Seasons Constest Preliminary

[nbohr1more]

I have discussed the some general guidelines for this contest and was advised to open a thread to hear some opinions.

 

Here are my preliminary thoughts regarding this contest:

 

Contest length: 3 months

 

All entries must have easily identified "seasonal" characteristics.

 

All "Summer" entries should be daylight maps unless the author can furbish enough proof that their night mission is happening in the Summer (desert locale, skimpy attire on AI?, etc).

 

Some arbitrary size limit?

 

I thought about having a clause for Campaigns:

 

"If authors collaboration with other authors to produce a multi-mission campaign, the best mission from the campaign will be evaluated against the best single maps."

 

(The best compromise to produce "No extra advantages but no penalty for this approach")

 

Lupine from Rage3d has expressed positive interest in being involved but has, understandably, offered his concern that it may take more than a week from his initial notification (last week) to involve any vendors that could offer some prize. This is not an essential feature to the contest but is more of an attempt to entice the Doom 3, Dromed, and "the mapping community in general" to try out this mission creation platform.

 

 

Please post any thoughts, preferences, things that would make or break this contest for you?

 

(You may also let me know, early, if you already intend to participate.)

[Sotha]

Contest length: 3 months

 

Great! Enough time to do great deeds.

 

All entries must have easily identified "seasonal" characteristics.

 

Okay.

 

All "Summer" entries should be daylight maps unless the author can furbish enough proof that their night mission is happening in the Summer (desert locale, skimpy attire on AI?, etc).

 

Grumble grumble.. That is quite artificial and non-fun limitiation; all summer maps must be day missions? C'mon, this is a sneaking game. If daylight missions won't ruin gameplay (no places to hide), they ruin immersion (tree in plain daylight has a shadow so dark you can hide in it). Also the difficulty with the seasons theme is that we do not have good assets for other seasons than summer. No yellow leaf trees, etc. So basically there will be

• Summer missions (normal TDM missions seen so far)
• Autumn missions (normal TDM missions seen so far with rain)
• Winter missions (new kind of missions with snow...)

 

But maybe the contest will coax the author to create seasons-textures and particles. That would be nice.

 

Some arbitrary size limit?

 

Not required: 3 months is limitation enough. To avoid never finishing contest entries, maybe a few word describing the map size: "small/medium map." Glenham Tower for example is this size category, and well completeable in few months time.

 

I thought about having a clause for Campaigns:

 

"If authors collaboration with other authors to produce a multi-mission campaign, the best mission from the campaign will be evaluated against the best single maps."

 

Okay. Maybe just say that single maps only to make sure each author are working on their own thing, and not that two super authors collaboratively create a single super mission. Surely the single missions prepared for the contest can be a part of existing campaign, ie. if I participate, the mission I enter the contest with CAN be a part of the Porter series?

 

Lupine from Rage3d has expressed positive interest in being involved but has, understandably, offered his concern that it may take more than a week from his initial notification (last week) to involve any vendors that could offer some prize. This is not an essential feature to the contest but is more of an attempt to entice the Doom 3, Dromed, and "the mapping community in general" to try out this mission creation platform.

 

Cool.

 

Also, the rules need to state that the contest can be only entered with a mission which building has started AFTER the contest was announced. Just to make sure everyone are on the same starting line. That would be fair, I see it now.

 

 

(You may also let me know, early, if you already intend to participate.)

 

Nope, not participating. I find the mission theme very difficult, I see no way how to make something cool and unique with seasons, unless it is a winter mission. But I wouldn't have time anyway, so...

[Tels]

Apart from being neckdeep in code and thus have limited time, the contest also runs during my holidays, family holidays (easter) and some important exam for me.

 

Plus the entire "seasons" thing doesn't really inspire anything in me - cannot find a reason why the season of the mission should be important - in all the ideas/stories I have, the season could be easily interchanged. Except if you make a winter map, but I guess almost everyone else will make either autumn or winter because they are the most easily recognized and don't involve daylight. How would you decide if it is spring or early summer or late summer? And would it matter for the rest of the mission?

 

So it is very unlikeley that I will participate.

[nbohr1more]

Well that's two nays.

 

The contest start has not been defined yet so if you need me to delay it, say the word. That would give Lupine more time to seek vendors to sponsor.

 

The theme is primarily an outgrowth for the desire for "Daytime missions" and "Snow" mission (two of the most popular). I agree that a season, of itself, isn't enormously compelling but neither is a theme-less "Christmas Contest" where entrants must enter by said day.

 

I still feel whatever mappers come up with will be varied and excellent.

