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Fan Mission: The Beleaguered Fence by Sotha (2010/06/23)


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Poll: Fan Mission: The Beleaguered Fence by Sotha (2010/06/23) (47 member(s) have cast votes)

1. Gameplay: Enjoyment. Fun duration. Smooth flow, ect. Versus Bugs. Frustration, Boredom, framelag

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Tolerable (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  3. Good (13 votes [27.66%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 27.66%

  4. Excellent (25 votes [53.19%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 53.19%

  5. Near Perfect (9 votes [19.15%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 19.15%

2. Appearance: Visual pleasure, lighting, visual style, deduct bad texturing etc.

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Tolerable (3 votes [6.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.38%

  3. Good (14 votes [29.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.79%

  4. Excellent (27 votes [57.45%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 57.45%

  5. Near Perfect (3 votes [6.38%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 6.38%

3. Story & Text: Story. Text. Briefing. Graphic storytelling

  1. Poor (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Tolerable (4 votes [8.51%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.51%

  3. Good (14 votes [29.79%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 29.79%

  4. Excellent (22 votes [46.81%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 46.81%

  5. Near Perfect (7 votes [14.89%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 14.89%

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#101 Sotha

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 04:22 AM

So, anyone recently played BF in TDMv1.02 and had a spyglass? :mellow:

Sotha, I guess that whiteness in the shot is this

Spoiler
, eh?

I hoped you´d comment on what I said about the DynamicAmbientLighting... :rolleyes: Just say: "Yes, LEGION, you´re right. I messed that up, but I´ll do better in the future. It really was set too dark." :)


Aye, the whiteness is what you speak about. It gets lost in the eyecandy effects. You know. White thing under white light. It was visible before without the new visual enchancements.

Dynamicambients... I did not use any location setting lights. The mission has only one ambient light with its basic settings and that light shines everywhere. There is NO special basic lighting conditions for different scenes: all use the same ambient. The only thing which is different is the amount of torches and normal lights. I observed I had to increase gamma somewhat after the enabling the new eye candies, maybe this helps. Instead of using a toggle gamma switch, maybe increase gamma to somewhere between your two toggles? I've only played one mission (lockdown) with the new visuals and simple gamma adjustement was all I needed.
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#102 LEGION

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:21 AM

That is strange, because I noticed different blend times between streets/apartment and streets/stronghold!!! :unsure: So it is a 1.03-thing. Didnīt you even set the orange lava-ambient-light? So thatīs all automatic from the new ambient-shaders? Impressive but how does it know what is inside and what outside?

Iīm very sensitive to gamma-settings, I just want walls to be barely visible, I have to test another mission...

#103 Sotha

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:31 AM

That is strange, because I noticed different blend times between streets/apartment and streets/stronghold!!! :unsure: So it is a 1.03-thing. Didn´t you even set the orange lava-ambient-light? So that´s all automatic from the new ambient-shaders? Impressive but how does it know what is inside and what outside?

I´m very sensitive to gamma-settings, I just want walls to be barely visible, I have to test another mission...


There is absolutely NO lava ambient, there is only the standard ambient light which gets applied to every location in the map. The lava light is just normal yellow lights which emit from the lava.
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#104 LEGION

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:47 AM

I really suggest that you go and look for yourself NOW (if you can) because between the lines I get the impression that you think Iīm insane... ;) Must be the ambient shaders, Iīll test now, oh damn, well, Iīll test it soon...

#105 Sotha

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 05:55 AM

I really suggest that you go and look for yourself NOW (if you can) because between the lines I get the impression that you think I´m insane... ;) Must be the ambient shaders, I´ll test now, oh damn, well, I´ll test it soon...


Checked map in DR and noclipped around the map just now.

Oh yes, the new eye candy DOES somehow emulate ambient lights. When I am in a well lit location the ambient is brighter and slightly same color as the lights. When I go through a visportal to a room without any lighting the ambient is darker. How cools is that? Saves a lot of trouble from the mapper.

For me it was just perfect. The dark room ambience was dark as it should be. Felt just right. It tries to emulate a bit how your eyes adapt to darkness. Darkness in well lit room looks different than in total darkness. I really recommend you boost your gamma just a bit. And remember, even a thief may need to use his lantern in a totally pitch black room as there is very little ambient light there. I also like this auto ambience (not only because it makes things feel realistic and nice but) because it also makes the lantern more useful.

