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Thief 2 / SS2 / Deep Cover Source


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#51 stumpy

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 10:31 AM

Does the system shock code in part still belong to irrational and EA own the system shock name, you know EA can be really nasty when it comes to infringements to its copyright.

#52 lost_soul

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:19 PM

I have no control over ANYONE, but I would personally prefer it if the TDM developers didn't even talk about or look at the internals of the Thief source code. We wouldn't want any corporate suits to come down on TDM with accusations of copying code or anything like that. Remember when ReactOS had to do a complete code audit? (Wikipedia.org) This process set back the project, probably by years. All it would take is one disgruntled Thief fan...

I would also remove all links to files relating to the Thief code from this topic if I were an administrator for TDM's own protection.

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#53 Serpentine

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:32 PM

Eh, what... :/

#54 New Horizon

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Posted 17 December 2010 - 02:43 PM

I have no control over ANYONE, but I would personally prefer it if the TDM developers didn't even talk about or look at the internals of the Thief source code. We wouldn't want any corporate suits to come down on TDM with accusations of copying code or anything like that. Remember when ReactOS had to do a complete code audit? (Wikipedia.org) This process set back the project, probably by years. All it would take is one disgruntled Thief fan...

I would also remove all links to files relating to the Thief code from this topic if I were an administrator for TDM's own protection.


I think you're over reacting.

If they want to accuse of us such things, they will go ahead and do it. The code is out there for all to see.

Our code goes back a good 5 years. Long before this code was leaked. Our mod has been publicly available for over a year as well. It's also not like you can simply copy / paste code from Thief into TDM...that's not exactly realistic. From what I understand, Thief is written in C...the D3 engine is C++.

Relax.

#55 Chi Haotian

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Posted 19 December 2010 - 08:07 PM

The last thing we need is accusations that the Dark Mod is derived from stolen copyrighted material.

It's not stolen.

And there won't be a problem if TDM borrows concepts from DarkEngine code. Concepts in the field of AI, perhaps?

#56 Chi Haotian

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Posted 20 December 2010 - 10:28 PM

Or, perhaps, the reverse is possible - TDM's developers can help in improving Dark Engine. Surely, Dark Engine could use much of what has been come up with for the Dark Mod.

#57 nbohr1more

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:28 AM

I suspect that any Dark Mod convergence with any Thief "source code" project (OPDE?) would have to be well after Doom 3 has been made Open Source (and by other interested parties). The current team can barely keep-up with TDM itself.

If anything like this were ever to happen, this would be my speculation about it's life-cycle:

1) Doom 3 goes GPL
2) "Other interested Id Tech 4 enthusiasts" add features such as Light Maps and more flexible map construction methods that would make the mission converter less of a project.
3) OPDE is completed and plays Thief fan missions. All Thief commercial assets are replaced (textures, voices, etc).
4) The OGRE renderer in OPDE is replaced with the Id Tech 4 renderer
5) OPDE adds Id Tech 4 physics (or whatever physics may have been integrated into Id Tech 4)
6) OPDE adds Id Tech 4 sound
7) OPDE adds Id Tech 4 SDK (AI, Entity Management, Scripting, etc) and begins moving AI code there
8) A billion years later... All OPDE AI code runs from within the Doom 3 SDK framework
9) Code is ported into The Dark Mod as a legacy mode

That's my estimation of the scope of these "wishes". I'm sure someone will come along and correct my guesswork. ;)
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#58 New Horizon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:06 AM

Or, perhaps, the reverse is possible - TDM's developers can help in improving Dark Engine. Surely, Dark Engine could use much of what has been come up with for the Dark Mod.


:laugh:
The folks looking at the Thief source code will do just fine on their own. I haven't an exact head count, but I'm pretty sure they have more programmers on hand than we do. I'm baffled to see all those programmers jump out of the wood work, our requests for help over our 6 years in development lead me to believe there were no programmers in the Thief community.

They aren't really looking to improve the Dark Engine at this point, so much as...get it to compile...and then get it working on modern hardware without all the bandaids.

#59 Chi Haotian

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:31 AM

Well, Dark Engine is the vanilla Thief, and people feel more loyalty to it, hence more people were moved to help with it. The Dark Mod will always remain number 2 in people's minds, being a mod and having this TDS-ish feel about it.

#60 New Horizon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 08:43 AM

The Dark Mod will always remain number 2 in people's minds, being a mod and having this TDS-ish feel about it.


You have to reaching pretty far to find much that is TDS'ish about TDM. lol TDM plays more like T1 / 2 than TDS ever did.

#61 Chi Haotian

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:05 AM

It is also quite resource-heavy, especially compared to T1/2.

It's a great idea to have the two projects cross-pollinate each other; this way the other programmers will see how closely they're related, and when Dark Engine improvement hits a plateau, they'll pay more heed to the Dark Mod. Switching gears back and forth this way is also a great way of idea-generation.

#62 New Horizon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:40 AM

It is also quite resource-heavy, especially compared to T1/2.

It's a great idea to have the two projects cross-pollinate each other; this way the other programmers will see how closely they're related, and when Dark Engine improvement hits a plateau, they'll pay more heed to the Dark Mod.


Of course it's resource heavy, you can't compare the performance of an engine from 10 years ago to a more modern engine. Idtech 4 is rendering much more on screen than the old Dark Engine. Update dark engine to handle high res textures with bump maps, specular and real time lighting...and we'll see how well it runs. lol

As I said though, the Dark Engine 'improvements' have nothing to do with updating the engine to use HDR, bump maps, or any high end stuff. The goal is to get the source code to compile, then fix the bugs that make it difficult to get the game working on modern hardware. This is their core goal.

