About Choice

[Guest Guest]

Thanks, and good luck!

 

Oh and please do finish this would-be-great mod.

[New Horizon]

Thanks, and good luck!

 

Oh and please do finish this would-be-great mod.

You can count on it.

[Dram]

We'll make sure . Even IF New Horizon has to use his gloves to permanently disable all our legs, it will be finished .

 

--Dram

[TazmanianDevil]

I can't help it, but I have to throw my opinion on swords into the ring. I more or less agree with oDDity although I don't think I would unhappy if a sword was the only weapon used in the game. My style of gameplay is all stealth and no combat so I never used my sword to attack anything anyway. If I've got a weapon I never use, that doesn't really bother me.

 

That said, I always did find it odd and seemingly out of place that Garrett walked around with a sword instead of a dagger. A sword seems to imply that you expect to encounter heavy resistance that would require fighting skills, but a thief hopes never to be caught. If you are caught, then as oDDity mentions, something like a flash grenade would seem like a more likely tool for a thief to use to escape. A sword would also seem to be rather inconvienient to carry around if you're trying to slip through small spaces or climb over walls. As a thief, I'd be worried about knocking stuff over with it or clanking it on things (of course this whole idea kind of goes out the window when you think about your thief dragging around a sword, a bow, a pile of grenades, 300 lbs of art work, 1000 pieces of gold, candle sticks, books, potions, rope, etc.). A sword seems more appropriate in the hands of a knight and not a thief.

 

As for a dagger. I was bothered by the idea that the dagger was introduced in TDS as a means to dispatch your enemies. I like Garrett's philosophy which generally involves not killing people, but a knife doesn't have to have killing as its only purpose. A knife or dagger would be much more effective than a sword at cutting someones purse strings from their belt. You could use it to cut ropes or tear pictures out of their frames. If you want to make noise, flip it around and use the butt of the dagger to pound on the doors or whatever else it is you wish to bash. A dagger is something I would expect a thief to carry. If I want to bust something open and not worry about noise, I would expect a thief to use what's on hand like a chair or maybe grab a sword hanging over the fireplace.

 

But, we're not playing Garrett anymore, so we could decide that our thief has no scruples and will kill anything that moves. In that case, I still think such a thief would more likely choose to backstab people with a knife than carry around a sword. So, I would rather play a thief game with a dagger I don't use to kill people than with a sword I don't use to kill people.

 

But, this is all just my opinion and I respect anyone who wants to disagree.

[Guest Guest]

In some ways what you say is true but they've already included a short sword

 

Btw, I hate the dagger in TDS.

[Dram]

Taz, you have a good point, however (here's an idea), what about the rumours of zombies, tree-beasts, pagans, haunts, spiders, etc. I personally think that if I heard a rumour that zombies walk around the place where I'm planning to taff next, I would most DEFINATELY grab the sword any day over the dagger, the last thing you want is to be stuck against the wall when a tree-beast charges at you, yeah, i know, you could use a flashy. But the point is, a sword is much more appropriate in the world that Garrett lives in then a pissy dagger. Also, he could carry the sword on his back with the bow , though it is true that he carries so much crap that he must be Hercules.

 

But anyway, good point

 

--Dram

[oDDity]

You won't be able to kill undead wth a sword in our game, or a tree. Undead are already dead, so the only way to 'kill them is too blow them to pieces or magically woht holy water. Tree breasts are made of wood and would require an axe if anything to dispatch -= just try cutting down a tree with a sword and see how far you get. Wy wuld our thief want to murder pagans above anyone else?

The only target would be spiders, but carrying a weapon on the rare chance of meeting a giant sapider hardly seems sane. Spiders are easy kills anyway, you can evern club them with your BJ.

The dagger may have some minor miscellaneous uses for a thief, but it's primarily an assassins tool and would be used as such in the game.