[Jesps]

A spring mission could be full of flowers. I'm somewhat positive on the idea of a seasons contest. I have had an idea for quite a while that would fit the theme perfectly.

[nbohr1more]

Alright.

 

Jesps is on-board with this contest already.

 

Who will join him?

 

[STiFU]

I agree that a season, of itself, isn't enormously compelling but neither is a theme-less "Christmas Contest" where entrants must enter by said day.

I agree too. What did you say again about revoting between dark secret and seasons?

[nbohr1more]

Lets put it this way:

 

I was a pretty good artist in High School to the point that I was bored with drawing pictures as I could implement almost anything I imagined.

 

My kid sister drew a scribble on a page that reminded me of some visual concept.

 

I transformed the scribble into a decent new drawing and was invigorated.

 

The contest theme merely needs to be the scribble that the mapper uses to forge ahead.

 

It can even be a terrible idea because that will inspire mappers to find ways to bend the rules creatively.

 

Both the Seasons idea and the Secret idea are so generic that almost anything could pop-up.

 

At least if we forced mappers to use v1.03 features, or include a triangle building, or have a circular foot patrol, or include a balance beam spanning two buildings, etc... That would constrain the nature of the contest. But those types of specifics seem to be too niche to gain democratic approval.

 

We have a vote winner, unless more folk would come out of the woodwork to say otherwise?

[Sotha]

What did you say again about revoting between dark secret and seasons?

 

Uh.. Surely we cannot start revoting again? That would look like the EU Bosses did not like the previous democratic result, so they keep revoting until they get the wanted result. Not good. I think we are stuck with seasons now.

 

Of course we could loosen the theme a bit: it remains Seasons, but any interpretation of a "season" is respected, even the normal summer season seen in 90% of our missions.

 

In practice it would be an ordinary mapping contest with some mild emphasis on not only the seasons (winter,summer,etc), but seasonal activity ("pickpocketing spree during harvest celebrations", "a tale of the nameless monster that eats children during the winter", "Builder prayer month (season) gives a good opportunity for the thief", "The starting summer is the prophecied Summer of The Bloodlust Fever", etc.).

 

That would give the mappers more possibilities. Season is something more that just looks, it can be plot as well.

 

Just do not make any silly limitations that summer map must be a daylight map, please!

[Briareos H]

Votes massively changing at the last minute, vague handful of lukewarm mappers awaiting the instructions then asking to change the theme as soon as the instructions arrive? This contest is starting really well.

Also " the difficulty with the seasons theme is that we do not have good assets for other seasons than summer " - what is that ? Most contests on TTLG end up with people creating custom content to fill theme requirements. I'd even dare to say that one of the goals for Dark Mod contests should be the creation of new assets. If the theme is not inspiring - fine. But if you find it too difficult something is wrong. Indeed, "Dark Secret" will be perfect for mappers who want to make the same mission as everyone else and then throw nasty grimdark readables and a secret passage or two.

[Briareos H]

I'm being an asshole sure, but my goal is not to shit on the contest. I just expected more people to be active, involved and not afraid to sweat.

[nbohr1more]

Let's be realistic.

 

Both "Dark Secret" and "Seasons" are wide-open enough that anything could be the result.

 

There's no reason to have any big antipathy towards either. They are canvases.

 

Thus far the restrictive element is time.

 

I was hoping that size would also be defined.

 

If anybody has a really great restriction to add, I will be all ears.

 

If a Team Member wants to bulldoze the whole enterprise and lay down a really quirky concept, I would be cool with that too.

 

The daylight contest voters may register their objections to the removal of a summer-daylight requirement now

[Briareos H]

I agree that strong requirements often lead to ingenious circumventing, but that's not always the case.

If indecise mappers start to think "those requirements are silly and arbitrary" instead of thinking "what if...?", they might give up on the contest already. Usually, one or two strongly motivated mappers behind the contest, its theme, and requirements are enough to push everyone up. Not the case here.

[Sotha]

Also " the difficulty with the seasons theme is that we do not have good assets for other seasons than summer " - what is that ? Most contests on TTLG end up with people creating custom content to fill theme requirements. I'd even dare to say that one of the goals for Dark Mod contests should be the creation of new assets.

 

Creating new assets is a big burden to the workload. I've created new models and textures for my missions and it took a lot of time. In the end I got them in the map, they took a lot of time and they were inferior to the standard TDM assets.

 

If there is a contest with 3 month time limitation, expecting the mappers to create their own high quality assets is just insane. You can certainly be sure that new mappers will be totally overwhelmed. When I was a new mapper, the DR itself would have been overwhelming if I had to create something with it in 3 months.

