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#351 Xarg

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Posted 30 January 2015 - 02:41 PM

https://www.youtube....EY7lYRneHc#t=85


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#352 nbohr1more

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 03:37 PM

This thread is now the understatement of the century:

 

https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/


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#353 kano

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 04:35 PM

... and the shit hits the fan, yet again.

 

The next few months will be interesting times...



#354 Anderson

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 06:15 AM

Snowden is a traitor that has to be judged for his crimes and involvement with Wikileaks.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#355 Bikerdude

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:09 AM

Snowden is a traitor that has to be judged for his crimes and involvement with Wikileaks.

This is one of the few times I wish there was a dislike button, as I believe the polar opposite of the above statement.

The governments of the world have been allowed to trample all over peoples rights unchecked for far far too long.
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#356 Anderson

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:44 AM

This is one of the few times I wish there was a dislike button, as I believe the polar opposite of the above statement.

The governments of the world have been allowed to trample all over people rights unchecked for far far too long.

 

If a crusader for digital privacy is as gallant as he wants to appear, what prevents him from facing the issue face to face like David Frost?
​Where's the anti-establishment credibility for a person that runs under the shadow of your nearest dictatorship? Victimization, obscurantism and lack of vision is what plagues them all.

 

This is really all but a question of privacy v. security.


 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#357 Bikerdude

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:01 AM

a question of privacy v. security.

And this seems to be the crux of so many many issues atm.

#358 nbohr1more

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 10:57 AM

Security is great.

 

Do we need to allow the an unaccountable organization to nominate itself above all 3 branches of Government to have it:

 

org-chart.png


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#359 Anderson

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 11:35 AM

Security is great.

 

Do we need to allow the an unaccountable organization to nominate itself above all 3 branches of Government to have it:

 

 

 

You don't really have to because Congress with a Republican majority and a Republican President subscribes behind these. Everybody knows its happening at least since Watergate.

 

 

When Europe has no vision, in the big scheme of things the US gov. still has to do this until democracies around the world get the hang of things and adapt (which they have an amazing capability of doing versus dictatorships, the last of which quickly become anachronic and fade during crisis).
​I understand the frustration, but the alternative is far worse in our times. Angela Merkel shouldn't be upset because their current external policy is a mess driven to an extreme point with the same pedantic approach as during WW2 the war machine worked. Only this time this engineer, precision goes 180 degrees in the other way.

Liberalism has its limits too.


Edited by Anderson, 08 March 2017 - 11:43 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#360 Springheel

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 12:27 PM

Trump wants to undermine intelligence agencies, and it's nice that Russia/Wikileaks is there to help. 



#361 Professor Paul1290

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 05:30 PM

This thread is now the understatement of the century:

 

https://wikileaks.org/ciav7p1/

 

Well, I was anal-retentive enough to spend several hours actually going through the docs that were released.

 

I've come to the conclusion that while the docs themselves seem legit, the summary/interpretation by WikiLeaks is awful at best and intentionally misleading at worst.

 

 

Some of the content of these docs are really concerning, but it's only a small fraction.

Of actual interest are some exploits for iOS and Android, and these are the most interesting mostly because of the lack of info about them.

Realistically there's a good chance a lot of these do not work anymore.

 

Most of the rest is exploits and malware which is of concern in itself, but a lot of it is the same sort of exploits and malware you'd find produced by non-government entities, there's just a lot of it and it's more refined because they're better funded.

It's not the sort of stuff that is suitable for mass deployment or mass surveillance, that doesn't appear to be much of a focus for the department in question.

For the most part it seems geared for manual deployment in the field or deployment via targeted procedure.

(I suppose that makes sense given what the CIA typically does)

 

That TV "fake-off" WikiLeaks mentions requires manual install and setup via USB. The CIA would have to break into your house and have physical access to your TV to use it and at that point it's serving as an alternative to "conventional" bugs.

It seems this joint project was done as a proof of concept for a specific model that wouldn't have much operational value in of itself.