[Dram]

You ever tried killing those spiders in T1/2 (or thievery)? Shit no, you would'nt be able to kill them with a piss-flop dagger (technically yes, but in practice, when those things get close....goodbye).

 

Look you get my point right? I mean, Imagine this, you've managed to taff a house, etc, but a guard saw your face. Flashing him won't make him forget, only one thing will: Death. Either way, Garrett would most probably much rather kill the guard and get away rather then get caught and be executed for thievery.

 

EDIT: Remember, he was in it for himself

 

AARGH!!! This bloody thread is going for too long!!

Edited February 6, 2005 by Dram

[oDDity]

He won't see ur thiefs face, because our thief wears a mask and hood.

[Dram]

Well, if our thief was Garrett, noone could miss that green eye. Though Gerrett is not our thief. No matter

[Vadrosaul]

Look you get my point right? I mean, Imagine this, you've managed to taff a house, etc, but a guard saw your face. Flashing him won't make him forget, only one thing will: Death. Either way, Garrett would most probably much rather kill the guard and get away rather then get caught and be executed for thievery.

 

Simple answer: That scenario would NEVER happen to Garrett

[Dram]

Simple answer: That scenario would NEVER happen to Garrett

Probably not, but he'd still rather be sure. I mean, would you go sailing alone on a one man raft without any insurance?

[Guest Guest]

I'd like the option to go through a map with only select weapons. (Bow only, dagger only, etc)

[TazmanianDevil]

Dram, I understand your point and if I knew I was going into a situation that had a bunch of monsters or beasts, then I might very well want to have a sword. In that case, I'm expecting to encounter heavy fighting resistance. I would expect that to be the exception though. Most of the time, as a thief, I would want to be sneaking through museums and mansions, not climbing trees wading through bushes.

 

As for killing spiders and such, I always used my bow for that because I never wanted to get close enough to them to be able to use my sword.

[Springheel]

Well, the thief will have a sword by default. Of course, any FM author can remove the sword from the equipment list if they choose. There may also be an option for the player to deselect the sword before beginning the mission. We have no plans for implementing a dagger though, as it is basically just a louder blackjack.

[New Horizon]

I'd like the option to go through a map with only select weapons. (Bow only, dagger only, etc)

 

The thing to remember folks is that since we are releasing a toolset, removal or addition of the basic features is up to the FM author. We can not ensure that one play preference or another will be accounted for. I'm sure there will be Fan Missions in the future that will feature this. Perhaps you can even mod some fan missions that don't play this way.

[Guest Guest]

I want the option to remove my EQ for any mission. I'm more tempted to be unstealthy if I have the means to kill. (Simply saying 'Don't use the weapons' doesn't work... I always seem to forget and start killing things.)

[sparhawk]

Don't use weapons WILL work if it is not a phrase, but actively supported by the engine.

[Tels]

Don't use weapons WILL work if it is not a phrase, but actively supported by the engine.

Just wanted to chime in some things about swords:

 

In T1, in the highest difficulty setting (and we all played this, right? Right? you couldn't kill guards or innocents, anyway.

 

So I always thought the sword was bloody useless, except for fun games.

 

So, what I _really_ would like is that on the loadout screen you can select your weapons (buy sword, or buy dagger, or both if you think you need it). If these things come with a weight-allowance, even better (if somebody thinks they need to carry around a big, heavy, bright, clunky sword - well, let them)

 

The dagger would be usefull to pry small chests open, or similiar "tool" related situations. Of course, prying it open would make a guard notice it, vs. opening it with a key or lockpick

 

Tels

[Guest Guest_Venus]

I am sooo pleased to hear about this mod... Doom is a great engine, way to go guys... n I hope it gets finished.

 

PLEASE!! PLEASE!!! Keep the opposition human. I hated monsters etc in thief. A real thief in these times would never encounter such things, even though ppl believed in it, but please... no monsters... I much prefer a human opponent..

