the entire view slightly blue when you are on shadow, that in no way broke immersion on that games to me, imo even augmented it. 

 

 But visibility is not a binary condition.  You'd have to have several different shades of blue to communicate things like the difference in visibility between having your sword out or having your blackjack out.  But then you have essentially created a lightgem overlays the entire screen, which I wouldn't be a fan of.

 

I don't know what you mean with the "flashing bright white" in T4, though. The shroud was always black, as far as I remember.

 

 

It flashed white to communicate that you went from a shadow area into a lit area. 


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#1964 Destined

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 01:14 PM

Hm, I honestly can't remember that... Well, as I said, I am completely happy with the light gem and how things work in TDM, so there is no sense for me to discuss other methods.


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#1965 wanderer

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 01:47 PM

Rope arrows that wind up. If you just leave a rope arrow, the guards will see it. If you remove it after you climb up, you can't get down without jumping and hurting yourself. I would like rope arrows to toggle between being coiled up and hanging down when selected and you hit enter. Frobbing would still take them.



#1966 wesp5

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 02:07 PM

It doesn't have to be colorful.

I agree. While I think the basic idea of (((0))) is fine, it should not be bigger than the current lightgem. Just small ( ) added to the side...


Edited by wesp5, 07 March 2018 - 02:07 PM.

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#1967 HMart

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Posted 07 March 2018 - 04:45 PM

 

 But visibility is not a binary condition.  You'd have to have several different shades of blue to communicate things like the difference in visibility between having your sword out or having your blackjack out.  But then you have essentially created a lightgem overlays the entire screen, which I wouldn't be a fan of.

 

That is true is not always a binary choice but i was referring to a binary choice, be on shadow or not, that is why i also think the lightgem is a good compromise for TDM, about a overlay over the entire screen, that is a matter of taste, to me it was not a problem at all and the apparent lack of complaints about it on the FG forums, show to me that many people didn't care about it either. But i'm not a fan of all screen overlays, i totally dislike blood overlays for example and unfortunately many modern games use them. 


Edited by HMart, 07 March 2018 - 04:45 PM.


#1968 Taquito.

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 02:42 PM

I agree. While I think the basic idea of (((0))) is fine, it should not be bigger than the current lightgem. Just small ( ) added to the side...

 

 

Exactly. Or even smaller. In my opinion, the ideal one should integrate everything in a simple way.


Edited by Taquito., 09 March 2018 - 02:44 PM.


#1969 Gin

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 04:48 PM

The sounds played when the player walks on loud surfaces are louder then the ones played on quiet surfaces. This already gives the player an idea of how loud he really is. It is not a direct numerical feedback of course, but I am not a huge fan of those anyways. I belong to the (probably small amount of) people who actually liked the shroud in the latest Thief game and would prefer it over the current system. It adds some uncertainty to the game that really suits the gameplay imho.

 

Having the player making noise when turning is an interesting idea, though, as currently he can turn and turn and will never make any noise doing so, which isn't really optimal imho.

I think being able to hear the sound levels is the best way to handle it, but right now that's not really the case with some sounds. Specifically, Tile sounds way quieter than stone, very similar too. Wood and snow also sound a bit too loud. Water sounds a bit quiet. Granted I don't know the exact noise levels of these, but I'm mostly going by my experience with them and from Thief's noise levels.

 

I love The Dark Mod, but the sounds I think are the weakest point right now. I'm not a sound designer, but if you compare Thief's tile to TDM's, you can tell immediately that tile is a very loud surface in Thief because of both the volume and the echo it has. TDM's metal sounds fine with this, gravel too.

 

If I were to say one more thing I'd like to see in TDM, it'd be T3's wall sliding because often it's easy to bump into guards in narrow corridors. Though I don't think that's as important as the sounds getting tweaked.


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#1970 wesp5

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 05:16 PM

I think being able to hear the sound levels is the best way to handle it, but right now that's not really the case with some sounds.

BTW, has the wooden chest opening sound being the same as the wooden door opening sound been fixed in the prefabs yet?



#1971 RPGista

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:45 AM

Cmon guys, the lightgem is cool I guess when you are starting, but how long have you been playing Thief/TDM? We all know quite well when a place offers good shadow cover, or when it provides very little. We learn that by the way AI react. Same for the sound meter discussion. Cant even remember the last time I had the lightgem on. It makes the game that much more fun to play when you cant know for sure how safe you are when walking around.



#1972 Judith

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 04:16 AM

I play with lightgem on, all the time. I expect new players will do the same, and the last thing I'd want to do is to discourage them.



#1973 demagogue

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 11:13 AM

It's a fun challenge to turn it off sometimes, but I mostly have it on. To each their own.
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#1974 Abusimplea

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Posted 11 March 2018 - 12:39 PM

We all know quite well when a place offers good shadow cover, or when it provides very little.

Yes, we know - but in a lot of missions there are spots where the engine disagrees and gives us a bright gem in what looks like an okayish spot to hide otherwise. In most cases, the lightgem allows me to react to those lighting bugs before an AI does.

Also, the gem makes learning the mechanic less try-and-error.


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#1975 RPGista

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 04:21 PM

Sure, whatever floats your boat. But these guys put a lot of work into making the TDM AI responsive and interesting when alerted. Lets give them a chance, shall we? One can always load the game afterwards, no harm done. ;) This is joking, by the way, things can get a bit uptight around here.






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