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DarkMod / DarkFate correspondence


ungoliant

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There seems to have been a lot of of mis-understanding as to what is being said and even who said it, ITT. Some of this seems to be translation issues, some of it assumptions of the views of the new visitors given the (badly) translated darkfate.ru forums and also a tendency to get defensive over a project some have sacrificed much for.

 

It's absolutely right that any feedback should distinguish TDM from FMs made for TDM, but I don't see much evidence here for outright TDM bashing. Criticism that FMs are boring (which I disagree with, I have to say) are simply opinion and are an opportunity to open the discussion about how they can be made better. They are not a sign that the general opinion of those coming from darkfate are all anti TDM itself, and this seems to have been the biggest mis-understanding.

 

If people are critiquing TDM itself, then it's probably justified to ask them to contribute and help improve the mod, but I don't agree that a critique of an FM, or FMs in general (unless the criticism is levelled at a core TDM feature) should be met with statements like "well make your own FM then" (as long as the criticism is somewhat constructive and not just 'your FM sucks lol').

 

Also, is it possible 'boring' is a mis-translation, I suspect this isn't actually the real intention of the complaint. Maybe 'disappointing' is the intended word? I can't imagine that a fan of Thief would class what is essentially the same gameplay (condensed into often smaller sized missions) as boring.

 

Almost everything in this thread is bound to go wrong somehow, so I'll better leave it.

 

Please don't, this is almost as entertaining as the TTLG / SomethingAwful forum crossover thread. rolleyes.gif

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Holy crap total epiphany. I totally just figured it out!! April is Aidakeeley!!!!!!! WB, I knew you couldn't stay away

Welcome to me two weeks ago.

 

BTW, I like the new Aidakeeley a lot better. The annoyance factor has disappeared, while the honest criticism has remained. That's valuable.

Come the time of peril, did the ground gape, and did the dead rest unquiet 'gainst us. Our bands of iron and hammers of stone prevailed not, and some did doubt the Builder's plan. But the seals held strong, and the few did triumph, and the doubters were lain into the foundations of the new sanctum. -- Collected letters of the Smith-in-Exile, Civitas Approved

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There seems to have been a lot of of mis-understanding as to what is being said and even who said it, Criticism that FMs are boring (which I disagree with, I have to say) are simply opinion and are an opportunity to open the discussion about how they can be made better. They are not a sign that the general opinion of those coming from darkfate are all anti TDM itself, and this seems to have been the biggest mis-understanding.

In fact, if somebody only states, that the FMs are boring, it directly means, that he is perfectly happy with TDM itself, as the FMs are unrelated to that. So even the most critic people over at darkfate somehow seem to approve of Dark Mod. Good job team! :)

 

And now Tels, please re-read Alex's posts, I think you got something wrong somewhere along the lines. Everything he said was cool. I believe he just meant to say, that we need to wait for the community to learn the tools, get experienced etc. The very same thing we ourselves always say in defense.

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Thanks for the welcomes really, but I am not Aida really.

 

As for the "FMs are boring" angle, well, that's insulting to the FM authors. But it's also insulting to those of us who know better.

 

There have been some great FMs. And the person most insistent that the "FMs are boring", it has been shown, is really just someone who gets frustrated if any thought (whether situational or the learning of new and improved practices) is required outside of the "accustomed" stagnant box that person has stuck comfortable in. This has been seen elsewhere as well...

Edited by Aprilsister
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i just say, if there is nobody who doing critics to your work, and everyone is saying: Man, great job, thats cool etc., then it's something wrong there. If there are people, who have different opinion, and aren't much fanboish like others, i actually would be happy to listen on them, rather trying to ignore or shout at them, that they should do things better.

 

Maybe some people here, are taking my posts to harsh :wacko: , cause im not using smilies everywhere :laugh: Maybe they helping to keep things cool a lot. B)

 

 

Edited by Alex-X-x
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It is not possible to have both simultaneously.

 

Actually it is, if there are enough FMs that both tastes can be catered for.

 

I think a lot of this kind of argument arises because there are only a few FMs for TDM at the moment. I'm sure if you picked 20 early Thief FMs and restricted comment and discussion to just those, you would get a very similar result.

 

And for my part, I do understand what LongShad is saying about FMs becoming frustrating, because in most of the (few) I have played so far, I have ended up wandering around without knowing what to do next. I would hate to think how much more difficult it would be if the clues were all in Russian and I couldn't read them.

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I always felt that Aida was an exaggeration, an online persona intentionally created to imbue some imagined character personality. I'm sure we all project these theatrical impressions of our intended personality whether we play "tough guy" or "too cool for school" or "sophisticated intellectual", Aida just seemed to be an extreme form of that. I would be highly amused if Aida and April are some game cooked-up by Springheel or... oDDity...? :laugh:

Please visit TDM's IndieDB site and help promote the mod:

 

http://www.indiedb.com/mods/the-dark-mod

 

(Yeah, shameless promotion... but traffic is traffic folks...)