 

On the subject of Daggers.. how about a throwing knife? I think it'd be cool to be able to throw a knife at an unsuspecting guard, and either wound or kill him, depending how accurate (skilled) you are at it. Plus, its a skill a thief would have. As for a model on it, SOF2 had the best knife throwing routine I've ever seen. Not this game true, but be great if you could model it on that routine...

 

 

Venus

[pakmannen]

PLEASE!! PLEASE!!! Keep the opposition human. I hated monsters etc in thief. A real thief in these times would never encounter such things, even though ppl believed in it, but please... no monsters... I much prefer a human opponent..

That would be up to the mission designer. If you are asking about our campaign which will be released after the toolset, then we are doing it the Thief way, that is, a mix between humans/monsters. Sorry.

[Guest Guest_medievalradley]

sword or dagger I have seen them both in many of the thief 2 fan missions I have played. its already been done. Both are Good and depending on how many times you may have to kill guards BIG GUARDS you may want a huge sword. many of the fan missions stretched the GAME either this way or That making each level fun and fresh and new. Making it an option or leaving it out all together FANS will Create there own if they really need it ...

 

BUT it would be nice if the Dark mod Teem would right in as many tricks and weapons and bombs and potions as possible.

 

PLUS I don't think that anyone started a game by creating all the stuff to go in it first. Didn't they create game spaces test spaces and then decide "hey that corner looks empty lets make a really cool shrubbery to go there" or "how will the player get to this area up here lets make a rope arrow"

 

when Looking Glass People Gave us the DROMED it allowed us to use items that where created fro the specific levels that came with THIEF the reason some things where called RAMEREZ_CHAIR or something like that is because most of the items in THIEF are made for a specific level.

 

so think about what infinite possibilities for Level storyline one may come up with and create all of them

Or create say 15 really cool levels with varying Themes and Loosely cohesive stories that take the Player on a vary cool journey through a interesting Back story Each level Stylized differently and containing all objects and cool stuff that would be in that area (like golden hammers in the Builders Temple and nice Chairs in the dining Room of Lord Constantinople)

once you have created all of your levels fully lighted and full of objects and objectives and each with its Toolkit and weapon-kit tailor maid for each mission. Then you will have Object_populated the same way they did when they shipped thief 1.

 

all in all they would not have put a chair in a room if it didn't look empty without it. And they wouldn't have put a blackjack in garrets pocket if they didn't want you to KNOCK OUT THAT GUARD WHILE HIS BACK IS TURNED... SO IF YOU DONT MAKE 13-15 LEVELS WITH OBJECT, WEAPON, AND AI OF VARIOUSE STYLES YOU HAVE NO LIMIT LIKE THIEF 1 AND 2 HAVE ON THE DEMAND FOR OBJECTS AND PEOPLE AND WEOPONS

 

BUY SAYING "HERE IS THE GAME" LOOKING GLASS HAD ALREADY DEFINED ALL THE OBJECTS YOU COULD GET AND USE IN YOUR DROMED. WE HAD TO BE SATISFIED WITH WHAT THEY GAVE US AFTER ALL THEY GAVE US ALL THE OBJECTS FROM THE GAME WE COULDENT EXPECT THEM TO CREAT EXTRA OBJECT FOR JUST INCASE WE NEED A SO AND SO OBJECT.

 

DEFINE YOUR LIST OF OBJECTS AND TOOLS AND AI NOT BY THE REQUEST BUT BY THE LEVELS YOU CREATE (EACH ONE BEING STYLIZED VERY DIFERNT BUT LOOSLY COHESIVE TO THE BACKSTORY) AND NESSESITY

[Ishtvan]

If I understand right, you're saying design the maps for our campaign and let the tools evolve from that.

 

The problem with this approach is: we want to release the editing tools FIRST so that the community can use them to build FMs. That's why our plan is to release just the toolset and one example map first, THEN work on our own campaign missions. So delaying the decisions on what player tools to include until we have done our campaign maps isn't really an option.