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#26 Fidcal

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 01:34 PM

btw notice that's a 50% increase chance of getting those ailments. So if there was 0.1% chance before, it says now there is 0.15% chance. But we don't actually know from that what the chances are, just the claimed increase

#27 Baddcog

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 02:15 PM

Well, then 25% of the people I know should probably have those conditions, or at least 10% with a 50% increased chance right?

And yet I know none.

I think living in an industrial nation gives you at least a 50% increased chance of lung issues.
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#28 jdude

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 05:00 PM

Baddcog I don't live in the USA so your claims of me and my brothers Canadian Medical Journals being nothing more than propaganda are ridiculous. I suppose we should ignore medical journals and studies if we don't like what they have to say. 50% of people know this ;) If your going to apply the curriculum of any negative marijuana side effects discovered after the Nixon era is propaganda and therefore false... well I think you can see the flaws in that reasoning.

I know plenty of people who smoke tobacco with no health issues, does that make it safe?

#29 Baddcog

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 06:13 PM

Tobbacco HAS been proven unhealthy and I garantee I can walk up stairs faster than anyone who smokes. I know people who do, I used to. It's fact.

And don't think Canadian Medical Journals are outside of Big Pharma's (you don't think they have a stake in Canadian Medicine too? They are one of the largest business' in the world and they pay lot's of money in bribery (ehem, lobbying)) reach and I'd like to see any article that attributes schyzophrenia to pot use, what a joke. That's the same fear mongering that has been used to make it illegal. In fact I'd like to know about any studies on the matter for edjucation purposes. It's impossible to come up with unbiased studies here in the US because the govt has FORBID them. And the testing they have done was nothing short of support for the laws, ie: we found that smoking pot kills monkeys (they had the monkey locked in a small glass cube and pumped smoke in the cube until the monkey died. smoke from banana peels would have killed it too if you cut off any oxygen supply).

The Wiki defintion of schyz

It most commonly manifests as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions, or disorganized speech and thinking with significant social or occupational dysfunction.

OK, all of the smokers including myself that I know aren't paranoid (well, maybe if you're scared of getting caught) delusional, I've only hallucinated on mushrooms and LSD, never pot, and we are all perfectly functional in social and occupation scenes. OK, disorganinized speech and thinking, WHEN you are stoned sure, but that fades within hours.

that article also points to substance abuse as a cause, and the page on substance abuse has many narcotics and alcohol listed but does not have MJ.


And I'm not talking book smart's here. This isn't stuff I've read. I've been smoking the shit for 25+ years. So a medical journal might state it causes those issues, the Bible might claim that God with throw you in a pit of lions. Both were written by men, possibly men with an agenda or who profited from doing so, both by men I have never met. Does that mean it's true or I should believe it? Especially when I have experience saying that it's not true?

You should u-tube and watch 'The Union'. It shows alot of the myths busted by actual Doctors, Lawyers, Historians...
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#30 jdude

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Posted 23 August 2010 - 09:42 PM

Okay I get it, if it claims pot can have adverse side effects it must be false because you like being high. If you hate how it's portrayed so much, and you hate the tyrannyof the US government, why do you live there?

edit: Here's come from the medical jounral I was talking about:



IQ:
http://www.cmaj.ca/c.../full/166/7/887

Respiratory effects:
http://www.cmaj.ca/c.../full/180/8/814

I couldn't find the article I was talking about but here's something related that cites the CMAJ and the BMJ:
http://www.digitalna...at/T333777.html

You don't have to believe it but all the info is staring you in the face. Tell me, do you personally know any doctors who have described to you how prescriptions work? If you do that would shed some light on your conspiracy theory of pharmacies controlling doctors.

http://www.cma.ca/

#31 Fidcal

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 06:34 AM

Well, then 25% of the people I know should probably have those conditions, or at least 10% with a 50% increased chance right?

And yet I know none.

I think living in an industrial nation gives you at least a 50% increased chance of lung issues.

I don't know what the chances are to begin with so I can't calculate the 50% increase in that chance. But taking a guestimate. Say only one in a thousand average non-potsmoker gets lung cancer. That means 0.1%. So say the increase chance is 50% then than means 0.15% which is 1.5 people in a thousand. So even if you know 1000 pot smokers you might know 2 with lung cancer or you might know none. You probably need to know 10,000 potsmokers and 10,000 non-potsmokers then you would know on average 10 of the non-smokers have lung cancer and about 15 of the pot smokers. But that's an average. You would need to know 100,000 to get a good sample. Even then, you might not know they have it if you know them casually or they might get it years later after the period you know them.