Realism-wise the it would be impossible to hide in a shadow in a room lit up by lava, so it is absolutely necessary that this auto ambience light does not affect the light gem.

And I also verify that there indeed is no spyglass whatsoever in BF. My future missions will certainly have this tool.
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#106 LEGION

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 09:47 AM

That console-warning let me thought that the spyglass should be there. Anyway, it seems I really have to increase my gamma. Yeah, I love black shadows but in that apartment I couldnīt even see the shelf and what was on it without the lantern. Itīs okay to use the lantern, but what if a guard is watching. I fear that I have to adjust my gamma-setting from mission to mission. Well, I can create an individual autoexec-file with the gamma-setting for every FM...

Lol, it seems my big praise from the morning was more about 1.03 than the mission itself. ;) Nah, just kidding, it was a blast, the biggest upside for me was the perfect ambiance-sound-setup, very damn good job on that!

#107 Sotha

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 02:38 PM

Ahem....
*Clears throat*

Yes, LEGION, you´re right. I messed that up, but I´ll do better in the future. It really was set too dark.

I just observed that BF actually uses dimmer ambient_world than the standard. The standard has "_color 0.08 0.08 0.08" my ambient_world is "0.03 0.03 0.03." So yes, it is darker than normal in BF. If you check Glenham or Knightons they both have the correct standard 0.08 0.08 0.08 ambient_world, so I recommend setting your gamma properly according to those maps. I promise to do better in the future. :blush:

But the automatic ambient changing is still something I didn't do. That is a cool new feature in TDM. I suppose I have to update BF when the next load of new content arrives: fix all the accumulated issues and maybe add some new vocals and stuff for the AI.

Note to self:
ambient_world
Briefing fix
spyglass
func_static optimizations outside
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#108 lowenz

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 03:38 PM

Good to hear that!
Support old missions is always welcome! :D

And this is an awesome one Posted Image

Edited by lowenz, 29 December 2010 - 03:39 PM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.


#109 LEGION

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Posted 29 December 2010 - 10:12 PM

LoL :laugh: For a moment I feared the DynamicAmbient was also you but gladly you made clear itīs not. A value about 3? And the standard is 8? Hm, as I put AmbientLight into Doom3-maps I tested very much and chose 5, though I wouldīve liked 4.5, but that wasnīt possible. Then again, recently I turned off my TV-settings like 'Active Control' and 'Contrast+' that brightened up things a little bit and I have the impression that the difference between bright and dark textures isnīt that dramatic anymore. In Doom3 I have gamma/brightness at default (1) and AmbientLight is fine, but itīs different story in TDM for some reason. (of course you idiot, because not everyone has used 5) Alright, Iīll play Glenham Tower now (itīs almost 4 in the morning and I canīt sleep anymore, so I donīt think I can play Knighton Manor after that, and it would be odd anyway considering the order...)

Oh, as I speak of Knighton Manor and I have your attention and Iīm in derail-mode anyway: You released this mission before v.1.03 though you originally wanted to wait because of the girls. So, both are out and are the girls fully 'operational' in your mission or are they even in it? :mellow: I wanted to see/hear them in a mission before I 'study' them further in my *censored*-room (Yes Sotha, I know, I wonīt get more into this lest I befoul your honoured thread ;) )

#110 Sotha

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 01:15 AM

So, both are out and are the girls fully 'operational' in your mission or are they even in it? :mellow:


Nope, no ladies at Knightons.
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#111 LEGION

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 08:41 PM

*sniff* :mellow: sadness is spreading, tears are rolling, alone, so alone, just want sth I can never have... *sniff*

#112 PedsXing

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Posted 05 March 2011 - 07:45 PM

I've read every spoiler in this thread, but I'm still stuck :D ...

Spoiler


#113 Sotha

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:49 AM

I've read every spoiler in this thread, but I'm still stuck :D ...

Spoiler


Spoiler

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#114 Sotha

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 12:59 AM

Yes, the map has been broken due to some recent tdm change.:(

There is no way for you to get there. And if I remember correctly there are triggers there, so noclipping may be of no help.
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#115 Tels

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:40 AM

Checked map in DR and noclipped around the map just now.