 

The component library maintained by the "UMBRAGE" group is indeed a collection of attacks and malware from other countries, but only in the sense that they mostly come from existing malware and code which inevitably happens to be produced in a lot of different countries.

A lot of them come from open source repos or from existing malware samples.

If this wasn't CIA this collection could easily be from a well-funded security company (particularly if they do penetration testing) or criminal group.

 

I could keep going on as there's a lot of material to cover, but I think that's enough for you to get the idea.

What these docs describe has very little to do with mass surveillance nor some "magic government remote access" to everyone's devices that a lot of readers are unfortunately assuming is in here somehow.

If there is such "magic government remote access", it's not mentioned at all here.

 

 

Seriously, if you're really interested in this, I would suggest ignoring the WikiLeaks summary and actually going through the material yourself.

I'm not expecting everyone to have specialist knowledge on information security, but I'm sure enough of you are familiar enough with tech to understand enough of it to realize how misleading he WikiLeaks summary/interpretation of it is.

A lot of you don't have to trust me on this, if you really wanted to you could go through the material yourself.

 

Heck, I'd even go so far to say I can only conclude WikiLeaks is either being misleading on purpose, or is being so incompetent at interpreting the material that it doesn't matter if they're being malicious or not.

In some cases it seems like they're deliberately banking on the idea that everyone is going to parrot their summary and not bother to go through the source material, and unfortunately if they are it seems like they would be right so far.

 

 

As for my personal view on this, while I have no reason to believe any of the source material WikiLeaks released is fake, my trust in them to interpret said material has pretty much evaporated with this release.

I'm starting wonder if they've always been doing this and maybe I'm only seeing it now because this is the first time I've bothered to go through the source material and understood enough of it to realize it.


Edited by Professor Paul1290, 10 March 2017 - 05:33 PM.

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#362 nbohr1more

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 06:41 PM

What about the hyper visor bios exploits?

What about the anti-sand boxing exploits?

What about the ability to remotely control vehicles for untraceable assassinations?

I suggest you review further too.
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#363 Springheel

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 08:34 PM

What about the ability to remotely control vehicles for untraceable assassinations?

 

 

This can already be done by hackers.  There are youtube videos demonstrating it. 



#364 stumpy

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 09:35 PM

The bbc made a big thing about the television's being hackable in the uk on the news, but never once mentioned it was only samsung smart tv's that could be hacked, they made it sound like all tv's are hackable remotely. Unless you are a terrorist then its more than likely you have not been hacked by the CIA, seeing as it would have been targeted hacks, maybe the tv's were actually given in a bogus prize draw. Who would say no, before the leaks, to a free smart tv.



#365 jaxa

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 12:50 AM

Every Internet connected product is capable of being hacked. All smart TVs, not just a particular brand. Physical access not required. The exploits are just waiting to be discovered. But if you were being targeted specifically, one way they can infect the device is to get to it after you order it and while it is in transit, if you ordered it online. So an exploit that requires physical access is still useful, even if it is overhyped.

 

Basically anything is vulnerable. There are decades old exploits lingering in modern operating systems. The real question is, do you pay your government to fix the flaws as they are found, or to exploit them? The CIA has chosen to exploit vulnerabilities, furthering some national security agenda that is in no citizen's interest, while degrading our security. Leaking documents to WikiLeaks is unprofitable and risky for the leaker. If one employee leaked, you can bet another employee sold some exploits instead, maintaining some of the shelf life of the exploit. The CIA would rather have a traitor in its ranks than a whistleblower/leaker.

 

We need a thousand Snowdens and dozens of WikiLeaks type organizations. The intelligence community is doing very little in the public's interest. Catching a few made-up terrorists here and there. The FBI can do a sting operation on a mentally ill Twitter user, give them some gray play-doh, and tell Congress they foiled N++ terrorist plots. If they get lucky, maybe they will foil a real potential attack, but that's not the low-hanging fruit, Continuing to run a drug war results in profit for a lot of people across multiple industries, but don't forget any of the law enforcement granted the power of civil forfeiture. There are many duplicate agencies offering plush jobs for bureaucrats and security guards.