But all of the above is guesswork. For all I know 10 non-potsmokers in 1000 gets lung cancer and so 15 potsmokers in 1000 would (if true.)

#32 SneaksieDave

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 09:40 AM

Mmm... amusement that the author of the article is named Peter Fried.

As for pharmies controlling doctors, ya better believe it. They're called kickbacks and they can be big motivators for a greedy doc. At my former douchenozzle doctor's office, you could sit in the waiting room (for an hour <_<) and watch the pharmie reps in expensive black suits with briefcases come in, all smiles and friendly with the staff ("Oh hi Jim, he's with a patient but I'll let him know you're waiting...") and then after a 20 min meeting or so, he leaves and next thing you know you've got an appointment with a doc trying to push three new medications on you (for the most common shit they claim everyone has: asthma, depression, insomnia, allergies, acne, uncontrollable farting...).

As for protecting drug development interests, ya better believe that too, to the tune of patents galore and huge lawsuits (and perhaps even to the point of quasi-conspiracy). My degree is in chemistry and I worked for a pharmaceutical company for several years (before bailing on that BS and going for software instead) so I do know a bit about it.

As for legalization... not quite so black and white for me. I'm not really for recreational drug use, too much (well, that percocet and valium for the back injury was pretty fun...) but I've also watched people dying from cancer. Medicinal, definitely. Legalization? Possibly, if they can demonstrate it won't do too much harm (to society; the users can handle themselves). I'm kinda strict though, considering I think DUI offenders should have their licenses taken away, permanently. ^_^ My views have softened over the years though.


Edit: note that the second article puts forward that combined use of cigs and pot causes the respiratory problems, and that pot alone did not cause such problems.

Interpretation: Smoking both tobacco and marijuana synergistically increased the risk of respiratory symptoms and COPD. Smoking only marijuana was not associated with an increased risk of respiratory symptoms or COPD.


Edit: LOL! And the interpretation from the first article:

A negative effect was not observed among subjects who had previously been heavy users but were no longer using the substance. We conclude that marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligence.

Were those the articles you meant to link?

#33 Baddcog

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 11:07 AM

Well, I don't have time to go through all that info but I did a quick read of the reperatiory article and noticed this:

All editorial matter in CMAJ represents the opinions of the authors and not necessarily those of the Canadian Medical Association.

Which says it is NOT the opinion of tyhe can med assoc.


and this:

Interpretation: Smoking both tobacco and marijuana synergistically increased the risk of respiratory symptoms and COPD. Smoking only marijuana was not associated with an increased risk of respiratory symptoms or COPD.

This is easy to understand though why my text is super small now isn't. The test was combined TOBACCO AND MJ, remove tobbbacco from the equation and there is no resperatory effect. You gotta read that stuff better.

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#34 Melan

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 11:32 AM

As for pharmies controlling doctors, ya better believe it.


What about controlling the WHO, as it seems to have been the case with the H1N1 panic? B)

The next thing you know, they will be manufacturing a vaccine for a disease they created themselves. ;)
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#35 Baddcog

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 12:37 PM

As for legalization... not quite so black and white for me. I'm not really for recreational drug use, too much (well, that percocet and valium for the back injury was pretty fun...) but I've also watched people dying from cancer. Medicinal, definitely. Legalization? Possibly, if they can demonstrate it won't do too much harm (to society; the users can handle themselves). I'm kinda strict though, considering I think DUI offenders should have their licenses taken away, permanently. Posted Image My views have softened over the years though.



I think they should throw the book at DUI offenders too. I think by now it's well established fact that alcohol does impair every kind of judgement a human can make and decreases reaction times significantly. I have been run over by a drunk driver on my bicycle, and when I was a kid our car was sideswiped on a mountain pass in a snowstorm by a drunk.
It also makes people violent.

Still it's legal and everyone well knows the consequences on society when they outlawed it with the same scare tactics they used for MJ later on.
Crime went up, deaths from bathtub gin went up, they had gangsters in the streets with machine guns (sound like Mexico currently?). Doctors 'prescribed' alcohol (sound like the current medicinal MJ situation?). They never stopped it, they finally gave in to letting the people have what they wanted.