Oh yes, the new eye candy DOES somehow emulate ambient lights. When I am in a well lit location the ambient is brighter and slightly same color as the lights. When I go through a visportal to a room without any lighting the ambient is darker. How cools is that? Saves a lot of trouble from the mapper.


Er, yes, that is cool like a cucumber. :ph34r: But, and thats the big but, you have to use the ambient zones system:

http://wiki.thedarkm..._light_settings

If you haven't used that, then the ambient light should not change. (Unless the new interaction-shader does something?)
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#116 Sotha

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 07:47 AM

Er, yes, that is cool like a cucumber. :ph34r: But, and thats the big but, you have to use the ambient zones system:

http://modetwo.net/d..._light_settings

If you haven't used that, then the ambient light should not change. (Unless the new interaction-shader does something?)


The effect is real, even when there is no ambient light setups. I do not know why. I see it only in BL, not in my other maps. The ambient_world is of lower value in this mission, so that must have something to do about it. This was discussed somewhere, but I cannot remember where. I even posted two screenies there.

See for yourself: start the mission and look at pitch black area in the starting streets. Then fly inside the second floor window in the abandoned house far, just directly in front of the starting position. You will see the absolute black color change when you pass the visportal (window). I guarantee that there is absolutely NO ambient zones with different light setups in this mission. But still the effect is there. Magic?
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#117 Tels

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Posted 06 March 2011 - 08:34 AM

The effect is real, even when there is no ambient light setups. I do not know why.


Took me a while to figure out, but there IS an ambient setup :)

Attached File  location_settings.jpg   154.58KB   13 downloads

You used the zoning system to play sounds, this automatically also setups the ambient light changes. And since there is a visportal sep. the room from the streets, the count as different zones.

Here is what happens if you switch between the street and the room:

Left is your base ambient (the same for all zones), right is the dynamic part, which is slightly yellowish due to the candles. If there was a gaslight, moonlight, or red lava, or green mushroom glow, it would be colored differently automatic:

Fading light to '0.03 0.03 0.03' plus '0.03 0.02 0.01' in '0.500000' seconds.
Fading light to '0.03 0.03 0.03' plus '0 0 0' in '0.500000' seconds.
Fading light to '0.03 0.03 0.03' plus '0.03 0.02 0.01' in '0.500000' seconds.

The default values are:

"ambient_light_dynamic"                 "0.01 0.01 0.01"  // a factor to scale the light in the current zone
"ambient_light_dynamic_cap"             "0.1 0.1 0.1"     // cap the dynamic part to 0.1 at most

Note that the dynamic part is also scaled automatically by the light source - a candle contributes much less than a torch as they have differently sized light radius values.

:) So you don't have to explicitely set different ambient lights. You could have, of course, like making the street more blue, and the room more yellow.

The cap above makes sure that even if you light a lot of lights in a room, the player does not get lit up like a christmas tree.

There is even a setting which makes this much better:

"editor_float ambient_light_falloff"        "Selects the falloff adjustment for the lights in the current are based on their distance.
 Possible values: 0 - no falloff with distance, 0.5 = 
sqrt(distance), 1 = linear falloff, 2 = squared falloff. 1 looks best. This setting can be override 
for each location on the 'info_location' entity. See also 'ambient_light_dist_scale'."

See: http://wiki.thedarkm...t_light_falloff

It is most unfortunate that SneaksieDave insisted on this setting being by default on 0 - it means that f.i. in your street the torches that are far away from the player contribute as much to the ambient light as the torch next to the player. With a value of "1", this means that the ambient light in the current zone changes as the player moves along the street - which is not only a lot more cooler, but also more correct. *sigh* Unfortunately, no mapper ever changes that value (as I suspected, most mappers don't even know the settings are there...)

Anyway, if you switch between the different ambient renders, you will see that "simple" switches the light immidiately, while both "normal" and "enhanced" fade the light over 5 seconds from the old to the new value :)
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." -- George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

"Remember: If the game lets you do it, it's not cheating." -- Xarax

#118 maga

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:50 PM

Very interesting fm. Really liked it :) Especially that guards visit almost every room. But, as i understand, they visit them by patrol-path, would be better to have some random element, otherwise you can calculate how much time you have between visits.

And i didn't liked monstrous size of blocks in wall texture, looks like something stretched.

http://dl.dropbox.co...1_15_49_605.png

Anyway, thank you for your mission.
Thank you very much for your patience and sorry for my strange English. Holland btw.