 

I just expected more people to be active, involved and not afraid to sweat.

 

You expect others to not be afraid to sweat. Are you gonna contribute to this? You have not stated this. If you are not contributing, how can you expect others to sweat?

 

This contest seems to be provoking bad taste in peoples mouth as seen in the replies. This is truly a shame. A contest should start with happy enthusiasm and not like "let's bulldoze this."

 

The biggest problem here are the people who discuss about the contest (I apologize, but I truly feel this way. And I include myself in the problem). Everyone gets their say. That means zillions of preferences and different approaches. Everyone is right in some way, how to choose the correct approach? Someone will be pissed or sad that their preference were overlooked.

 

For the sanity of all, I suggest the following:

• Only the people who are really going to map for the contest enroll and then discuss about the topic.
• Those who are only gonna yell their opinions from behind the lines without no intentions of contributing should refrain from participating in the discussion. Or make it clear with their opinions whether they are going to contribute or not.
• The contribution amount of the opinion stater should affect how much his opinion is taken into account.

For the future I suggest the following:

• Say that there will be a mapping contest.
• A contest leader is chosen, whose word is law in terms of the contest.
• Get enrollment for mappers
• Enrolled mappers form a panel of gentlemen and ladies who decide nicely the contest topic.
• Community can give proposals which the panel can use to decide the topic.
• But the panel makes the final decisions.

With these remarks I have identified myself as a person with no intentions of contributing to the contest and therefore I will refrain from participating in the discussion, unless someone asks specifically something from me.

 

I just want to see this thing work without people getting upset. Frustration kills motivation. Death of motivations kills the contribution.

[Fidcal]

That's probably a good plan for the future Sotha. But for now this is what has happened. There has been discussion and a vote and seasons won. Now an entry thread is started for a defined seasons contest. Some minor discussion and mods are OK but ultimately the organizer says OK, this is my decision. If there are only 3 entrants so be it. If there are none, so be it. If nobody likes the organizers contest that is tough. He's done the best he can using a subject that won the vote. Anyway, that's that contest out of the way. Start again with another. It's not a disaster if only a single person completes the contest and wins by default. Hey - that's one extra FM to play. Someone takes the initiative and says this is my contest. Who's in? Who's not? Otherwise you'll discuss forever and you will never get everybody to agree.

 

As for daylight I see no problem. I see a serious problem if we are not creative enough we can't have an interesting daylight FM! Hey - there's a subject for a complete contest. I'm damned sure I could make a decent strong sunlight daylight FM. Create lots of things to hide behind and time to move through exposed areas. It does not all need to be outside. Make lots of open buildings, stables, barns, street arcades, where there are deep shadows to hide.

[Briareos H]

You expect others to not be afraid to sweat. Are you gonna contribute to this? You have not stated this. If you are not contributing, how can you expect others to sweat?

 

I think you know better than starting the debate about expectations from artists/creators. Of course I expect mappers to give what they believe is their best. I expect them to be demanding with themselves and I will hope they find fun in all that. What finds me in despair is the fact that I don't find many people involved showing motivation or joy. Holy shit, all I've been saying is caused by the negativity and the absence of people posting "whee come on guys let's all do this". And I think it ties somehow with your point about new mappers being overwhelmed. IMO, mappers are a driving force who have to shape the contest and already be mature enough to know what they want and how they can fit the theme without the time or know-how for new assets (I didn't say everyone should include new assets, I said it should be a goal - goals are made to be pursued, not always attained).

 

 

I have already stated that I won't participate in this contest. As for the rest of your points, I agree. But they are valid only when people are not passive.

 

As for daylight I see no problem. I see a serious problem if we are not creative enough we can't have an interesting daylight FM! Hey - there's a subject for a complete contest. I'm damned sure I could make a decent strong sunlight daylight FM. Create lots of things to hide behind and time to move through exposed areas. It does not all need to be outside. Make lots of open buildings, stables, barns, street arcades, where there are deep shadows to hide.

 

 

I'll have no say in the "daylight theme" - afraid it might be a bit restrictive - but I loved reading that.

Edited February 2, 2011 by Briareos H

[Fidcal]

It meant to limit to an idea but it won't be overwhelmingly restrictive though. It's not all about running through sunlit open meadows with city watch in full chase. I guess I'll have to build a corridor in a gloomy old house with dark shadows and sunlight streaming through tiny windows and post a screenshot to show how effective it can be. Down into a dark cellar with sunlight pouring through overhead grills. Effectively the mapper is replacing torches and candles with imaginative openings to daylight.