Legalization of MJ would have the same effects it did for alcohol. People could buy it from 'legitimate sources' instead of black market. Then the Govt gets taxes from it, the prices come down and there's not enough money in it to risk jail time so gang activity in that area decreases.
It would be regulated so kid's 'couldn't get it', not that we ever had a hard time getting it OR alcohol OR cigarettes as a kid, but they couldn't buy it, they'd have to find someone to break the law for them (which already happens).

As it is about 50% of the population uses MJ occasionally anyway. But where are all the reports of health problems, violent activities, innapropriate behavior... Sure, there's always the crackhead on 'Cops' who has a little MJ, or a drunk driver has some.. But how often does someone commit a crime because they smoked a joint, or beat someone up, doesn't happen, MJ makes you calm not violent.
It's not addictive (I can smoke all day long then not smoke for 6 months) so it doesn't have issues like meth, heroin or crack where people commit crimes for their next fix.
It also does not lead to more dangerous drug use as is often stated. Most smokers I know are pretty content with a mellow buzz, alot don't even like alcohol. People that get into things like Meth and Heroin have much deeper seated issues and would end up using those drugs whether or not they have tried MJ. And that population is still very small. The MJ using population is huge around the world.
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#36 jdude

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 05:04 PM

I think living in an industrial nation gives you at least a 50% increased chance of lung issues.

+

Interpretation: Smoking both tobacco and marijuana synergistically increased the risk of respiratory symptoms and COPD. Smoking only marijuana was not associated with an increased risk of respiratory symptoms or COPD.[sup]

=
possible big problem

I also just think about my close friend I had in highschool who started smoking pot on a regular basis and went from being a smart normal guy to a recluse who could barely understand what was going on around him most days, eventually not even graduating, probably because he was such a mess. This may not be the case for everyone but it certainly was for him.

@ SneaksieDave
Yea I thought they were interesting, I never said marijuana was evil or anything like that but it does have some negative side effects which activists tend to ignore in my experience.

#37 Baddcog

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:31 PM

Don't take offense to this jdude as none is meant.

But your posts show more niavete' about the subject than they do knowledge. Book smarts is fine and great, until it comes to real life experience and then it just doesn't match up.

You combine my quotes to make it look like smoking MJ and living in an industrial nation is going to increase respiratory illness when in fact it does nothing more than prove my point. That it's not the MJ that causes the lung problems, it's the smog and tobbacco, which combined can be very serious for sure.
--
it's common for people who can't make their point to say things like:

Okay I get it, if it claims pot can have adverse side effects it must be false because you like being high.


Sure I admit, I like to smoke pot. I like the mellow mood it gives me, I have chronic back pain and it helps alieviate that too. But don't think I'm some simpleton pot head hippy who is going to stick to my guns no matter what and claim it has no side effects because I want to get high.
Hell, I love alcohol too, but I'm no more an alcoholic than a junkie. I like the taste, I like a small buzz, but I can still admit it's dangerous, it causes liver disease, drain bamage, and makes people (including myself) complete fucking idiots is they have too much of it. But there is proof, I have seen it happen, I have experienced it.
Have you?

I have years and years of experience with it and friends who use it, etc... and I can tell you what I know from experience, most of what you read about it is hogwash. It's easy to swallow any pill they feed you, but it's alot harder to open your eyes and figure it out for yourself, and that's where real world experience comes in.

Maybe your friend's problems did have something to do with drug use, but I garantee he was drinking before/during/after the same spell and we all know how alcoholics function. It could have also had to deal with family issues, self esteem, etc... I don't know the kid but that sounds like the regular 'scare tactic' I've heard a thousand times. And yet I know plenty of people who smoked in High School and went on to become Lawyers and Doctors, etc.. and also know kid's that were straight as an arrow who have done nothing with their lives worth while.

If you hate how it's portrayed so much, and you hate the tyrannyof the US government, why do you live there?

That comment also shows that you are niave. I do hate the way big govt can mislead millions of people by spreading lies, how do you think we ended up in a 10 year war in Iraq/Afghanistan/Pakistan? Lies about Saddam having stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction that were never found. People believed it...

But it's completely niave to think someone can just 'up and leave their country'. Sure, if this was Nazi Germany I'd be out the door, but it's not that bad. You're just trying to drum up a stupid talking point.

Let's see, first I'd probably have to pay off all my debt, I'm sure there are laws to prevent people from up and leaving the country when they have debt.