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As for the "FMs are boring" angle, well, that's insulting to the FM authors. But it's also insulting to those of us who know better.

 

Ah, but no it isn't. If a player tells me that my mission was boring, I expect him to tell me in what way, and how it could be improved. Sometimes suggestions are quite foolish, and it is not worthwhile to get upset by them: they just tell something about the complainer. Sometimes the suggestions can be really good and the mapper can improve his missions in the future if he realizes previous mistakes and makes efforts to improve in those fields.

 

As for general complaints without any justification: they're worth nothing and the mapper should not get upset by those: not everyone can be pleased anyway, and there are always those who just want to whine, whine and whine.

 

i just say, if there is nobody who doing critics to your work, and everyone is saying: Man, great job, thats cool etc., then it's something wrong there. If there are people, who have different opinion, and aren't much fanboish like others, i actually would be happy to listen on them, rather trying to ignore or shout at them, that they should do things better.

 

I agree with this point. If people just say that a crappy mission is great, just out of politeness, the author can never improve his work. I excpect and assume people are truthful in their reviews about missions. Any other would be disrespectful.;)

 

Maybe some people here, are taking my posts to harsh wacko.gif , cause im not using smilies everywhere laugh.gif Maybe they helping to keep things cool a lot. cool.gif

 

That's the downside of text-based communication. Everyone cool, and be kind and nice. Let's virtually hold hands for a sec. :P And respect others opinions, even if you disagree. But opinions and complains always require some kind of justification and explanation. Otherwise they're not worth much to anyone.

 

And for my part, I do understand what LongShad is saying about FMs becoming frustrating, because in most of the (few) I have played so far, I have ended up wandering around without knowing what to do next.

 

Me too.

Clipper

-The mapper's best friend.

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7upMan

 

You interest my developments, or you just so talk?

 

Sarcasm? -_-

 

Nope, I'm not sarcastic at all. As I said, the are a very small handful of mappers out there who manage to build T2 FMs that can make you forget the horrible limitations of the Dark Engine. If you are one of these mappers (and judging from what you said, you seem to be), I'll applaud you. Besides, it is always interesting to look the the work of others to admire it (or to point out flaws).

 

 

 

 

And for my part, I do understand what LongShad is saying about FMs becoming frustrating, because in most of the (few) I have played so far, I have ended up wandering around without knowing what to do next.

 

The very thought that went through my head when I played Flakebridge Monastery. "Omigod, this thing is HUGE! Now, where do I have to go next? Where did I come from? I'm lost! Someone please friggin' get me outta here...!!!"

 

 

 

Welcome to me two weeks ago.

 

BTW, I like the new Aidakeeley a lot better. The annoyance factor has disappeared, while the honest criticism has remained. That's valuable.

 

 

So, what happened to the old AidaKeeley? I just know that one day (s)he suddenly stopped posting. Was there an argument of any sorts?

 

 

Edited by 7upMan

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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No, but I have played a lot of FMs, and only a very few manage to actually look good. Also, I remember what a huge disappointment the original T1/T2 graphics were even the games were just released.

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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You most definitely are directing him to take his response to a public discussion and hide it in some private corner

 

You might want to ponder the difference between an order and a suggestion.

 

IF one's intention is to encourage people to play TDM, lashing out in the public forums at someone who is 90% positive about TDM is probably not going to help achieve that goal.

 

IF one's intention is to invite people from another forum to register here to "discuss criticisms, improvements ... constructively" then getting emotional and attacking those who post criticisms is not going to help achieve that goal.

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IF one's intention is to invite people from another forum to register here to "discuss criticisms, improvements ... constructively" then getting emotional and attacking those who post criticisms is not going to help achieve that goal.

 

good point there, now it feels, like we were invited here, to being trolled about, this looks like thread is going to his end.

 

 

So what can we sum out of this thread after all? 

 

 

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anyway, it depends on level designer

 

And I think on this amicable note we can close the thread. Privyet, drus'ya!  :)

My Eigenvalue is bigger than your Eigenvalue.

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Sotha

 

Exactly.

 

Each individual should be able to say what he wants to say and say it in front of everyone. If it is utterly foolish and/or not worth commenting on it will be seen as such by those who see it as such. If it warrants comment, then let those, those who deem it so, comment.

 

There is no need for adults to react to anything said with anything more radical than to choose how to respond in kind; no need to hide things away, implement silly artifices such as "ignore buttons", close things down, insidiously wrangle a posse, break out the scarlet letters, or otherwise react reactionarily.

 

LongShad

 

Yeah, i'm too no smile-fan.

 

Yeah, they are mostly goofy. But I think with the literal and cultural sketchiness here, the translation problems, using them will help.

Edited by Aprilsister
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Ah, now I remember who aidakeeley is. :rolleyes:

 

I guess Sotha wins:

 

Heh. I doubt it. Clearly he enjoys posting in the style he does and I suspect some petty forum arguments would not change that.

Nope.

 

He'll be back.

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