[Aprilsister]

You should all listen to me.

 

1. Because I'm always right.

2. Because I've no agenda other than to get the best set of missions and the most participants.

3. In the end you will be glad you stopped wasting time quibbling and got on with my correct ideas and ideals.

4 Goto 1

 

Do the werebeast back-story/origins thing and let the honor of determining that bit of canon be your reward.

 

You have a ~month to conceptualize while Lupine (coincidence? I think not!) and nBohr get some possible buzz going...

 

And then 2-3 months to build.

 

You're welcome. And have fun.

 

[Springheel]

Instead of using the theme as some kind of limitation (you must do x), why not just build it into the voting? "Best use of seasonal theme" could be a significant part of the voting process. So mappers can make any kind of map they want, essentially. But creative use of seasons will give them a better chance of winning.

 

That approach should be taken regardless of what the theme is. It should be a carrot, not a stick.

[lost_soul]

For the record: I couldn't map my way out of a grocery bag.

 

I personally am not too picky on what a contest would be about. I think we all share the same goal: to have more missions to play.

[Baddcog]

^that. (Spring's post)

 

And to anyone who says a good daylight mission can't be made , well that's hogwash. There are several T2 maps in daylight that are great imo. Melan's Method and Stowaway (one of them, there are 2 I think).

 

Daylight certianly offers the most 'unique' setting and towards a score bonus a well done one could go a very long way. At the moment I read 'summer should be daylight' I felt it was a bit restrictive, but I do think it's a good way to enforce that season, as spring could look almost the same anyway, and summer does have longer daylight hours.

 

The way I see it is it leaves the story line wide open, and face it, storyline wins contests. So instead of every map having a 'dark secret' which could be redundant every map will have whatever plot the authors chooses.

 

It's actually quite unlimited this way and authors should be happy.

 

Seasons is just like the vert contest. Vertical was a big part of score, so would how well you pull off a season. But fun/gameplay/story are still the majority of the contest.

 

If you want standard nightitme, well Spring is a good option, add some small new growth vegetation, maybe rain, or water puddles to signify recent rainfall.

------------

here's a season breakdown as I see it. I'm sure others could add more (instead of trying to subtract)

 

Spring- rain, flowers, early vegetation, maybe little patches of snow in corners, plowed dirt, light food supplies, notes about how cold last winter was, how food is low, how a Baron is overcharging for it.

 

Summer- sunlight (this could still be fairly dark outside, dawn to dusk), Not as many lit lights inside, but bright light coming in through windows to avoid, lots of vegetation, growing gardens,

 

Fall- fallen leaves, bare trees (we do have some), food stockpiling, bare bushes (we have some),

 

Winter - snow of course. Easiest season to signify, but that could also make it hardest to pull off well. Nice sculpted snowbanks (which TDM excels at with patches and Dromed did not - I know, Crom's Blade was all snow), footsteps (follow someone somewhere?), snowed in, madness, no food...

 

Of course any of these can be inside/outside. In a city, a manor, a cave, ruins...

 

I really don't see any limits.

--------------

 

I just see it funny that the first posts are

 

'I can't do this' followed by ' nobody should make any comments if they aren't involved'.

 

This is a creative endeavor and limiting yourself instantly completely goes against the spirit of the contest, but trying to knock it down for everyone else because your creativity cannot handle it is pathetic imo.

 

I'm actually very intruiged and it sounds fun, I've just got a big project already underway and I need full focus on it right now.

-----------

Other suggestions about 1.03 or werewolves I don't think are good.

 

1st, most people, possibly judges aren't going to know what 1.03 contains seperate from 1.02. We want to promote TDM, not a single update.

 

2nd, it is quite likely that things like women (1.03) will be used anyway. It's part of the whole package and a much needed part. However judging someone better just because they used a female where another mission might not have...

I don't want to see 10 new missions packed with women, horses and werebeasts, just 10 new creative missions.

 

3rd. see 2nd, a bunch of werebeast missions at once? nah, that kind of kills them forever. Spread them out, if we see one or two missions with them cool, if not, they'll be used at some point anyway.

 

-------

As far as assets, it can be tougher to get them into game than other games such as T2. But that depends. We have a lot of materials and I've quite a few models with them. Not everything needs a specific normal map/spec map to look good. Not everything needs to be 'next gen' to be exceptable. If you can model for T2 you can model for TDM.

 

If someone is having trouble getting it into game, we're here, someone can/will help.

 

Textures aren't harder, just higher res, and the Thief community has plenty of people good at making textures. The only difference in material files, and those can be copy/pasted. Pretty easy.