Then I'd have to leave my friends and family. OK, I can still visit right, I mean it's not expensive to travel between countries. It's practically free.

Job, hhmmm, yeah, I'd need one. So then I have to get a work visa, quit my current job, spend alot of money packing, moving and go to say Canada to work for a few months. HOPEFULLY then they'd keep me on full time and I'd be granted residence. But I'd be freezing my ass off most of the year.

Or I could just do what I do, try to spread knowledge about the lies they been tellin' ya, get people to stop buying the products the sellin' ya...
Try to enlighten people to the truth and make this country better than it currently is.

But maybe that's stuff you gotta live to learn, I guess that's why I can talk about it like I know what I'm talking about.
Because I have.
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#38 jdude

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Posted 24 August 2010 - 07:51 PM

You seem to assume that substances effect all people in the same way. Real life experience of smoking pot and not having any adverse side effects doesn't mean that there aren't any even if you haven't heard of them. And if you were developing a mental illness you would probably not even realize it until something big happens. I just don't think it's reasonable to label anything contrary to your opinion that pot is great as propaganda. The impression I get from reading what you wrote is marijuana is a harmless miracle drug which isn't true. There's propaganda on both sides and I think yes I've probably bought into some, but so have you in terms of the benefits of it. But like I said before, if your using it to treat pain or something else that it can help with that nothing else can, then I'm all for it.

As for the comment about leaving your country, I was hoping it would make you reflect on how many countries have a much shittier situation than the USA's since all too often I hear people complaining that the US is becoming 'communist' or 'fascist' ect ect

#39 Melan

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 01:26 AM

I do know that a friend of a friend had some sort of hyper-sensitive reaction to MJ, and it turned him into a loon (he had to go on disability), so the problem exists. On the other hand, I also know multiple people who smoke now and then, but show no long-term negative effects. Never tried myself (MJ or tobacco), and don't want to.
Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

#40 Sotha

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Posted 25 August 2010 - 05:11 AM

Interesting discussion, with big problems with discussion technique.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Ad_hominem

But at any rate I'll put my personal opinion here:
In Finland people drink themselves to death or they smoke themselves to death.

Before dying, they cause huge health costs for the country. Drinking alcohol and smoking cigarettes is legal.

We do not need any more legal health problem aggravators.

And no, I do not know anyone smoking pot, but I know many people drinking or smoking themselves to the death. I'm sure legalizing something like MJ would result in problems in the population using the stuff resulting in even more health problems. I blatantly refuse to accept any arguments that states MJ is purely beneficial to the health. It cannot be.
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#41 lost_soul

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Posted 28 August 2010 - 06:11 PM

This is the sort of thing that makes me very paranoid.
http://www.chiark.gr...unbootable.html

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#42 Sotha

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:26 AM

At least some occurrences of this are with software which writes a signature to the embedding area which hangs around even after uninstallation (even with one of those tools that tracks everything the installation process did and reverses it, I gather), so that you cannot uninstall and reinstall the application to defeat a trial period.


Good god! This kind of shit is something which truly makes my blood boil.
Why is the world so full of idiots, who don't bother to do their homework properly, or who are simply assholes for it's own sake by sabotaging other software. What were they thinking!

Lesson to be learned: never risk your system integrity by installing trial-shitware.

When I become the Emperor, I'll outlaw deliberate or unintentional commercial sabotage on the penalty of public flogging.
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#43 lost_soul

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 09:21 AM

... and do they honestly think that people won't find out? Once the word gets out that $PROGRAM_X hides information in the boot sector, those who want to re-use the trial easily could. Heck, I used dd to clone my install of Debian to multiple machines and it is extremely easy... as long as you type correctly. :)

If I were in the business of offering trial software, I would store the information somewhere in the registry as a random series of letters/numbers determined at install time. This way, the user cannot find it, and one canot just copy the registry from one PC to another without potentially disastrous results.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.


#44 Tudor

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Posted 03 September 2010 - 05:33 AM

Facebook, the way for people to monitor eachother's lives and still feel they're doing something positive.

[translation party]

Facebook is your life, we look at the options, we are feeling positive.

#45 Summer

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 04:37 AM

But at any rate I'll put my personal opinion here:
In Finland people drink themselves to death or they smoke themselves to death.


Amen to that! Being Finnish myself I know just how true this is. People consider drinking a part of typical social interaction - which is bull.

When drunk or high are people really themselves? Or some exaggerated version of themselves?