Dark Engine Enhancement to modern standards will be a completely separate project from the current Dark Engine 'preservation' project....and at this point, none of the people involved even have that on their radar.

All that being said, the two engines are quite different structurally. What works for one might not work for the other. Dark Engine being written in C and IdTech 4 being in C++ doesn't help either.

#63 Springheel

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 10:17 AM

when Dark Engine improvement hits a plateau, they'll pay more heed to the Dark Mod


I think this is highly unlikely.
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#64 Aprilsister

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:45 PM

The Dark Mod will always remain number 2 in people's minds, being a mod and having this TDS-ish feel about it.


Not so. And not so.

There will probably always be some people whose minds have permanently fossilized, sure. And others that will slowly, only slowly, catch on. And quite a few that will need a few of their herd to stumble forward to start the stampede.

But eventually most of the "people" will figure it out and stop fucking around with that flawed old gem...

Most of those people are after all Thief fans -- and that must surely be sign of some sort of above average intelligence (if even only slightly so).

It's a great idea to have the two projects cross-pollinate each other; this way the other programmers will see how closely they're related, and when Dark Engine improvement hits a plateau, they'll pay more heed to the Dark Mod. Switching gears back and forth this way is also a great way of idea-generation.


No. It's a silly waste of time to messing with that fragmentary, old gem. The best thing, of course, is to focus and build on this project.

Of course.

#65 New Horizon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 12:58 PM

No. It's a silly waste of time to messing with that fragmentary, old gem. The best thing, of course, is to focus and build on this project.

Of course.


It's statements of that type that piss people off and make them not want to try TDM at all. :angry: It even pisses me off.

There is room for BOTH platforms. I'm a HUGE fan of the original games.

I most definitely want people to work on preserving the Dark Engine...and eventually updating it. It's the original game, and it must be preserved. I also hope that FM's continue to come out for it.

At the same time, I hope people are open minded enough to accept TDM on it's own merits, but not as something that is barging in to replace the original games.

My original comments have nothing to do with whether or not people use Dark Engine, I was merely stating that a 'helping hand' throughout our five years of development would have been appreciated.

There IS room for both!

#66 Aprilsister

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 01:33 PM

It's statements of that type that piss people off and make them not want to try TDM at all. :angry: It even pisses me off.


So?

That's fine. You play pissed off. You worry about people who are so shallow that they will not want to try TDM at all because of something I said. It's a ridiculous and petty-minded thing you attribute to these people. If there are people who will be made to not try TDM at all because of something I said, which has NO ACTUAL (see I can type in all caps too, and break out the angry face :angry: and get bold) BEARING AT ALL ON HOW GOOD TDM IS... then those people are INDEED HUGE fools. Why do you want to insult so many people by attributing such pettiness to them?

I will continue to assert that TDM is the best thing going as far as Thief development and progress goes... You continue to play at worrying about people who you obviously really have no respect for.

#67 New Horizon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 01:41 PM

:laugh:

Right on cue. You never fail to please!

#68 Aprilsister

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 01:52 PM

I do aim to please.

...I sort of fancy myself a diplomat, even.

#69 Chi Haotian

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:08 PM

There IS room for both!


There must be. I've always understood TDM as something done in the absence of the Dark Engine source code for the original games, as in, "Eidos won't release the source code, so we took Doom 3's engine and made a total conversion mod." Now the starting premise has changed.

These aren't the projects that exclude each other (as the real Dark Engine does OPDE), but they should enrich each other, if only conceptually.

Although, you're right, we're yet to see them take it off the ground. I wonder how they'll do without several header files missing. (I hope they include that OPDE guy in the works, as by now he should have developed the clairvoyant skill of seeing the unseen.)

Edited by Chi Haotian, 21 December 2010 - 02:11 PM.


#70 New Horizon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:17 PM

...I sort of fancy myself a diplomat, even.


Now...lets not get carried away. ;)

I've always understood TDM as something done in the absence of the Dark Engine source code for the original games, as in, "Eidos won't release the source code, so we took Doom 3's engine and made a total conversion mod."


No, originally our project began because it didn't look like we were going to get an editor for TDS, but the Editor was released and we continued. Now the source code is out there for the original games, but we'll continue.

#71 Chi Haotian

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:27 PM

No, originally our project began because it didn't look like we were going to get an editor for TDS


*Sg3c1906.wav*

#72 Chi Haotian

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 02:36 PM

But eventually most of the "people" will figure it out and stop fucking around with that flawed old gem...


Not before they make it un-flawed. And not the least part of the fun is finding a way to do it, not just the result.

#73 Aprilsister

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 03:20 PM

Now...lets not get carried away. ;)


:laugh: they're coming to take me away ha ha hee hee ha ha :laugh:

(but seriously, slightly sorry if I did get carried away there)

And not the least part of the fun is finding a way to do it


Okay that's fair enough. If you are approaching this purely as an exercise in hacking it might be fun. Jerking off is a lot of fun too; but it is just jerking off.

#74 Chi Haotian

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 03:26 PM

No similarity here whatsoever. Problem-solving is the real deal, the White man's passion.

#75 7upMan

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 03:37 PM

So?

That's fine. You play pissed off. You worry about people who are so shallow that they will not want to try TDM at all because of something I said. It's a ridiculous and petty-minded thing you attribute to these people.


Yeah, give us the Aida, bring it on! -_-

Jerking off is a lot of fun too; but it is just jerking off.



So you ARE a guy, after all. Though I never could picture you as a gal.
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