So things like yellow leaves, hue adjust, material file, done.

 

How many things really are season specific? Got a graveyard, want snow on tombstones, use patches. They can be used for a lot of shapes, I wrapped bread in paper patches in Rift.

 

-------

I still personally think size limitation has always been good.

 

It helps authors not get carried away (which can and does happen), especially newer authors that might at first think they can get away with a huge sprawling layout, then 2 months in realize they have no chance of finishing.

 

I like how Komag used to do it. You get like 4 squares of a certain size, you can put them together however you like (T shape, L bend, straight)

It doesn't have to be cramped sizes, it just helps people focus for the time limit and ultimately produces better looking missions because peoplke spend more time detailing and less time going big.

[Sotha]

I just see it funny that the first posts are

 

'I can't do this' followed by ' nobody should make any comments if they aren't involved'.

 

This is a creative endeavor and limiting yourself instantly completely goes against the spirit of the contest, but trying to knock it down for everyone else because your creativity cannot handle it is pathetic imo.

 

Funny or pathetic or not, we do not have many participants yet. Luckily this thread is still young and the situation may change. But the contest atmosphere is getting somehow even more ugly imo with disrespectful postings. I did give full justification why non-involved comments aren't very useful. At present it is quite important to know who IS entering the contest.

 

Everyone is going "blah blah my opinion, oh I'm not participating."

 

The contest needs participants more than empty opinions. The contest should be interesting enough to draw participants.

 

Next time we really need to first get interested mappers in and then THEY choose what THEY would like to make. Now we seem to have a theme, which is generally supported by people who do not care to enter the contest at all. Silly.

 

The theme is "Seasons!" Interested participants, please step forth. Others, please give room to the contestants.

[Baddcog]

What can I say, I'm supporting the theme and giving reasons why there should be no reason not to run with the theme, there are no limitations other than the ones you self impose.

 

You seem to be the only one who 'won't compete because of the theme', you also seem to be saying the theme won't attract mappers because YOU don't care for it.

 

If mappers aren't interested in competing now I think it has little to do with a basically unlimited theme. Personally I am intrigued by the theme, but just cannot draw myself away from my current project. Doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion on the TDM PUBLIC forums about it. Doesn't make it Silly because I have more important things to do right now.

 

You're the first one to respond negatively, then tell everyone if they are going to respond negatively they should just not respond at all.

[STiFU]

Uh.. Surely we cannot start revoting again? That would look like the EU Bosses did not like the previous democratic result, so they keep revoting until they get the wanted result. Not good. I think we are stuck with seasons now.

Hehe, I wasn't requesting a re-vote. I just didn't see the final scores (How were they?). The last time I checked "Dark Secret" was still leading and I was expecting a 1v1-showdown between this theme and "Seasons", because there was not vast majority for either one.

[Sotha]

Oh dear.. Now I need to start explaining myself. I'll do so for your entertainment, but it will shove this thread to off-topic and repetition. In respect to this thread I will not discuss this any further so you get the final say in your possible reply if you want.

 

What can I say, I'm supporting the theme and giving reasons why there should be no reason not to run with the theme, there are no limitations other than the ones you self impose.

 

But we already chose together the theme. The theme is of course going to stay. This was my point in post #9.

 

You seem to be the only one who 'won't compete because of the theme', you also seem to be saying the theme won't attract mappers because YOU don't care for it.

 

Incorrect. As seen in post #2 I blame general lack of time. I do mention the theme is difficult, but in post #9 I show that many things can be done with the theme. I am not against the theme.

 

If mappers aren't interested in competing now I think it has little to do with a basically unlimited theme. Personally I am intrigued by the theme, but just cannot draw myself away from my current project. Doesn't mean I can't voice my opinion on the TDM PUBLIC forums about it. Doesn't make it Silly because I have more important things to do right now.

 

Your actions are not silly. The general situation where mostly non-participating people support the theme is silly. But lets see, I hope I am incorrect and we do get a nice amount of mappers for this contest.

 

You're the first one to respond negatively, then tell everyone if they are going to respond negatively they should just not respond at all.

 

Yes. I suddenly realised the same thing will happen that happened with the first thread related with this contest. The thread gets filled with all kinds of opinions. Everyone is correct somehow. Then it is impossible to make any kind of decision and the thing dies down for a long time. I can only assert that my intentions are good. Luckily nbohr sees my though here and picks up a "strong führer" role in the contest lead.

 

Last time it was just beautiful. Fids said: "Vertical" and the mappers came to him with joy.