 

Did I forget their fine overseas work? Oops. Let's give credit for drone assassinations, which are not at all destabilizing and don't create new enemies of the United States who are inspired to commit terrorist attacks, giving justification for more funding of the intelligence community.



#366 Professor Paul1290

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 02:31 AM

What about the hyper visor bios exploits?

What about the anti-sand boxing exploits?

 

Not sure what "hyper visor bios exploits" refers to specifically in these docs.

Perhaps it has to do with the section on EFI/ UEFI?

 

Anti-sandbox can refer to quite a few things that show up in this leak like "Flash Bang", the "Elderpiggy" exploit for iOS, or maybe the trick they pulled from "The Trojan Upclicker".

 

 

What about them?

 

Yes BIOS exploits and anti-sandboxing techniques are a threat. Yes they are very concerning.

 

While they're not the most common types exploits floating around, the CIA don't exactly have a monopoly on them.

Does whether the CIA or some criminal group have them change your threat model significantly?

I suppose that depends on your situation.

 

 

 

What about the ability to remotely control vehicles for untraceable assassinations?

 

The docs do not describe the "ability to remotely control vehicles for assassinations". If they have such a capability, it's not explained in here.

 

What is there are a set of meeting notes where "Vehicle Systems" are listed among "Potential Mission Areas".

As far as I can tell, the topic is not expanded upon beyond that, at least not in the docs that have been leaked.


Edited by Professor Paul1290, 11 March 2017 - 02:32 AM.


#367 Anderson

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 05:35 AM

Did I forget their fine overseas work? Oops. Let's give credit for drone assassinations, which are not at all destabilizing and don't create new enemies of the United States who are inspired to commit terrorist attacks, giving justification for more funding of the intelligence community.

 

Enemies exist regardless, it's about the answer to a threat that is proportional to such a threat. Everybody likes to forget how successful the Gulf War was, to remember the mistakes of the Iraq War, Afghanistan. But the truth was always the same whether a dictatorship is there to cover the ugly side of its activity with a curtain or let free market, free press and some democratic tendencies to slowly slide in.

The status quo constantly changes against the favour of dictatorships like Russia, Iran which are unable to adapt or influence the situation. So why not spew a seed of existential doubt and some nihilism?

The truth is that developing countries, developing democracies in transitional periods are as fragile as South Vietnam without any programme to consolidate the existing institutions.

Democracy is not just the will of the people. That was when 60% voted to eat the other 40% for breakfast. Democracy means building independent instituions based on rule of law, regardless of the government voted.


Edited by Anderson, 11 March 2017 - 05:36 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#368 nbohr1more

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Posted 07 August 2017 - 10:06 PM

Bill Binney NSA whistle-blower: How the NSA tracks you

 

 

He's suing both Trump and the old Obama administration for domestic spying.

 

He also confirmed that the DNC leak was "local file transfer" not Romanian or Russian hackers...

 

http://www.zerohedge...-were-leaked-no

 

This will probably be gone from the internet soon...


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#369 Anderson

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 08:56 AM

Bill Binney NSA whistle-blower: How the NSA tracks you

 

 

He's suing both Trump and the old Obama administration for domestic spying.

 

He also confirmed that the DNC leak was "local file transfer" not Romanian or Russian hackers...

 

http://www.zerohedge...-were-leaked-no

 

This will probably be gone from the internet soon...

 

Who can say his evidence is the ultimate truth? The link is still around so I guess this info isn't anything top secret.

 

Maybe this story is just a whitewash of Russia to justify Edward Snowden who was by this logic also an inside leaker who in the end pledges his allegiance to The Emperor and turned to the Dark Side. If we want to be Jedi we need to be above this.

On the Russia story, for utmost credibility, the investigation must not only concern those close to Trump who may or may not have influenced the election but in a separate investigation to see also into Clinton family's flirting with Russia beforehand.

 

But good luck to him to them on that I guess.