Not having ever been drunk or high or smoked anything I guess maybe I shouldn't really have an opinion on this, and Finnish people tend to get very defensive about this. Dunno if people from other countries do...

As for Facebook, at first I got tons of adds and stuff from friends. After declining them time and again I'm glad people got the message. It's nice to know what your friends in far away places are up to - but if I can check that I bet some shady commercial organization and/or government can do the same. Blah. How come nothing fun or actually useful can ever get invented without some a**hole messing it up?!

Summer

#46 Sotha

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:33 AM

Amen to that! Being Finnish myself I know just how true this is.

Kappas! Kiva että täällä on muitakin suomalaisia!

People consider drinking a part of typical social interaction - which is bull.

Yep, there is actually this phrase, which goes: "joy without booze is pretension," which pretty much tells what's the situation in here.

When drunk or high are people really themselves? Or some exaggerated version of themselves?
Not having ever been drunk or high or smoked anything I guess maybe I shouldn't really have an opinion on this, and Finnish people tend to get very defensive about this. Dunno if people from other countries do...

Sometimes I'm convinced that finnish people are innately somewhat socially disabled, shyness seems to be some kind of national trait. People need some kind of social relaxant to be able to 'open up' and have fun. While I myself do drink alcohol, it is quite troubling that statistically large amount of finnish population glorifies drunkenness so much. Everything in moderation.

As for Facebook, at first I got tons of adds and stuff from friends. After declining them time and again I'm glad people got the message. It's nice to know what your friends in far away places are up to - but if I can check that I bet some shady commercial organization and/or government can do the same. Blah. How come nothing fun or actually useful can ever get invented without some a**hole messing it up?!

So far, I've been able to dodge FB altogether. I'm of that generation who can live without it, by I'm pretty sure that for younger folks you either are in FB or your social life is gone. Not much options for those who feel reluctant about it.
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#47 Summer

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:23 AM

Kappas! Kiva että täällä on muitakin suomalaisia!


Jep, kiva olla osana Thief-yhteisöä Posted Image


Yep, there is actually this phrase, which goes: "joy without booze is pretension," which pretty much tells what's the situation in here.

Sometimes I'm convinced that finnish people are innately somewhat socially disabled, shyness seems to be some kind of national trait. People need some kind of social relaxant to be able to 'open up' and have fun. While I myself do drink alcohol, it is quite troubling that statistically large amount of finnish population glorifies drunkenness so much. Everything in moderation.


It is unfortunate, really, since when you're talking to someone who's drunk, you never really know who they are until after they're sober. Feeling "the buzz" doesn't mean that what you say is automatically more interesting than when you're not.

So far, I've been able to dodge FB altogether. I'm of that generation who can live without it, by I'm pretty sure that for younger folks you either are in FB or your social life is gone. Not much options for those who feel reluctant about it.


Younger people...? Thanks, but I'm above thirty. Not a lot. But still. Posted Image But I use FB to keep in touch with old school friends who live far away and my baby sister whose goings-on I keep a stealthy eye on Posted Image Posted Image

Summer

#48 lost_soul

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Posted 08 September 2010 - 12:51 PM

Well, I just had to re-install Windows XP on a machine this morning. I completed the install up until it asked for the product key. Then I had to hard-power-off the machine because the key is way on the back of the machine and I couldn't access it while it was running. Of course the goons can't be bothered to put a "cancel" button in the dialogue to allow you to shut down your machine safely so you can get them their stupid product key. So, I resume and complete the install. Then I have to activate it, with no network drivers. I could have used Linux to go get the drivers, but I felt it would be better to call them and have a live operator help me activate it, rather than use any automated system. That way, it costs them as much money as possible. "Are you sure you want to be transferred to a live rep? I (the computer voice) can probably help you activate your product much faster."

Oh yes, yes I most certainly do. That way, you have to pay as much as possible for subjecting me to this totalitarian, invasive, pointless crap.

--- War does not decide who is right, war decides who is left.


#49 Fidcal

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Posted 09 September 2010 - 10:40 AM

That reminds me of when you get some company like your energy or phone provider rings you up to trick you into some extra service just say, "hold on a minute I'll see if I can find him..." then leave the phone off the hook and go to dinner. :laugh:

#50 Fidcal

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 10:20 AM

Saving Private Relationships. It's a bloody war out there...

http://www.physorg.c...a-behavior.html




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