#119 ungoliant

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 09:15 PM

random wait elements are freely available to the mappers disposal, including on set patrols. this is in the very basics of the A-Z map editing guide, and I don't know of any mappers that do not utilize it.

#120 Sotha

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 12:32 PM

New version available. Check first post for link.
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#121 New Horizon

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:46 PM

Looks great with the new ambient_world light changes....and I definitely noticed the performance boost at the beginning. What did you do to achieve that?

#122 Sotha

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Posted 12 April 2011 - 01:53 PM

Looks great with the new ambient_world light changes....and I definitely noticed the performance boost at the beginning. What did you do to achieve that?


I agree, the new light value really does wonders here; what were I thinking when I put that 3, back then.. :huh:

I'm a bit embarrassed and reluctant to reveal this... but, you see, when I first built BF, I didn't know about anything. I didn't have The Workflow, nor The Technique.

All the brushes in the outside areas were worldspawn brushes. What I did now was simply float around the scene and func_staticify all the brushes I could without causing a leak. I think the scene tris count went down a lot.

And yes, I did monsterclip the areas the AI was able to reach. I think the scene could be further optimized a lot, but that would require redoing a lot of things, since the basic brushwork is so unthoughtful and crappy.

Really small amount of work; a reasonable performance boost. :P
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#123 Glyph Seeker

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 06:32 PM

4 / 3 / 4 rating from me - loved it!

You are great at bait and switch objectives, Sotha - reminded me of the structure of Mandralosa!
"No proposition Euclid wrote,
No formulae the text-books know,
Will turn the bullet from your coat,
Or ward the tulwar's
downward blow
Strike hard who cares—shoot straight who can—
The odds are on the cheaper man.
"


From 'Arithmetic on the Frontier' by Rudyard Kipling

#124 SneaksieDave

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Posted 06 July 2011 - 10:59 AM

It is most unfortunate that SneaksieDave insisted on this setting being by default on 0 - it means that f.i. in your street the torches that are far away from the player contribute as much to the ambient light as the torch next to the player. With a value of "1", this means that the ambient light in the current zone changes as the player moves along the street - which is not only a lot more cooler, but also more correct. *sigh* Unfortunately, no mapper ever changes that value (as I suspected, most mappers don't even know the settings are there...)

Just popping in... and see some things never change, do they? :laugh:

Well in response to whatever I'm being called down for here: the current system (which I didn't design) was a stepping stone to improvement. That "first go" was an attempt at an automatic faked radiosity system (again, not designed by me). It works okay, not great, but the way it was originally laid out (not by me) was that ambient lighting grew brighter as you approached local lights. That is backwards; your pupils should be dilating as you enter brighter light, so it looked completely wrong. Conversely when in dark areas, it provided basically no radiosity, making the feature pointless on the very topic it was supposed to address -- giving you partial vision in the dark and a more realistic look. Some setting about crossing zones or not, it's a limitation in the system -- either it works completely wrong, or... it works completely wrong (in a different way). The hope was it would be an improvement over having no system. I don't favor it.

What I argued at length for (check the threads for verbal ping-pong -- as will probably break out here too unless I limit my responses to this one) was for a system with ambient light entities linked to local lights, where the system controls the ambient light levels via the local light levels. Extinguish the local light, and the ambient light drops (not to zero). Ignite the local light, and the ambient light grows brighter. With multiple linkage: extinguish one local light of three total, and the ambient drops by about 1/3. You get the idea. It's not exactly Crytek but it would make a nice controllable automatic fake radiosity. That said, this can already be done in TDM (trigger an ambient entity with a local entity and it works, but only single linkages!), but it's not automatic. That's it.

That system was never implemented in favor of other features no one requested but I agree that no one is under contract here, and people should work on what they want to. I simply thought lighting was more essential to TDM's gameplay and look. For my own personal mission(s) (if I ever get around to finishing), I'm debating not using the zone info stuff and instead just using the native D3 ambients linked to locals. (That's assuming support for dynamic linked ambient-locals doesn't come to be for TDM.)

#125 LongShad

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Posted 12 August 2011 - 06:35 PM

Hello.
Lark is man in the coffin on 1 floor round cells? And Hammerite here sometimes comes.
I don't understand - where need hide body.




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