​Why I say that? With all due respect to you, a person that calls on Merkel to sacrifice Ukraine to Russia and doubts that Russians are imperialistic bully savages is not to be trusted: https://www.thenatio...e-believe-them/

​Do you know that if it not for the NSA and intercepting conversations and correspondence, Germany with its imperialistc national sentiment of inferiority would gladly take any moment to bash the US and flirt with Russia even if means making half of East Europe burn to ashes and make another Yugoslavia here? If it were not for the US leaking at will any arrogance that German influenced policies of the EU, every last one conflict where Russia came in force would have been won by now. It frustrates me immensely but these moves must be done by the US for the greater good of the world.
​One such clear case is when during a crucial moment of the Maidan revolution, the EU High Representative doubted to support Ukrainian protesters when their country was raped in the 21's century. At that point the US just rolls in and gives a fuck you to Germany. Yes Catherine Ashton is British, but the EU is still unfortunately largely influenced by and in the interests of Germany: https://www.theguard...hton-urmas-paet

You don't exactly see the EU Commission for Competition to slam Nord Stream 2 or anything. They are glad to feed their financial interest as Germany always had. In WW1 financing Bolsheviks, in WW2 raping Europe and marching like best buddies in 1939. And now economically, in a more subtle form but all over again. 
​For these reasons, the way the NSA and other gov. agencies operate in the US may be in some ways leaving space for abuse or misconduct such as during the Red Scare, but in no way any of that means a systematic abuse or a progression of America to authoritarianism. If anything, right now the US probably stands between Dirty Harry's enforcer method and American History X's understanding of its limits on the borderline of fascism and self-destruction. But only when such criticism is done in good faith. It shall be disregarded when done to discredit or destroy the values to divide and conquer America, Europe and the civilized world as a whole.


Edited by Anderson, 09 August 2017 - 09:34 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#370 RPGista

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 10:54 AM

Its always surprising to see this vilification of Snowden, and people like him, because of how they dared to open people's eyes. I guess you can make a case that you prefer your government to be protected at all costs, that any threat to it must be something evil, you buy that talk about how dangerous ratling the cage is, how vulnerable it leaves you, vulnerable to barbaric hordes, it seems. This is not a knock on Anderson or anyone else, I sincerely feel surprised whenever I see that happening. Specially because the government, wherever you may be, is not actually an entity, its a structure that keeps changing, its not composed of the same people, so in theory it could be anything. Its not a sentient being, preserved throughout history. You have your Trumps and Temers and people like that today, but you could have the opposite in the future. Hell, you already see much more advanced governments today, in certain parts of europe. Stuff we can aspire to. So I never really got why you would feel like its your duty to "protect" the government power strutucture, against your peers. Instead of seeing it as something that should be there to serve, not rule, and that you could help to improve by thoughtful participation. Obviously, the climate today is tending farther and farther away from this ideal, that you could be a part, that the individuals are the important thing. Thats why people like Snowden play an important role, reminding us what we are loosing, or what people in power are doing in order to preserve their power, to rule us "more and better". 

 

Its not really a mistery why Snowden had to run. Just take a look at the way they crucified Manning. Poeple saw the injustice and pettiness, but we could only watch and nobody could do anything to stop that (apart from Obama, in his last moments). Assange also got the message. So did a lot of people involved in the NSA leaks at the time, I remember that. But sure, I guess a lot of people see them as traitors of the cause, dangerous people that had no right.  It is still surprising to see it though. Its shoot the messenger one on one. You would expect people to understand they are not the ones who commited the crimes that they exposed. But its not that simple, it seems.


Edited by RPGista, 09 August 2017 - 10:59 AM.


#371 Anderson

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 11:19 AM

Its always surprising to see this vilification of Snowden, and people like him, because of how they dared to open people's eyes. I guess you can make a case that you prefer your government to be protected at all costs, that any threat to it must be something evil, you buy that talk about how dangerous ratling the cage is, how vulnerable it leaves you, vulnerable to barbaric hordes, it seems. This is not a knock on Anderson or anyone else, I sincerely feel surprised whenever I see that happening. Specially because the government, wherever you may be, is not actually an entity, its a structure that keeps changing, its not composed of the same people, so in theory it could be anything. Its not a sentient being, preserved throughout history. You have your Trumps and Temers and people like that today, but you could have the opposite in the future. Hell, you already see much more advanced governments today, in certain parts of europe. Stuff we can aspire to. So I never really got why you would feel like its your duty to "protect" the government power strutucture, against your peers. Instead of seeing it as something that should be there to serve, not rule, and that you could help to improve by thoughtful participation. Obviously, the climate today is tending farther and farther away from this ideal, that you could be a part, that the individuals are the important thing. Thats why people like Snowden play an important role, reminding us what we are loosing, or what people in power are doing in order to preserve their power, to rule us "more and better". 

 

Its not really a mistery why Snowden had to run. Just take a look at the way they crucified Manning. Poeple saw the injustice and pettiness, but we could only watch and nobody could do anything to stop that (apart from Obama, in his last moments). Assange also got the message. So did a lot of people involved in the NSA leaks at the time, I remember that. But sure, I guess a lot of people see them as traitors of the cause, dangerous people that had no right.  It is still surprising to see it though. Its shoot the messenger one on one. You would expect people to understand they are not the ones who commited the crimes that they exposed. But its not that simple, it seems.

 

It's a simplification that does not bear to comparison to real fighters who die for what they believe. Countless of journalists and whistleblowers from Russia, Azerbaijan never left to seek asylum and were killed under suspicious circumstances. And it's not like they are going to be killed if they stand before an official investigation. They are just whining how unfair life is.

To me Snowden, Assange just looked for benefits rather than truly uncovering the wrongs ​with good fatith​. Instead they ran to authoritarian/dictatorship regimes without even testifying in court. And in court is where the real battle lies.​ Not a melodramatic soap opera on Skype. By staying in Russia Snowden plays for The Empire of Evil. What credibility that has versus USA which has guarantees for whistleblowers?

Ecuador is a little different but essentially Assange just keeps going to reinvent the bicycle.

 

If Snowden had balls he'd be against the Russian Duma banning VPN on internet right now. In front of the whole world taking Russia to the Stone Age. Is that whistleblowing? No. This is a new dimension of hypocrisy friend. Lots of people died for freedom an peace in Europe and it will not be sold for a convenient and nihilistic version of morality given by Russian news outlets for some whiners who can't stand for what they said. There's a responsibility that a lot of people assumed for themselves and for which they died. 

 

What I can't stand is not what Snowden/Assange said. Everyone knows what the NSA does at least since the 90's and USSR has a long history of "exposing" the "decaying capitalist west". This time though though Russia flipped all mass media switches specifically antagonizing the US, as if Russia has an alternative.

 

On the objective side of abuses by the gov. this will probably cease when the dangers posed by Russia and other dictatorships wane a little. But there's still always Congress and the Supreme Court to have a say when things go beyond clear red lines. NOT when services like these in Russia even stop pretending to protect the public interest but rather their own wealth and power. That's the difference. Occasionally countries act beyond the UN Security Council veto of China or Russia to impose what is the right thing to do, because we can't afford to play by their rules. 


Edited by Anderson, 09 August 2017 - 11:23 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#372 Anderson

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 11:36 AM

On the whole whistleblowing trend it seems many of these people have some sort of goal to give an impression, to appease others to see things in their esoterical way that nobody else could. Then to retreat to a hermit, alienated, self-lamenting lifestyle and finding justifications for how things came out to be as such. But, whether they lead and create this public opinion honestly, or out of ignorance or even deliberately is not a motive for blaming them. That isn't my intention. Their contradictions and lack of proposals are their matter to worry. 

 

But seems that Stanislaw Lem in Solaris had in mind for people, fallible creatures that we are this condition as well. It's a long one but it's really worth it:

“We take off into the cosmos, ready for anything: for solitude, for hardship, for exhaustion, death. Modesty forbids us to say so, but there are times when we think pretty well of ourselves. And yet, if we examine it more closely, our enthusiasm turns out to be all a sham. We don't want to conquer the cosmos, we simply want to extend the boundaries of Earth to the frontiers of the cosmos. For us, such and such a planet is as arid as the Sahara, another as frozen as the North Pole, yet another as lush as the Amazon basin. We are humanitarian and chivalrous; we don't want to enslave other races, we simply want to bequeath them our values and take over their heritage in exchange. We think of ourselves as the Knights of the Holy Contact. This is another lie. We are only seeking Man. We have no need of other worlds. A single world, our own, suffices us; but we can't accept it for what it is. We are searching for an ideal image of our own world: we go in quest of a planet, a civilization superior to our own but developed on the basis of a prototype of our primeval past. At the same time, there is something inside us which we don't like to face up to, from which we try to protect ourselves, but which nevertheless remains, since we don't leave Earth in a state of primal innocence. We arrive here as we are in reality, and when the page is turned and that reality is revealed to us - that part of our reality which we would prefer to pass over in silence - then we don't like it anymore.”

​I'm just saying we need to see how our lives fit in all of this larger picture. This isn't some abstract thing. We live in all of it and we need a healthy balance. Things don't happen instantly in life. It all drags on in these bigger strategic decisions and turnarounds throughout which we bear and keep it together to keep going.


Edited by Anderson, 09 August 2017 - 11:49 AM.

 "I really perceive that vanity about which most men merely prate — the vanity of the human or temporal life. I live continually in a reverie of the future. I have no faith in human perfectibility. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active — not more happy — nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago. The result will never vary — and to suppose that it will, is to suppose that the foregone man has lived in vain — that the foregone time is but the rudiment of the future — that the myriads who have perished have not been upon equal footing with ourselves — nor are we with our posterity. I cannot agree to lose sight of man the individual, in man the mass."...

 

 

- 2 July 1844 letter to James Russell Lowell from Edgar Allan Poe.

 


#373 V-Man339

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 05:58 PM

Seeing Google become a trash fire due to a single (fairly well worded, cited and very centrist, pro-diversity memo) has not assuaged any of the fears this thread has given me.


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Click here for the crappy channel where that happens.


#374 Atomica

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Posted 13 August 2017 - 07:39 PM

Everyone knows what the NSA does at least since the 90's

Sorry, but I can't agree with this. People might have had their suspicions, but before Snowden's revelations if you tried talking to regular folks and bringing up the capability of the NSA to listen to phones even when turned off, or expressed despair at the amount of broad-spectrum surveillance they had on the general public and not just specific targets of interest, people would call you a crazy person, or tell you to remove that tinfoil hat of yours, or any other not particularly nice phrases. Now we have actual PROOF of such claims, rather than just speculation. This is quite important because you can now reinforce your concerns with data that are hard to refute.

 

Of course, whether regular people actually give a shit about such things is the problem. Given the fact that nothing positive seems to have changed since Snowden's revelations, I don't think it was worth the leak honestly. He's effectively ruined his life to reveal what the NSA are doing, but no-one has been charged (apart from him) and surveillance is still as strong as ever. It's one thing to be informed about the world, but it's horrifying when you realize that people don't actually give a damn when presented with such information. I'm not innocent in this myself though - I'm not going to give up my mobile phone or stop using Windows any time soon, but this is mostly due to their utility and not having them doesn't outweigh the negatives.


Edited by Atomica, 13 August 2017 - 07:42 PM.

Oh my God! JC! A bomb!


#375 lowenz

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 01:37 AM

Its always surprising to see this vilification of Snowden

'cause it's the "government" but if you swap "family" with "government" you'll know why: surprise no more!

You can't save people from being locally amoral (family, friends group, etc.), they want that connivance and the problem about the state is ONLY the "distance" between people and the "power".

So the vilification process of who "says the truth" is expected. A kind of ostracization.

 

In Italy we know it very well ('cause you know, we're sooooo lucky - irony - to have our shadow states of Mafia, Ndrangheta, etc. and they operate in the middleground between the classic state and the family/clan.....it's why they're so powerful and dangerously accepted by.....people )


Edited by lowenz, 14 August 2017 - 01:45 AM.

Task is not so much to see what no one has yet seen but to think what nobody has yet thought about that which everybody see. - E.S.





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